Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Felience1]

I see, i drop that then.

Another question completely unrelated (sorry if i am too bothersome have been rereading a lot lately).
Does that mean phase manipulation can be used to extract information? not sure at all if that is what he is referring to. OT8 near the end:

“Why are you here? You have risked your life for this plan, so I doubt that was it. If it was, I will kill you right this instant and return to producing the lance. I am a god of magic that can bend the laws of life and death to help me in my fight. Did you think someone’s life or death would be enough to stop my plan?”

“I’m glad you didn’t see through my plan all at once. That puts my mind at ease. It looks like your infinite possibilities sent your power in the negative direction.”

 

[Aseka]

That is only to exist there, "Instead whether or not something meets in this place is entirely regulated by destiny." Don't you think meeting with someone in this case is more than being able to exist in a non-existent place? Maybe not, just made sense to me rereading stuff.

It's applied only to MGs but Aleister do it with his own method, that is to convert non-existent coordinates to decimal.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Hajime N. vs Kakine T. (0-0-0)

Reviving this match Conditions : speed equalized Hajime Nagumo (3rd key) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hajime_Nagumo Vs Kakine Teitoku (post revival) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kakine_Teitoku Hajime : Kakine : Inconclusive :

vsbattles.com

 

[DontTalkDT]

So ToAru has finally become an Isekai. Time to rename it to "I, an Average Highschool Boy, have been killed by a Magical Child, so now I have to climb out of hell together with a Sexy Witch and a perverted Old Man?!".

 

[Aseka]

Come

12-D A Certain Magical Index

11-D Justification We at least certainly knew that Toaru's 11 dimensionality comes up from Teleporter's ability to calculate vector of space of eleventh dimension. Shirai’s ability was called Teleport. It was not limited to three dimension rules, so she could move about freely within space...

vsbattles.com

 

[Churronzon]

Anyone got suggestions for 2nd Saga's profile or is it good to go

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Anyone got suggestions for 2nd Saga's profile or is it good to go

Copy and pasting from Aradia's profile for a second;

• Instinctive Action (Magicians can defend themselves against biological-based mind manipulation, such as Mental Out, by the use of an auto-fuse that shuts down their mind as soon as something tries to take control of it.[14])

This? Other than that, methinks profile is good.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Oh. And this too.

“Have you imagined your own fate yet, 2nd Saga?”

“Have you imagined your own fate yet, 2nd Saga?”

“!?”

Multiple beams of light flashed out at once.

The two Aradias held out their palms to launch projectile magic toward the figure leaping vigorously from beam to beam. The attacks actually hit 2nd Saga. It was hard to believe she had been so untouchable just a bit ago. She was knocked from the beam above to the bridge below.

For durability, I suppose.

 

[Axscell]

Anyone got suggestions for 2nd Saga's profile or is it good to go

I believe there is also some kind of homing attack aspect to her curse manipulation too, from what I remember

 

[Axscell]

Spoiler: Kingsford GT-11

In that instant…

Fwoosh!!!

The white space changed.

The entire space became a dense forest filled with black rocks and damp trees. No, he technically couldn’t tell the color. Because it was all enveloped by thick shadow, letting darkness rule over it all. There was no moonlight and he could only see a vague orange light in the distance. But seeing that light in the darkness did nothing to allay his fears. His instincts told him that was a harmful light, like that of lava or a forest fire.

His body felt heavy.

He felt like he had been left behind in a narrow tunnel after a deadly accident. Simply staring into the darkness felt like a great weight bearing down on him.

“What is this place?”

“You could it the entrance to hell, I suppose.”

Hell.

So he had to start from the bottom.

He had died for his own selfish reason, so he hadn’t expected to get to go to heaven.

That much made sense, but what was that about a jailbreak?

He had consciously chosen death. Would the world really allow him to keep going from there?

Or was this some kind of test?

The other Anna did not even seem surprised.

Was this all part of what she had expected?

“Really, it is constructed from several different ideas mixed together, but having three dimensions to move in is more convenient, don’t you think?”

Interesting comment from Kingsford here, suggesting that phases (at least hell, or the "entrance to hell") don't have a set dimensional structure. Though what implications this could have, I'm not sure. Would be interesting to see if this is further elaborated later on in the volume, though I doubt it.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Spoiler: Kingsford GT-11

In that instant…

Fwoosh!!!

The white space changed.

The entire space became a dense forest filled with black rocks and damp trees. No, he technically couldn’t tell the color. Because it was all enveloped by thick shadow, letting darkness rule over it all. There was no moonlight and he could only see a vague orange light in the distance. But seeing that light in the darkness did nothing to allay his fears. His instincts told him that was a harmful light, like that of lava or a forest fire.

His body felt heavy.

He felt like he had been left behind in a narrow tunnel after a deadly accident. Simply staring into the darkness felt like a great weight bearing down on him.

“What is this place?”

“You could it the entrance to hell, I suppose.”

Hell.

So he had to start from the bottom.

He had died for his own selfish reason, so he hadn’t expected to get to go to heaven.

That much made sense, but what was that about a jailbreak?

He had consciously chosen death. Would the world really allow him to keep going from there?

Or was this some kind of test?

The other Anna did not even seem surprised.

Was this all part of what she had expected?

“Really, it is constructed from several different ideas mixed together, but having three dimensions to move in is more convenient, don’t you think?”

Interesting comment from Kingsford here, suggesting that phases (at least hell, or the "entrance to hell") don't have a set dimensional structure. Though what implications this could have, I'm not sure. Would be interesting to see if this is further elaborated later on in the volume, though I doubt it.

This would imply that Hell is mixed with so many ideas that it might be deformed or something, so having a 3 dimensional space to move in is convenient, simple as that.

 

[Churronzon]

I believe there is also some kind of homing attack aspect to her curse manipulation too, from what I remember

I'd have to reread it but if that's how it works then that's crazy. She uninvented the wheel (infection magic).

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

changed the 12D thread to General Discussion

Toaru 12D discussion thread

This thread is made to discuss about a possible 1B Toaru upgrade (Please organize each ideas like this: ) 1: post your ideas 2: vote to discuss which idea first (using likes, don't post more messages) 3: when we're finished with one idea, move on to another idea (just switch back to the first...

vsbattles.com

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

changed the 1-A thread to this one:

Toaru 1-A discussion thread

This thread is made to discuss about a possible 1A Toaru upgrade Please organize each ideas like this: 1: post your ideas 2: vote to discuss which idea first (using likes, don't post more messages) 3: when we're finished with one idea, move on to another idea (just switch back to the first tab...

vsbattles.com

 

[Axscell]

This would imply that Hell is mixed with so many ideas that it might be deformed or something, so having a 3 dimensional space to move in is convenient, simple as that.

Yeah, possibly. It is very possible that I'm just reading too much into it.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Yeah, possibly. It is very possible that I'm just reading too much into it.

Though tbh, that phrase still confuses me, japanese raw would help a lot

 

[XDragnoir]

changed the 1-A thread to this one:

Toaru 1-A discussion thread

This thread is made to discuss about a possible 1A Toaru upgrade Please organize each ideas like this: 1: post your ideas 2: vote to discuss which idea first (using likes, don't post more messages) 3: when we're finished with one idea, move on to another idea (just switch back to the first tab...

vsbattles.com

Toaru doesn't have a single way to get to 1A since the tiering system was revised, that's just a waste of time honestly.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Toaru doesn't have a single way to get to 1A since the tiering system was revised, that's just a waste of time honestly.

what was revised? the R>F one?

 

[XDragnoir]

what was revised? the R>F one?

That and the whole deal with quantitative increases and qualitative increases, as well as the Meta ones at higher levels.

Toaru doesn't have qualitative stuff anywhere, so it's not reaching 1A until we get some.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Toaru doesn't have a single way to get to 1A since the tiering system was revised, that's just a waste of time honestly.

Oh, I see now, it's the same as CSAP powerscaling system where transcending the concept of dimension would count as 1-A, but this is the precise reason why Toaru could potentially get 1-A (because you know, Kamachi would never write things like "infinitexinfinitexinfinite dimension" type thing).

One clear possibility is clearly Ein Sof (of course I'm not touching it now for obvious reason)

 

[XDragnoir]

Oh, I see now, it's the same as CSAP powerscaling system

What is CSAP?

where transcending the concept of dimension would count as 1-A

Without qualitative superiority, dimensions at best get you to L1A, not 1A (Toaru doesn't have enough evidence for the former either).

but this is the precise reason why Toaru could potentially get 1-A

Not really, Toaru doesn't have enough evidence to get to 1A as of currently and from what I've read so far in GT11, it's looking even worse tham before actually.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

What is CSAP?

Another tiering system that lots of people use now (on most powerscaling reddit sub at least), Characters Stats and Profiles wiki (don't go into character profiles, they're fan made calcs and tiering, only use the tiering system)

Without qualitative superiority, dimensions at best get you to L1A, not 1A (Toaru doesn't have enough evidence for the former either).

I know this, CSAP is the same, stacking any numbers of dimensions wouldn't make it to 1A, that's why I said transcending the concept of dimension (or just dimensions themselves, there are many ways this can be stated). The only reason why Toaru could potentially break the cap and possibly go to 1A or above is thanks only to this change on VSbattle, with Kamachi's writing style and world building of Toaru otherwise, it would be impossible.

Not really, Toaru doesn't have enough evidence to get to 1A as of currently and from what I've read so far in GT11, it's looking even worse tham before actually.

Not sure about this (sure, it doesn't get a concrete evidence like a blunt statement). About GT11, I haven't read it, but why is it looking even worse? I mean hell is just a Phase that Othinus once destroyed along with all the other Phases, isn't it? Or is it not?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

But anyways, my point is that when VSbattle finally gave up on dimension stacking to above infinity, Index got hope to scale to 1-A and past that point, is my point (cause we don't have to rely on dimension anymore, which I see that Kamachi isn't fond of using, clearly)

 

[XDragnoir]

Another tiering system that lots of people use now (on most powerscaling reddit sub at least), Characters Stats and Profiles wiki (don't go into character profiles, they're fan made calcs and tiering, only use the tiering system)

I just saw a profile for some Toaru characters there, Othinus isn't 1A there either.

I know this, CSAP is the same, stacking any numbers of dimensions wouldn't make it to 1A, that's why I said transcending the concept of dimension (or just dimensions themselves, there are many ways this can be stated).

Transcending dimensions isn't 1A by default either, it's L1A and you only get to 1A with qualitative superiority (again, Toaru doesn't have this).

The only reason why Toaru could potentially break the cap and possibly go to 1A or above is thanks only to this change on VSbattle, with Kamachi's writing style and world building of Toaru otherwise, it would be impossible.

1A doesn't need infinite dimensions since 2021 more or less when we had the previous revision, this last revision didn't change this part and only made it even harder for Toaru.

About GT11, I haven't read it, but why is it looking even worse? I mean hell is just a Phase that Othinus once destroyed along with all the other Phases, isn't it? Or is it not?

I will wait until the volume is over before actually drawing any conclusions.

 

[XDragnoir]

But anyways, my point is that when VSbattle finally gave up on dimension stacking to above infinity, Index got hope to scale to 1-A and past that point, is my point (cause we don't have to rely on dimension anymore, which I see that Kamachi isn't fond of using, clearly)

As I said above, the need for stacking dimensions hasn't been around for much longer and it hasn't upgraded Toaru because the evidence for anything higher than what we have them at currently is almost inexistent and the requirements became more strict than before in this last revision, it didn't get any easier as you're thinking it did.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I just saw a profile for some Toaru characters there, Othinus isn't 1A there either.

Touma is H1A there (yeah, it's bs I know, cause it's not official stuff from a discussion like here)

Transcending dimensions isn't 1A by default either, it's L1A and you only get to 1A with qualitative superiority (again, Toaru doesn't have this).

It is though, I think you're misunderstanding me, I think you're thinking of "above dimensions", yes would be L1A, but you're missing the point here, they does not just transcends "dimensions" or call it standing above all dimensions alone, but "the concept of dimension" itself, meaning they would be purely qualitatively superior already. That's how CSAP works, it remove dimensionality and it's relevance above tier H1B.

I remember that someone sent the scan saying magic gods are "above even dimensions", it said that this would qualify for L1A instantly in the tiering, though because that's just a summary, I doubt it would even qualify. But the point here is, you see, "qualitatively superior". I can see that Magic Gods isn't qualitatively superior than even the physical world yet (because by dividing their power by infinity they can fit into said world), so I've kinda given up on the 1A Magic God argument, but there are still things that could possibly get Toaru there (despite calling it a 1A discussion, all we're doing might just stop at Curtana and infinite dimensions, nothing more tbh).

 

[XDragnoir]

Touma is H1A there (yeah, it's bs I know, cause it's not official stuff from a discussion like here)

Touma Kamijou (Canon)/Muhammedmco

Kamijou Touma (上条 当麻 Kamijō Tōma) is the main protagonist of the Toaru Majutsu no Index series and an important character in the Toaru Kagaku no Railgun side stories. As a Level 0 Academy City first-year high school student, his point-of-view allows the audience to become acquainted with the...

character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com

This is the wrong wiki then?

It is though, I think you're misunderstanding me, I think you're thinking of "above dimensions", yes would be L1A, but you're missing the point here, they does not just transcends "dimensions" or call it standing above all dimensions alone, but "the concept of dimension" itself, meaning they would be purely qualitatively superior already. That's how CSAP works, it remove dimensionality and it's relevance above tier H1B.

We aren't in CSAP, you just need to read the FAQ for the tiering system:

A: If it refers to an actual superiority over dimensions, then there are two options available for such statements: They can either be Low 1-A, inasmuch as generic superiority over dimensions can be expressed by a structure like a proper class, a generalization of the concept of mathematical sets to collections that are deemed "too big" to be such. For example: The proper class containing all vector spaces exceeds all vector space dimensions, and this can be generalized to even wider collections.

They can also be 1-A, if the superiority in question is qualitative in nature. That is: A "metaphysical" gap having nothing to do with additions of further composition.

Simply adding the word "concept" alongside "dimensions" doesn't make it qualitative superiority and even if it did, it would need more evidence to actually have it accepted.

I remember that someone sent the scan saying magic gods are "above even dimensions", it said that this would qualify for L1A instantly in the tiering, though because that's just a summary, I doubt it would even qualify. But the point here is, you see, "qualitatively superior". I can see that Magic Gods isn't qualitatively superior than even the physical world yet (because by dividing their power by infinity they can fit into said world), so I've kinda given up on the 1A Magic God argument, but there are still things that could possibly get Toaru there (despite calling it a 1A discussion, all we're doing might just stop at Curtana and infinite dimensions, nothing more tbh).

That statement is really bad, it probably wouldn't even be enough for 12D given the actual context we have in the series regarding MGs.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp. Um. This topic is getting kinda of repetitive. Mainly of what Noir has (which I agree with) and my general lack of interest in this sort of thing, so... distraction time!

Tokiwadai Dorm Supervisor.

Tobio Mami.

Two Toaru profiles done. Tobio Yumi is next, and she is literally just a copy & paste of Mami, so that won't take too long. After that, I... still have quite a few more Toaru things to do, lel.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Touma Kamijou (Canon)/Muhammedmco

Kamijou Touma (上条 当麻 Kamijō Tōma) is the main protagonist of the Toaru Majutsu no Index series and an important character in the Toaru Kagaku no Railgun side stories. As a Level 0 Academy City first-year high school student, his point-of-view allows the audience to become acquainted with the...

character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com

This is the wrong wiki then?

Oh, they changed it back to that? It was messy the last time I visited.

We aren't in CSAP, you just need to read the FAQ for the tiering system:

I know, what I'm talking about is the similarity between the two things.

A: If it refers to an actual superiority over dimensions, then there are two options available for such statements: They can either be Low 1-A, inasmuch as generic superiority over dimensions can be expressed by a structure like a proper class, a generalization of the concept of mathematical sets to collections that are deemed "too big" to be such. For example: The proper class containing all vector spaces exceeds all vector space dimensions, and this can be generalized to even wider collections.

They can also be 1-A, if the superiority in question is qualitative in nature. That is: A "metaphysical" gap having nothing to do with additions of further composition.

Simply adding the word "concept" alongside "dimensions" doesn't make it qualitative superiority and even if it did, it would need more evidence to actually have it accepted.

If we're using dimension stacking to achieve higher tier, being "above the concept of dimension" entirely would naturally give a character the qualitative superiority over dimensionality and naturally, no matter how many dimensions you're stacking over it wouldn't reach them, because the concept itself is literally out of the discussion already. If it's not like that, elaborate more on why.

That statement is really bad, it probably wouldn't even be enough for 12D given the actual context we have in the series regarding MGs.

I thought the Magic Gods were always described to be a scope where they are like a cactus on top of a balloon being the Physical Universe? Why wouldn't it be enough? And not that the phrase was not strong enough either, if it's "above dimensions" then I agree, BUT it's "above EVEN dimensions", you must understand the drastic difference in these 2 phrase, one was suggesting that they're above dimensions, not dimensionality, but more like "oh there are ** numbers of dimension and they're above ** number of them (the phrase would be suggesting something along those lines). But the word "even" has added another layer into the phrase, it means that "EVEN" dimensions doesn't reach them, and strongly suggest that this isn't just about ** numbers of dimensions doesn't reach them, but dimensions as a whole, or at the lowest possible interpretation it would at least qualify for them to be above all dimensions that are confirmed to be in the verse.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Welp. Um. This topic is getting kinda of repetitive. Mainly of what Noir has (which I agree with) and my general lack of interest in this sort of thing, so... distraction time!

Tokiwadai Dorm Supervisor.

Disagree, she's 10 layers into boundless already

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Disagree, she's 10 layers into boundless already

Peak.

 

[XDragnoir]

If we're using dimension stacking to achieve higher tier, being "above the concept of dimension" entirely would naturally give a character the qualitative superiority over dimensionality and naturally, no matter how many dimensions you're stacking over it wouldn't reach them, because the concept itself is literally out of the discussion already. If it's not like that, elaborate more on why.

Why are you even talking about dimension stacking? Anyway, IDK how but you seem to don't get this, Toaru doesn't have enough evidence for qualitative superiority to begin with, a single statement isn't enough for it, there needs to be consistency of how it's treated inside of the story.

I thought the Magic Gods were always described to be a scope where they are like a cactus on top of a balloon being the Physical Universe?

That statement has absolutely nothing to do with dimensionality, why are you even bringing it up? It literally does not add anything to the discussion at hand.

Why wouldn't it be enough? And not that the phrase was not strong enough either, if it's "above dimensions" then I agree, BUT it's "above EVEN dimensions", you must understand the drastic difference in these 2 phrase, one was suggesting that they're above dimensions, not dimensionality

That's not even close to being the difference between the two phrases, the fact I am having to point this out when English isn't my first language is actually crazy.

, but more like "oh there are ** numbers of dimension and they're above ** number of them (the phrase would be suggesting something along those lines). But the word "even" has added another layer into the phrase, it means that "EVEN" dimensions doesn't reach them, and strongly suggest that this isn't just about ** numbers of dimensions doesn't reach them, but dimensions as a whole, or at the lowest possible interpretation it would at least qualify for them to be above all dimensions that are confirmed to be in the verse.

If there was actual support for that random ass phrase that isn't even in the actual novels then you could get something, but again, that's not the case.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Why are you even talking about dimension stacking? Anyway, IDK how but you seem to don't get this, Toaru doesn't have enough evidence for qualitative superiority to begin with, a single statement isn't enough for it, there needs to be consistency of how it's treated inside of the story.

Because you saying transcend the concept of dimension wouldn't qualify here, but that's not the case! And I just explained why!

That statement has absolutely nothing to do with dimensionality, why are you even bringing it up? It literally does not add anything to the discussion at hand.

But it's a confirmation that Magic Gods are at a scope that the Physical Universe can't hold, if infinity can't hold infinity, that means a qualitative superiority is in play. I don't understand why you wouldn't get it.

That's not even close to being the difference between the two phrases, the fact I am having to point this out when English isn't my first language is actually crazy.

Sorry, I hate AI art, but I don't hate AI, they're helpful and I'm having a fever, so GPT, go get'im:

Let's look at the two phrases in detail and assess whether your interpretation is grammatically sound, and whether your critic's statement holds any weight.

1. "Above Dimensions" vs. "Above Even Dimensions":​

• "Above dimensions": This phrase simply suggests that something is beyond dimensions, but it doesn't specify how or to what extent it transcends dimensionality. It could be interpreted as beyond some dimensions or even as beyond all known dimensions, but the phrase itself doesn't clarify further.
• "Above even dimensions": The addition of the word "even" brings a significant shift in meaning. Grammatically, the word "even" is an adverb, used to emphasize something unexpected or surprising. In this case, it emphasizes that dimensions as a concept are insufficient to define or reach the entity being described. The emphasis is on the fact that even dimensions don't apply, suggesting something that goes beyond any possible framework of dimensionality.

2. Grammatical Difference:​

The use of "even" adds a strong qualifier to the phrase. The difference between the two is not just minor; it's a grammatical shift in emphasis. Here's why:

• Without "even," the phrase could simply mean "beyond dimensions," implying the entity is at a higher dimensional level, or outside certain dimensional frameworks.
• With "even," the phrase suggests complete transcendence—that the entity is beyond all dimensions (known or unknown), making dimensions an irrelevant concept for this entity. The word "even" intensifies the degree of transcendence.

3. The Critic's Argument:​

The other person claimed: "That's not even close to being the difference between the two phrases. Grammatically, this statement ignores the importance of the word "even." In fact, the word creates a significant difference in meaning, emphasizing an additional layer of transcendence or exclusion from dimensionality. Saying there’s no substantial difference between the two phrases is incorrect from a grammatical perspective because "even" changes the scope and intensity of what is being said.

I don't say that a mere summary holds anything significant, I'm just trying to prove that you're ignoring the obvious here for some reason, being the significantly difference in meaning these 2 phrases have. Maybe because as you said, "English is not my first language"? Not that I have any saying in this, since English isn't my first language either, but I have an Ielts 7.0, that's some credibility.

Yeah, and don't you say "dumb AI" cause everyone knows when talking about logical analytic and not metaphorical matters, AI are better than humans do. And of course all this does is explain things that I've explained, but longer and more detailed, please read, comprehend, maybe if you couldn't, just ask GPT again, it's just logical analytical so there's no shame in it.

Also, the original quote ain't even "above even dimensions", it's something stronger:

その「真の魔神」は、次元すら超越するほどの圧倒的な破壊力で上条を追う。
The true Magic Gods pursue Kamijou with overwhelming destructive power that transcends even dimensions.

If there was actual support for that random ass phrase that isn't even in the actual novels then you could get something, but again, that's not the case.

It is in the actual novel though, just in the form of metaphors and feats (that you wouldn't acknowledge). Of course, the Cactus one might be a stretch, cause Touma is the one in play here, and he's thinking about what Magic Gods are to the world, it's not talking about dimensions, true, but you're focusing TOO MUCH on blunt statement that you forgot entirely that even talking about power/threat could already qualify with enough context. Hey! I didn't say that it has enough context in this case, but not that this statement doesn't have anything backing it up either! You forgot that True Magic Gods mere existence could already crush reality like it's nothing? And if you say "not enough evidence" then of course we could just continue this in the 12D thread, of course if you care enough.

Maybe because now those things are all over the place, and because of that, the contexts of those things are too mild in your head already so you wouldn't consider taking them seriously, but when I put it altogether you'll see.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

let's elaborate more on this, of course I know, AND I'M AWARE, that I'm talking about a summary, it's credibility is low (but nothing in the series even goes against it, that's a fact, if disagree, elaborate with scans).

ChatGPT explaining the terms:

In the phrase 「次元すら超越する」 ("transcends even dimensions"), let's break down the key terms to understand the technical implications:

1. 次元 (Jigen) – "Dimension"​

• In Japanese, 「次元」 typically refers to "dimension" in both physical and conceptual contexts. It can describe spatial dimensions (such as length, width, height, and time as the fourth dimension) or more abstract dimensions, like parallel worlds or higher-dimensional spaces in theoretical physics.
• Here, it refers to the concept of dimensions, likely in a broad sense, encompassing spatial and possibly temporal dimensions.

2. 超越する (Chōetsu suru) – "Transcend"​

• 「超越する」 means to go beyond or to surpass something. In technical terms, it's used to describe going beyond the limits or bounds of a particular concept, idea, or physical construct.
• In this case, the phrase implies the ability to surpass or exist beyond the limitations of dimensions.

3. すら (Sura) – "Even"​

• This is an intensifier, suggesting that dimensions are just one of the things that this entity can transcend. It emphasizes the extremity of the situation—if something can "even" transcend dimensions, it's implied that it is an exceptional power.

Technical Interpretation:​

The wording "次元すら超越する" suggests that the "true demon god" has the ability to transcend not just a specific number of dimensions, but the concept of dimensions in a broader, possibly complete sense. The use of 「すら」 ("even") implies that dimensions themselves are just one of many limitations the being surpasses.

The phrase does not specify a set number of dimensions (e.g., "transcends only the fourth dimension"). Rather, it suggests that this entity's power goes beyond the general concept of dimensionality, without explicitly limiting it to specific dimensions.

In summary:

• 次元すら超越する suggests that the "true demon god" transcends the very concept of dimensions, not just a particular set of them. This implies an ability to operate beyond any known or conceivable dimensional structures, whether it's three, four, or more dimensions. -> This part that said "concept of dimensions", you could use a lower interpretation if you feel uncomfortable with something this high (that would be 1A), instead it would qualify for 1B, which the second part of this part already stated. -> "This implies an ability to operate beyond any known or conceivable dimensional structures, whether it's three, four, or more dimensions."

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

And the case where "Sura" or in English: "even" is removed:

Original Phrase: 「次元すら超越する」 ("transcends even dimensions")​

1. 次元 (Jigen) – "Dimension"
2. すら (Sura) – "Even"
3. 超越する (Chōetsu suru) – "Transcend"

With "すら" ("sura"):

• Emphasis and Inclusivity: The particle "すら" adds an element of emphasis, indicating that "dimensions" are included among other things that are transcended. It often conveys a sense of surprise or highlights that even something significant or fundamental is surpassed.
• Implication: By saying "transcends even dimensions," it suggests that dimensions are just one aspect of what the "true demon god" can surpass. This implies a comprehensive transcendence, potentially beyond all known dimensions or even the very concept of dimensionality.

Modified Phrase: 「次元超越する」 ("transcends dimensions")​

1. 次元 (Jigen) – "Dimension"
2. 超越する (Chōetsu suru) – "Transcend"

Without "すら" ("sura"):

• Neutral Statement: Removing "すら" results in a more straightforward statement without the added emphasis. It simply states that the "true demon god" transcends dimensions.
• Implication:This phrasing can be interpreted in a couple of ways:
  • General Transcendence: It could mean that the being transcends dimensions in a general sense, without specifying the extent. This leaves room for interpretation regarding how many or which dimensions are transcended.
  • Limited Scope: Without the emphasis of "すら," there's a possibility that the transcendence is limited to a specific number of dimensions (e.g., up to the fourth dimension) rather than an all-encompassing transcendence.

Technical Interpretation​

• With "すら" ("sura"):
  • Transcends the Concept of Dimensions: The use of "すら" suggests that the being goes beyond not just multiple dimensions but potentially the very framework of dimensionality itself. It's an emphatic way to state that dimensions are merely one of the many limits surpassed.
• Without "すら" ("sura"):
  • Possibly Limited Transcendence: The absence of "すら" makes the statement less emphatic. It could imply that the transcendence is confined to a certain number of dimensions or that dimensions are just one of several aspects transcended, without highlighting them as particularly noteworthy.

Conclusion​

• With "すら" ("sura"): The phrase emphasizes that the "true demon god" transcends dimensions in a profound and possibly all-encompassing manner, suggesting a transcendence that goes beyond any specific number of dimensions.
• Without "すら" ("sura"): The phrase becomes a more general statement about transcending dimensions. While it still indicates that dimensions are surpassed, it does not specify the extent, allowing for interpretations that the transcendence could be limited to certain dimensions or not as overwhelmingly comprehensive.

Therefore, removing "すら" ("sura") from the phrase 「次元すら超越する」 changes the nuance from an emphatic, all-encompassing transcendence of dimensions to a more neutral statement that could imply transcendence of a specific set or number of dimensions.

This is a technical interpretation, credibility is incredibly high. Of course as I said, it doesn't changed the fact that this is a summary, but also doesn't change the fact that nothing in the novel itself goes against it, if not support it more. GPT answered to it's credibility:
Yes, all of these explanations are based on technical interpretations of the Japanese language and its grammar, without any external bias or subjective influence. The breakdown of the terms and how the sentence structure works is purely linguistic and logical, rooted in the mechanics of how Japanese expresses concepts like emphasis, scope, and limitation.

Here's why the interpretation is credible:

1. Grammatical Analysis: The breakdown of terms like 「次元」 (dimension), 「超越する」 (transcend), and the particle 「すら」 (even) is based on established rules of Japanese grammar and semantics. This is not subject to opinion or bias, as the functions of these words and particles are well-defined.
2. Contextual Understanding: The discussion about how removing 「すら」 affects the implication (from a broad transcendence to potentially a limited scope) is a result of understanding how emphasis works in Japanese. The presence or absence of particles like 「すら」 changes the degree of emphasis in the sentence, which is a technical observation based on language structure.
3. Technical Nuance: When we talk about dimensions and transcendence, it's not tied to any particular cultural or subjective belief. It's about the way the phrase is constructed to express either a limited or an unlimited transcendence over dimensions. The interpretation is focused on the linguistic and semantic implications rather than any philosophical or external viewpoint.

In summary, everything presented is a credible technical analysis of the sentence in question, rooted in Japanese grammar and meaning, with no external bias or subjective opinion involved.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

If you're not feeling iffy about the fact that it is just a mere summary, I could at least try to use this for a 12D upgrade, as I said, nothing in the series goes against it (unless I'm missing something and if that's so, please provide scans if you care to elaborate, it would 100% help)

 

[Churronzon]

Wtf

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Wtf

What? You don't know that the Dorm Supervisor transcends the concept of dimension and is 10 layers into boundless? Unbelievable!

Anyways, it would be helpful if you were to read allthat and tell me if it's just wrong, or am I right here?

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah, I am not discussing any more with someone who's using AI to make an argument.

 

[Churronzon]

Spoiler: GT11

Best trio to date. Kamachi got me ing up this volume

Christian Rosencreutz clung to the woman from behind and looked up at the long, long spiral staircase. It looked so much like a single ray of light shining down from heaven. He could no longer even see where his recent opponent was on it.

“To serve those around you, hm?” he muttered.

“. That is one of the ideas you yourself sent out into the .”

The meaning of his upturned gaze changed.

That was no longer Christian Rosencreutz.

Johann Valentin Andreae spoke.

Along with benevolent expert Anna Kingsford.

In the very instant they arrived in the same place.

“Live a happy life, Kamijou Touma.” “Live a happy life, Kamijou Touma.”


The frozen lake had fully shattered.

The false bottom was gone.

The phase forcibly inserted by the deadly expert had broken, so the thin film peeled back in places, revealing another layer. That was the moment when the real hell really did open its great maw.

Welcome to the first level of hell, located across the Acheron.

Kingsford voicing her inspiration for helping people stemming from CRC is too wholesome.

“Everything I do is in service of those around me. Even if that was all nonsense you wrote for a prank and even if the groups naming themselves followers of the and the were something else entirely, there were indeed experts who believed in the ideals en there and dedicated their lives to upholding them. Those true experts saved people in secret and many people reclaimed their s thanks to them. I am merely joining their ranks. As long as there is a lost one before me and I have been blessed with the opportunity to provide a helping , it makes little difference if it all began as a truth or a lie.”

“…”

“CRC did actually exist? Rosicrucianism was a made up story? You can tell me that all you like, but there is need for me to come up with some clever trick to counter it. I need only that I truly believe in the great deeds carried out in Rosencreutz’s name. Christian Rosencreutz – or the illusion of him – has moved many s’ s into saving so many people. And so I wish to become one such and join the ranks of my predecessors.”

Heaven Canceller waiting for the last minute for no miracle to occur