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Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

Yeah, I am not discussing any more with someone who's using AI to make an argument.
Maybe don't use Genetic Fallacy, would ya? Like I can't debate with someone who's willing to deny whatever the other person has to say. I already explained that I'm not using AI to do any metaphor explaining or anything like that (but you likely didn't even read and of course if you say "I do", I won't trust you because all you had to say is 1 Genetic Fallacy sentence), but to do technical explaining using it's wide database and language knowledge.

As I can see, you're the type of person who will be like "AI stupid I don't care" type of person (I told you not to in my explanation and explained why Chat GPT is reliable in technical matters like this, more than me).

And remember, the AI is only helping me explaining the technical terms more efficiently, I'm the one who noticed the differences first and explained the general reasoning myself, I didn't need to use an AI to explain something this obvious, but you did not listen, so I'm merely using a tool to help with the more technical stuff.

And if you can't bring yourself to care enough for this level of elaboration, then don't agree or disagree from the start, you have to be devoted to the matter at a certain extent to join a conversation and able to bring back something worth our time. You chose not to elaborate again, so don't elaborate anymore, I'll stop here and take care of this myself, you don't need to force your opinions on me, especially when you got nothing of the same worth on your side, no explanations (usually just 1 single sentence that debunked nothing from me), nor did you even answer my question of "does a summary count?", and keep saying "I've seen nothing in the series at that level" when gave literally no anti-statement statements, then when I gave some crazy feat that is in the story itself, you kept diverting me from the problem, like for example, the Magic Gods dividing themselves to infinity, even if it's their power or their existence, it does not matter because that still qualify for a quantitative superiority (like we're not talking about 1A here, are we? At best would be low 1-A, lowest would be 1-B, we're dealing with quantitative superiority, not qualitative), their power or their existence, it doesn't matter, what matter is the fact that the physical universe (that you already, yourself, agreed that it's 11D) can barely holds their power in it even when divided by infinity. But there are a bunch of them (and the statement was just for one being, one of them just "barely fit" for the universe "For one thing, no one existed who could kill a being that the world could only just barely contain"), so this is not a matter of physical space, but a matter of complexity instead, their power could only be explained as so vast and transcendence that the universe could only "barely holds" when it was divided by infinity as in the symbol itself (Nepthys used this symbol iirc). Even if they're not 1-B, they would still be 12D, we're talking about if Toaru is 12D or not, not if Magic Gods are 1-B or not, though they're clearly 1-B (through Phase Manipulation, they can create an infinite dimension (not infinite dimension as in H1B, it's just a dimension that's infinite, literally) in a Phase to hold all their power without the reality collapsing, and don't say that "it's empty", YEAH I KNOW, because we're not talking about matter destruction here, bruh, it was never about matter destruction, because reality itself is the one in danger here, always has been, even Dragon King created unfixable holes in reality itself by existing too, he and the Magic God will do the same thing to the poor Physical Universe if they exists and move carelessly in it, they are clearly described to be the same case, if not worse for the Magic Gods).

The scans for the existence layering spell is literally on the vsbattle wiki, in Zombie's profile, you could just go look it up yourself if you want. And remember, whether it's their existence or their power was layered, it did not matter, the effect of the 2 on the physical world is the same, and now that I think again, using science to explain the Magic Gods was stupid of me, I should've realized this from the start, bruh.

The Summary for that same volume where the True Magic Gods rampaged were literally "their power transcends even dimensions", taken from the Japanese scans itself since I've seen that there are some mistranslation that removed the word "even" on the internet. We have way more than enough contexts to upgrade Toaru to 12D, whether the Magic Gods are 1-B or not, I'll have to see.
 
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Maybe don't use Genetic Fallacy, would ya? Like I can't debate with someone who's willing to deny whatever the other person has to say. I already explained that I'm not using AI to do any metaphor explaining or anything like that (but you likely didn't even read and of course if you say "I do", I won't trust you because all you had to say is 1 Genetic Fallacy sentence), but to do technical explaining using it's wide database and language knowledge.
I didn't deny the validity of anything you said, I just don't have any interest to keep a debate with an AI, simply as that. So don't put words in my mouth, thanks.
 
I didn't deny the validity of anything you said, I just don't have any interest to keep a debate with an AI, simply as that. So don't put words in my mouth, thanks.
Then you back out, correct? Of course this doesn't mean that I'm automatically right, but it also mean you couldn't refute my statement anymore as you don't want to elaborate anymore. As I said (I hoped you have at least read that comment you just replied to), the AI isn't debating with you, it's a tool I used to explain technical terms, the same thing you could get with a dictionary. You refute my logic, so I proved it using a more technical approach, but at the end, the logic is still mine, you're still debating with my logic. You did nothing to properly deny the validity of it (my logic before I used the AI to back it up with more proves) but you still said that it's wrong and doesn't mean anything like that, but you're wrong, and I used a 100% technical way to prove that, but now you denied even the tool I used to do that.

Basically, my logic has the dictionary + the raw Japanese scans to back it up, and you had nothing, that's your loss and you have no rights to deny my logic anymore, until you decide to actually and properly elaborate more on the matter, with an actual technical way to prove I'm wrong. As I said, I can't debate with a person who could even refuse my logic without even a proper logic.
 
And before you say "oh but the AI is actually explaining why" then let me tell you, it's basically saying the same stuff I had been saying at the start, as it's an obvious answer that everyone should know, or at least if they fumbled once, they should realize on the second try.
 
you still said that it's wrong and doesn't mean anything like that
Let me give you an example of why I think your interpretation is wrong then:

Example without "even": "They have control over everything... life, death and dimensions".

With "even": "They have control over everything, life, death and even dimensions".

"Even" doesn't somehow change it from "dimensions" to "the totality of dimensionality" or anything like that, it simply serves to indicate it's one among other things.

"Oh but it's a summary idk idk something something" I don't really care about that, I've seen similar stuff being used as evidence and similar stuff being rejected here in the wiki, my problem is this wording not being used inside of the novels AFAIK, nothing about they transcending dimensions was ever brought up.

"Oh but they would destroy the world upon entering it, yada yada too complex yada yada infinite", the Physical Universe isn't infinite, the power of the Magic Gods is, this doesn't make the MGs higher than the universe, erasing reality also doesn't mean anything for being 12D, 1A or anything else.

"Oh the Dragon King did XYZ" he didn't create a hole in reality: "If he had stepped with greater purpose, it might have triggered an inwards gravitational collapse in that space, creating an irreparable hole" it's only raised as a possibility in this moment and never again and we don't know if it was literal, there's no way to know if this was meant to be literal and even if it was... this isn't a 12D feat, or anything to do with higher tiers, this doesn't help with anything.

Want an actual answer? Here it is. Don't waste your time answering to any of this if you disagree, nor will I waste mine answering to anything further from you or others, nor will I participate in any threads on this topic in the future, wanna upgrade the verse to 1A, H1A, 0? Go ahead.
 
Hi, i would be grateful if everyone who has time gives their take. I made a post with everything from the thread so is easy to follow and also separated it in categories. Thanks to everyone for the input.
 
Let me give you an example of why I think your interpretation is wrong then:

Example without "even": "They have control over everything... life, death and dimensions".

With "even": "They have control over everything, life, death and even dimensions".

"Even" doesn't somehow change it from "dimensions" to "the totality of dimensionality" or anything like that, it simply serves to indicate it's one among other things.
I won't argue about the lower part, put this part, you still don't understand anything at all.
The word "even" has 2 common applications, this is one of them. Examples do the best:
1st. addition to a group: "I can control everything, even concepts itself!" -> He controls everything, concepts are just one of the things he can control.
2nd. Make the sentence stronger: "They transcends even dimensions!" -> The "even" here is to make the statement stronger, as I already explained, you would see a person saying this with the meaning: "they transcends dimensions itself, or at least all of them", not "they only transcend the **th out of 11 dimensions".

It could also mean negatively: "He even fail the test!".

You gave a bad, really really bad example without proper understanding of the word "even". And even more than that, the word "even", or "sura" in Japanese has an even stronger effect on a sentence in the 2nd case.
 
This should be dealt in the disscussion thread btw. I don't think XDragoir wants to deal with this. He will go there if he wants to talk about it.
I won't argue about the lower part, put this part, you still don't understand anything at all.
The word "even" has 2 common applications, this is one of them. Examples do the best:
1st. addition to a group: "I can control everything, even concepts itself!" -> He controls everything, concepts are just one of the things he can control.
2nd. Make the sentence stronger: "They transcends even dimensions!" -> The "even" here is to make the statement stronger, as I already explained, you would see a person saying this with the meaning: "they transcends dimensions itself, or at least all of them", not "they only transcend the **th out of 11 dimensions".

It could also mean negatively: "He even fail the test!".

You gave a bad, really really bad example without proper understanding of the word "even". And even more than that, the word "even", or "sura" in Japanese has an even stronger effect on a sentence in the 2nd case.
 
This should be dealt in the disscussion thread btw. I don't think XDragoir wants to deal with this. He will go there if he wants to talk about it.
Tbh we're just debating over some simple logical matters, it's not that I'm gonna use this for a 1-B upgrade or anything (and I won't, I'm not stupid enough to rely solely on a summary). I think it's time to end this meaningless matter.
 
Also, isn't there's an entity in that Hell that can damaged souls? Iirc Johann attempted to fusion with Demon Lord but he can withstand with Demon Lord's presence even though it can shatters the soul itself.
Huh, I just finished GT11 and didn't catch that. Thanks, Aseka.
 

Let's just get this out of the way. I'm just so-so on it. Just thinking of it as the last step before the Crowned Dragon King Revision.
 
Am i blind or Aleister doesn't have Soul Manipulation? He destroyed the spheres in Qliphah soul and could have destroyed in entirely by destroying the paths too in NT20 right?
 
Tryna find where the Toaru wiki got the part about God's determinism where they sourced: The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly Palmer Hall (1928), "Rosicrucian Doctrines and Tenets"

But I could only find the part about breaking the glass container when they detect the disease plaguing the world.
“I wondered what trump card you would rely on in the end, but all you did was break the glass container? That one normally sleeps within his coffin, but he naturally awakens when he locates the disease plaguing this world and returns to his coffin once he is no longer needed. Producing the world-healing elixir is all well and good, but how long can you last like this?
Kanzaki, looking like her heart would stop beating any second, said, “Angels cannot kill
humans without an order from God, and yet...have you even forgotten that, Power of
God? The number of souls to be judged during the ‘final judgment’ in the New
Testament is decided ahead of time. You would understand that killing people so
carelessly now would equate to bringing that judgment to ruin! You told us that!”

He felt like he’d heard that from Tsuchimikado before.

He said that God would come down to Earth at the end of the world, then decide on a
case-by-case basis who would go to heaven and who would go to hell. The results were
actually set in stone from the beginning, so if an angel killed people imprudently, then
those results would go wrong or something.

Leaving religious notions behind, the logic was a sort of time paradox. If it killed
someone who was never originally supposed to be killed, their children would never be
born. And then their grandchildren and their great-grandchildren—none of them would
be born. Just like how someone who uses a time machine is a transcender who can bend
history to his will, this angel, who was out of position with the history of mankind, had
the power to change mankind’s future and its ultimate end.

A transcender.

edit: Maybe the source is the Bible lol
 
A Trismegistus sandbox.

I'm assuming he can't get a possible Multi-Continental rating for destroying a material Accel couldn't with the planet's rotation since it wouldn't need to specify he did it from the back side.
Several straight lines ran through the thick, explosion-resistant prison wall as it was sliced through, the pieces crumbling away once gravity took over.

That wall was made of the same stuff as the Windowless Building which could theoretically withstand a vector attack by the #1, but it was so easily sliced through from the outside, which was in fact the back side.
 
A Trismegistus sandbox.

I'm assuming he can't get a possible Multi-Continental rating for destroying a material Accel couldn't with the planet's rotation since it wouldn't need to specify he did it from the back side.
Sounds reasonable to me, I suppose.


22 new AP, SS, and Durability justifications + scans added for profiles in my sandbox. 'bout 40 left to go, give or take.

Fun, heh. Goodness. I can't progress with my CRT until my sandbox is complete. I heavily underestimated this task, but I won't give up.
 
Just a feeling.
I mean, is a power scaling web, most people are here for high tiers I guess. I personally prefer the characters I like and just like them to be as accurate as possible and that's it. I understand why you feel that way though.
 
I mean, is a power scaling web, most people are here for high tiers I guess. I personally prefer the characters I like and just like them to be as accurate as possible and that's it. I understand why you feel that way though.
One thing is bring "accurate", the other is pushing for higher tiers when they don't have support or even make sense.
 
I like them myself, but as I said above, I won't push for higher tiers when they're visibly bullshit.
I completely agree with that, don't know if you are referring to me but if you feel I am pushing something you believe is bullshit I would be grateful if you tell me. I really do not want that.
 
I completely agree with that, don't know if you are referring to me but if you feel I am pushing something you believe is bullshit I would be grateful if you tell me. I really do not want that.
I am only talking in general here.
 
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