Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[Axscell]

I don't know if this has been discussed, but it still bugging me.



OT 6 Chapter Between the Lines 1


From the statement above, Kuroko calculate spatial coordinates in eleven dimensions. This meant the vectors she calculated only spatial. So, is it 11 spatial dimensions, not including temporal dimensions, or she calculated the spatial coordinates in eleven dimensions, meaning only 10 spatial dimensions of vectors she calculated?

I have raised this very question with DT before, and this was his response:

Teleporters need to calculate 11-dimensional coordinates, but I don't see a reason why one of those, say the 4th, couldn't be time. That doesn't necessarily mean they can timetravel, though, as they haven't really demonstrated the ability to change their position in that dimension via teleportation.
In general I suspect that the 11 dimensions are a reference to physics theories in which 11 dimensions exist (including time).

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Nice, so High 1-C God Tiers are safe and won't need to face any possible downgrades.

...

Should probably say, as the person who did the CRT in the first place, that I plan on applying the upgrades and downgrades from my CRT to various profiles in the verse soon-ish (am lazy, will admit), and afterwards, when everything is done... I will make more CRTs for the verse to upgrade AP/SS/Dura (there are some leftover feats - around the number on ones' fingers - that I haven't calc'ed yet. At most, it'll upgrade the Level 5s to Low 7-C/7-C tier), Speed, and Lifting Strength... Or, following in the example of other people, I'll do a CRT that updates profiles to make them look fancy & nice while also giving them sources.


My work for the verse is never done, lol. On a side note, I think I should make a match w/Touma (or anyone else, really... like Thor, for example) to celebrate the upgrades.

 

[Doggo]

Just a question should all magicians have flight and mind manipulation in their profiles? cause its stated to be pretty a common spell for them

 

[Doggo]

Should magicans also have resistances for magic base on this?
(from OT9)

At this moment, Tsuchimikado spoke in a tone that was softer than normal.

“No, Kami-yan. We can’t stop here. Besides searching for Oriana, there’s a much worse reason.”

“Eh?”

Kamijou continued to run as he listened to the phone.

“That counterspell may not be just used to target Stiyl’s magic. Once the conditions are met, ordinary people other than us will be endangered.”

“……What did you say?”

Maybe because the arena was nearby, there were a lot more people around him. If it was an actual competition, they’d have finished the admission formalities 10 minutes ago. But this was just a ‘sports meet’, and because the admission conditions were a lot more relaxed, there were many more security guards around.

“Listen carefully, Kami-yan, listen calmly and carefully. What Oriana’s counterspell does is that it ‘reads the preparations to cast the magic, identify the lifeforce of a caster, and prevent the caster from using it.’ Up till now, do you understand?”

“Un, I do.”

Actually, Kamijou didn’t really understand.

Basically, what he knew was that the Shorthand that Oriana had set up could identify Stiyl through some means, and prevent him from using magic.

“But so what?”

“Which means nya……here’s the problem. ‘The preparations to cast the magic,’ do you know what that means?”

“……Ah? About that, I guess……it’s just mumbling about some strange chants, and drawing some magic arrays that no one can understand?”

Even if Kamijou was asked about the process of preparation, as he couldn’t fully grasp ‘what kind of thing magic was,’ he couldn’t answer this clearly.

Tsuchimikado’s tone became even more bitter.

“However, it’s still okay if it’s just like this……Kami-yan. For example, there’s some spell called a……‘spiritual talk’. It’s a spell which uses the significance of speech to determine its power. If it’s this kind of magic preparation, wouldn’t making a sound be enough to activate it?”

Kamijou was terrified.

But, as he was about to reach the problematic middle school, he didn’t stop.

“This is just a complete guess of mine, but if it can really react to this, we have a rather troublesome problem on our hands. Once Oriana is to speak near that Shorthand, she’ll be able to input additional commands into the counterspell, and the other party will fall like Stiyl……if it’s just making a sound, do you think there are any differences between a magician and an ordinary person? It’s dangerous to these ordinary students as well, you know.”

“But is that possible? While Stiyl was down, we were still talking like usual.”

Kamijou rushed past the spectators heading towards the arena, and reached the entrance of the school.

As they had paid the entrance fee when they first arrived in Academy City, there was no need for them to have an entrance pass to enter the arena.

“You’re right nya. There’s an order for the spiritual talk, and there’s a limit to the number of words to be used, like a ballad and a haiku. So just making a sound shouldn’t garner a response……if so, do you know what’s the easiest magic ritual in the world??”

“Eh???”

At the main entrance of the arena, or the school, there were groups crowding the entrances, trying to get in. Kamijou thought, I have to somehow cleverly get past them.

“It’s ‘touch’. The significance of ‘touching with a hand’ is especially large. In many religions, the values of the left hand and the right hand are different, because the left hand and the right hand have their own uses. In the New Testament, the Son of God, who’s especially prominent, is able to heal the sick or revive the dead just by touching them with his right hand. What if Oriana’s Shorthand can react to that?”

“Wait……wait a sec.”

Kamijou stopped.

Tsuchimikado continued,

“We would say that if it was a real magician, just ‘touching’ alone isn’t going to cause anything to happen. ‘Touching’ is a magical action that several religious sects will use, and not just Christianity. Just like this, the ‘analytical conditions’ that uses the caster’s lifeforce may be a little ambiguous. If it’s a professional magician who has some form of defense, they can still reflect the invading attack of the Shorthand—but,”

He paused.

“To any novice who completely doesn’t have any defense, even if there’s a degree of ambiguity, it’ll still be forced to analyze the lifeforce and carry out the attack. Also, without the defense of a magician, the symptoms will be much worse than Stiyl. Like how someone with severe heatstroke can die, they’ll end up endangering their own lives.”

“But……but the spell used to attack Stiyl is a spell that prevents magic, right? Will that react to any non-magicians or espers?”

Running off after he stopped, Kamijou’s movements were slower than before. This was to prevent his legs from tripping due to nervousness.

“Strictly speaking, the target for any response is the ‘lifeforce’ of anyone who is preparing to use magic, so even ordinary people are in danger. This isn’t related to whether it can seal up magic, and it’s likely that it doesn’t matter whether the person has any knowledge of magic. Didn’t the searching spell ‘all-around reality array’ that Stiyl used receive what I drew?”

Kamijou thought, this was the worst case scenario.

From the front of the entrance, one could see the school with a soil ground.

In that school, it seemed that something like a land mine was buried somewhere. As they didn’t know that there was a land mine buried there, many unsuspecting people were heading to the arena where a match was about to occur. This ball tossing match wasn’t going have a fixed route like a 100 meters race, but rather, they were going to use the entire place. Thus, the chance of getting the jackpot was rather large.

“Anyway, Kami-yan, we have to settle this before sacrifices are made. It’ll be bad if there’re signs of magic in front of the camera — either way, I don’t want to hurt any ordinary people.”

The conversation ended.

 

[Doggo]

“Underst… I…the arrangemen…”

She seemed to be losing the signal because Kaizumi’s voice grew more distant.

But then Kumokawa realized that was not what was happening.

(What? It’s my ears…?)

The change was coming from Kumokawa’s own body. She felt an unpleasant pressure in her chest. She first thought it was due to the blood loss, but something was still strange.

(This is similar to a placebo attack using suggestions, but it’s somehow different… What is this? I’ve never seen anything like this before!!)

With one hand still on her face, she leaned on the passageway railing. Her sense of up and down was growing more uncertain. She had no idea if Kaizumi was still speaking from her handheld device or if even if she was still holding the device.

This was…

This was…



https://******************/project/thumb.php?f=NT_Index_v07_159.png&width=300
Tsuchimikado Motoharu moved his bloody lips while lying face up on the staircase.

He was muttering something under his breath.

“Hey, you pieces of shit. It’s time for a sickening job. (I humbly ask your assistance like the iron and the nail.)”

Magic could be divided into the broad categories of infection magic and imitative magic.

The infection category could use objects such as hairs or fingernails. The most popular forms of curse magic would remotely attack the target by destroying a piece of one’s target using a special method.

Yes.

By ripping out her eyeball, he could make a lethal attack on Kumokawa Seria.

“This is like an assembly line. Drive the bullet straight into that bitch’s heart!! (I have a sign to the hated enemy in my hand. Follow this flesh and blood to bind a curse to the owner!!)”

With his curse complete, Tsuchimikado gave the stolen eyeball a light kiss.

He heard a wet coughing sound followed by something heavy collapsing to the ground.

He had successfully neutralized his target.

At the same time, Tsuchimikado’s body shook from blood loss while he lay face up on the floor. The eyeball slipped from his fingers.

He had used magic for the second time.

Every blood vessel in his body cried out. He coughed violently and saw that his saliva was dyed red.

“Ahh…cough, cough!! Cough!! Cough, cough!!”

Sticky blood felt like it would block his throat, but he somehow managed to cough it all up and clear a path for air. He then slowly stood up.

“Didn’t I tell you? You only had the information on me from the science side. Without the magic side data, you could never complete an accurate profile…”

Even children know about the Ushi no Koku Mairi curse. He had used a popular spell that reconstructed it to use just the hair rather than the doll. It could attack a target remotely, but any decent magician would be able to put together a countermeasure as soon as they sensed the signs. It was only effective against those who did not know magic.

Curse manipulation also seems like a common ability with magicians being able to resist them

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw, i have a question.

IRL lightning is 1.6 GJs and that's for cloud-to-cloud lightning, so why does Mikoto scale to a value that is several times that? Shouldn't her lightning be capped at IRL lightning tier?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Eh? Her 7-C lightning ratings don't come from the lightning that comes from when she makes storm clouds to rain down lightning, it comes from the electricity that she generates, i.e, the bolts that she uses to shock Touma - that she also uses to make her railgun and all of her other electromagnetism tricks. Would also like to repeat that I had a CGM look at it and have them give the okay for the 7-C Rating.

... Am still not going to stop on attempting to make Mikoto a straight-up 7-C with her ability due to the fact both of her 8-A ratings come from her Railgun that uses the electricity she generates in the first place.

... that, and I have the 7-C calcs I am making from a few interesting feats, and the possibly High 7-C (or higher) calcs due to Mikoto's feats of messing with cloud that would likely close the AP between the Level 5s (that aren't Accelerator and Post Revival Kakine) and Maidono.

... On a side note, I really should find some time to make edits to the profiles, but I am too damn lazy to do it rn.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Just a question should all magicians have flight and mind manipulation in their profiles? cause its stated to be pretty a common spell for them

Should magicans also have resistances for magic base on this?
(from OT9)

Curse manipulation also seems like a common ability with magicians being able to resist them

Ye, they should... Future CRT stuff, I suppose.

 

[Aseka]

Hey, I wanna ask. What's Trismegistus can do?

 

[Aseka]

“This world was not pure and untouched to begin with. Christian, Buddhist, Celtic, Indian, Shinto, Incan, Aztec, Greek, Roman…and Norse. The various religions have placed layer after layer of various phases over the world like thin veils or filters. There is heaven, hell, the underworld, the Pure Land, Yomi, the abyss, Mount Olympus, the fairy island, Nirai Kanai, Asgard, and many others. At any rate, the world you have seen so far has been viewed through various colors of cellophane.”

Following Othinus's statement, she said that Phases formed because there are many religions over the world.
What if, there is a certain religion, that doesn't have a single worshipper or believer, affecting the Phase? Like, it got destroyed because nobody believes it anymore.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Following Othinus's statement, she said that Phases formed because there are many religions over the world.
What if, there is a certain religion, that doesn't have a single worshipper or believer, affecting the Phase? Like, it got destroyed because nobody believes it anymore.

There is no answer to this, to my knowledge. Is an interesting train of thought that could lead to a decent plot bunny, tho. Back to my den of creating calcs for the To Aru verse! With some luck, I can make another AP revision thread soon! ... and can continue on applying upgrades from my first ToAru CRT since there are some issues with profiles that I need to fix first via new calcs before I can apply my stuff.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hey, I wanna ask. What's Trismegistus can do?

Also, not sure, tbh, GT 7 isn't something I read all that intently. Will fix this issue sooner or later.

 

[Aseka]

There is no answer to this, to my knowledge. Is an interesting train of thought that could lead to a decent plot bunny, tho.

I recall Allan Bennet said something about this when talking with Aleister.

 

[Aseka]

There.

“This world contains as many phases as there are divine legends and religions. And the distance between each phase is not even. The rise and fall of civilizations and traditions affect the power balance in the real world. When you get down to it, fortune is the sparks that failed to become miracles. The spray produced by the contact and collision between phases has a shockingly thin but widespread influence on people. It affects coin tosses, the order at which dishes are served at a restaurant, meetings and partings, marriages and divorces…and even people’s deaths. If you see no direct cause for your daughter’s death, you should assume it is a spontaneous event caused by a gathering of the influence that so many people are unwittingly affected by."

Bennet said that the rise and fall of civilizations and traditions affect the real world.
Assuming his statements regarding this, I think Phase can collapse when no one believing or worshipping the trait of the Phase.

 

[Aseka]

Also this, about Archetype Controller.

Archetype was a psychological term for a common understanding or sense of values that developed as each member of a race or group dealt with an identical problem in the same way. These included religious concepts such as the palace of the gods being above the clouds and the prison for sinners being below the earth. In an extremely broad and shallow sense, the idea that the Japanese loved rice and Americans loved burgers was an archetype.

It is said that Crowley can use Archetype Controller to an extend that religious concept such as the palace of the gods being above the clouds meaning Heaven, and the prison for sinners being below the earth meaning Hell.

Assuming if it's true, then Crowley can control the Archetype to reverse it become Heaven below earth or Hell above the clouds. And indirectly he controlled the order of Phases.

Now, if he can control the Phase with Archetype Controller, is Phase tied to Archetype then? Or it isn't?

 

[Churronzon]

Archetype Controller should be affecting the collective subconscious of the masses which gives rise to phases so I would agree that he could manipulate phases as the text states. Who knows if we're in the minority though.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

As always, To Aru fulfills its part of being a somewhat OP Light Novel verse.

 

[Churronzon]

I want to get a sense of what the consensus is for some things.

To what degree would Magic Gods destroy things with their presence in Toaru:

• The contents of the current phase
• The outermost phase
• All of the phases
• The entire setting

---

Magic Gods can't breach the Pure World so Aiwass should have type 9 immortality. Even if they could reach Pure World, Aiwass should have type 9.

---

Would the Ceremony of Mo Athair be baseline universal from destroying the Pure World, on the assumption that the collapse of the phases is only a biproduct domino effect of that?
Or would Ceremony be at least High 1-C from destroying something that the Magic Gods can't reach? Coronzon also stated that the Ceremony would kill the magic gods, but since they were nerfed at the time I guess I can't prove whether their Full Power versions would die as well(although I fully expect them to). MGs are also as cocky as ever.

“I see. Coronzon lurks behind the Sephiroth, not the Qliphoth. You’re a demon, but you’re
also a gatekeeper who never falls from the tree. I see, I see. You form your power from the
laws of the Olam Beriah, not the Olam Asiyah! Yeah, this is interesting!! You can probably
earn a participation trophy and an ‘A for Effort’ for this!!”

Yes.

The pure elements did not exist in this world and they would never mix with anything else.
Just like pure water and monopoles behaved differently just by being a single pure thing.
Even if it did not have the perfect negation ability of Imagine Breaker, it could push the
enemy away like a moving wall. Gabriel controlled the same water anyone could use, so
why was that archangel such a threat? This was the same. The element was identical, but
the level of purity was far greater.

“A human who rose to the level of a god? You mastered magic and then called it quits?”
Coronzon herself was the angel who resided in ZAX, the tenth Aethyr.

And she explained what that meant here.

“Don’t screw with me, you fool who refuses to break down. You are no more than someone
who decided to stop partway up the mountain. Whether you ascend the Sephiroth or
descend the Qliphoth, a human is still a human. Every last one of you is a puny little thing.
The true heights exist beyond your understanding, so allow me to show you what true
magic looks like!! My breakdown of all creation will swallow you up and you will be no
more, you impurity born of human deeds!!”

“I’m sorry to say it, but you really shouldn’t underestimate a Magic God, you freak.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 3 Part 1

Aleister Crowley had tried to make a better world by eradicating all forms of the occult.

But Great Demon Coronzon had the complete opposite view. He had tried to protect the
“layer of science” that supported all things at the very, very bottom, but she did not care
if even that was lost.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 4

Btw does the 3-dimensional universe being finite discredit the Magic Gods' current tiering? I wouldn't care either way, but I actually don't know.
I'm asking since incomplete ceremony would destroy half the universe. Half of infinity would still be infinity.

(But even in this incomplete state, I can blow away about half the universe. It all works
out in the end as long as that half includes this planet!! For now, I eliminate the obvious
enemy. I just have to think of another way to individually destroy the Sephirah that
survive this!!)

“Activate...”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 17

Another reason for the visible 3rd dimension being finite is that Othinus' arrows can reach the farthest reaches of the universe.

What I haven't figured out yet however, is how Coronzon expected any new life to be created after the Pure World and all the phases are destroyed.

She would destroy everything that currently existed to prepare for whoever would come
next. That “whoever” did not need to be human. The next form of life to arise could be
part fish, could have wings, could be giant invertebrate amoebas, or could be eight-legged
octopus aliens. As long as they were born naturally and were destroyed naturally, she did
not care how prosperous they were. She viewed herself as an evil destroyer, yet she would
not stop trying to provide this fundamental salvation.

Even if the concept was as horrific as chopping up your beloved while they still lived,
sowing their remains on the earth, growing a field there to draw in animals, and declaring
it a great success because your descendants could inherit everything you had built up.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 12

Unless God(not Ein Sof) recreates the material universe according to the Gnostics.
Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the Yahweh of the Old Testament)[2] who is responsible for creating the material universe.

• General wikipedia source

Ain Soph Aur, Ain Soph, Ain.

000, 00, 0.

As God’s territory could not be understood by humans and the concept could not be
expressed by humans, it was not shown on the Sephiroth.

However, a religious system had appeared to take advantage of that.

[...]

It was known as Gnosticism.

• Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 03 Chapter 2 Part 8

For people who believe God is a simple being in Toaru who would only exist in the phase of heaven and would be weaker than MGs:

A Magic God.

That term did not refer to a god of demons. It referred to someone who had mastered
magic to the extent that they had taken one step into the domain of god.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 05 Chapter 1 Part 4

Coronzon states MGs stopped partway up the mountain.

“A human who rose to the level of a god? You mastered magic and then called it quits?”
Coronzon herself was the angel who resided in ZAX, the tenth Aethyr.

And she explained what that meant here.

“Don’t screw with me, you fool who refuses to break down. You are no more than someone
who decided to stop partway up the mountain.

Aleister states he made modifications to himself so he could control something different than the Magic Gods who could only live in a distorted phase.

“Your attempt to destroy magic is quite eccentric as well. If you had turned that obsession
in the right direction, you could have been a part of Gremlin too.”

“I made some adjustments to myself to ensure that would not happen. That way I can
control something different than you bizarre magicians who can only live in a distorted
phase.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 10 Epilogue

Magic Gods also imply that they use laws based off the surface world(Olam Asiyah), unlike Coronzon's Olam Beriah which is qualitatively superior(purity of the elements for example).

You form your power from the
laws of the Olam Beriah, not the Olam Asiyah! Yeah, this is interesting!! You can probably
earn a participation trophy and an ‘A for Effort’ for this!!”

It's also stated that God/Ein Sof is outside the Sephiroth entirely in a quote provided above(OT3).
Something created the canvas and the setting, and the Magic Gods sure as shit can't.

“Yes. That leaves a struggle over resources with the other Magic Gods. We all have the
power to change everything, but there is only one world. Think of it like having ten
painters but only one canvas. If they each continually try to overwrite it as they see fit, it
would develop into a fistfight. Do you understand what I’m saying?”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 13 Chapter 1 Part 8

For those who haven't seen my Will CRT.

“Let us continue. Angel Fall is related to a concept in Kabbalah of something called the
Tree of Sephirot. Have you heard of it?”

[...]

“The Tree of Sephirot is basically a ranking chart. It has the ranking of the souls of God,
angels, and humans graded on a ten-step pyramid. Just think of it like that.”

“To put it bluntly, it’s like a map of God’s absolute reign that basically says that this
territory is for humans and this territory is for God—so don’t go coming in all willy-nilly.”

“The number of people and the number of angels are all decided beforehand, so
normally, a human cannot climb to the status of angel. It goes both ways; an angel also
cannot fall to the level of a human.”

“Basically, all the ranks are filled to capacity.”

“By the way,” Kanzaki continued after Tsuchimikado’s comment, “what we call Angel
Fall is referring to an angel of a heavenly rank being forced down to the rank of humans.
Like a cup that was already filled, if you pour in one more drop, if an angel falls to the
rank of humans, then—Is something the matter?”

[...]

“Because an angel has been forcibly moved from a higher sefira to a lower one via Angel Fall,
because of the fluctuations it has caused, the four worlds creating the form of the ten
sefira—specifically, Olam Atzilut (the shaping world), Olam Beriah (the creating world),
Olam Yetzira (the formative world), and Olam Asiyah (the physical world)—are being
affected”

• Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 04 Chapter 1 Part 1

---

People assume MGs can return from World Rejecter sealed timeline on their own, but there's no basis for it w/o headcanon.
WR New World is strongly implied(if not outright confirmed) to be outside of the surface of the Four Worlds(for w/e reason) and if true, means MGs shouldn't be able to come back from it.

“The separate image of the Four Worlds from which power is drawn becomes a different
Four Worlds like the moon’s reflection in a lake.”

Kamijou began to wonder if he should be here.

He had not washed his body, his face, or even his hands. He wondered if he should be
standing in this sacrosanct place while so filthy.

“The sun of Horus which shall cleanse the world shall be known by the divine name of
Kamisato Kakeru!!”

All the while, wedges were driven into the world.

A supposedly lost name was once more carved powerfully into it.

“Legba Atibon is a frightening being who can surpass even time as the gate to manage all
ceremonies. But just as the Qliphoth becomes a powerful compass that points to the truth
of the world when used with truly accurate discernment, the curse of the second Aeon can
be used as a powerful prism to divide the forces. This shall distort the line to the planet
which descends toward the six-pointed star and thus shall substitute the symbols.”

[...]

“Tonight, we shall destroy one of the impossibilities facing the world! Summon the divine
name of Kamisato Kakeru with physical form and fix him to Olam Asiyah, the surface of
the Four Worlds!!!!!!”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 17 Chapter 4 Part 5

Now I have to go research Legba Atibon.

---

Based off what I said above, I believe the following quote to be more than just flowery language and not just describing the phase of heaven.

When Kakine Teitoku saw that, he knew.

His Dark Matter, his elementary particles that supposedly didn’t exist in this universe.
What on earth was it? Where was he pulling it out of? What did it mean?

“Crazy...That’s some crazy evil. See, you can do it after all, villain. I see why Dark
Matter’s just a spare plan now. But that doesn’t necessarily mean victory is assured!!”

As though answering his cry, Kakine Teitoku’s six wings exploded out. They reached
dozens of meters in length, filled with both a mystical light and an inorganic,
machinelike quality. Just like a giant weapon that God or angels would use.

The air cried as it was touched by the six wings.

What Accelerator and Dark Matter possessed, respectively, were organicity and
inorganicity. And those terms applied to a different world than this one. One wielded a
part of a power equal to God, and one wielded part of the heavenly plane in which God
lived. With these conditions, the match was even. And Kakine Teitoku, unlike
Accelerator, hadn’t lost himself.

• Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 15 Chapter 5 Part 4

---

More random crap that I can only provide through wiki info and impeccable similarities to Toaru cosmology:
As the universe and all the phases are part of Olam Asiyah, Pure World is Asiyah Gashmi.

Below Asiyah, the lowest spiritual World, is Asiyah-Gashmi ("Physical Asiyah"), our Physical Universe, which enclothes its last two sefirot “emanations” (Yesod and Malkuth).

The angels of Asiyah function on the active level, as the sefirah Malkuth (fulfilment in Kingship) predominates. Below spiritual Asiyah is Asiyah Gashmi (עֲשִׂיָה גַשׁמִי, "Physical Asiyah"), the final, lowest realm of existence, our material Universe with all its creations.

---

Adam Kadmon is referenced at least twice in this series. Anyone want to check their significance to the Sephiroth?
What the hell. Coronzon confirms Adam's existence.

“Of course. My job is to fix the circulation. And that creates the next age. Once, the
majority of the Sephirah were under attack. If the Second Adam had not atoned with
blood, the world would not have lasted this long. And the critical clogs are all born of
knowledge. I am the Great Demon who protects the Abyss, that hidden division of the
Sephiroth. Whatever my purpose is, I have undeniably been stained. ...Thus, I will destroy
it all. Myself and the entire Sephiroth that contains me are no exceptions. Partial
destruction would be meaningless. If anything remains and an eternal distortion is born
from that, then it will all happen again. I will eliminate the ten spheres, the twenty-two
pathways, and the hidden eleventh symbol. Collisions between phases? Sparks and spray?
You cannot save anyone if you only treat those symptoms. All of the fundamental clogs
must be removed. All so we can pass the baton to whoever comes next.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 12

Wait, she would destroy the entire ******* Sephiroth. No shot this is baseline universal. It's only the incomplete Ceremony that would not destroy the Sephirah.

Definitely not qualitatively superior btw.

 

[MrOMG]

Magical Gods in principle are rather weak beings from the point of view of the global hierarchy. For all their power, the Magical Gods are still human, so they are limited to the human world.

So the global hierarchy should be Magic Gods<People with a pure soul (Lilith is already quite strong despite being less than a year old, and it has been said that her soul has infinite potential. Lilith, only with pure will was able to stop the Coronzon attack that rivaled the Othinus spear,)<<Angels and Demons (who are in their true bodies, rather than manifesting these beings into the Surface World with a blob of energy)<<<<<Gods<<<< and lords of the Sephiroth Tree(Secret Chiefs, Coronzon and others)<<<<infinity<<<<Ain Soph Aur 000,<<<infinity<<<< Ain Soph 00,<<<infinity<<< Ain 0.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Huh, learned something new about the ToAru-Verse. Neato.

 

[MrOMG]

Huh, learned something new about the ToAru-Verse. Neato.

Also, Virtual-On is canon because it was mentioned in the general timeline, and Kamachi's interview said that the Espers manipulate parallel worlds to create unlikely events within their world. Live with it now.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Also, Virtual-On is canon because it was mentioned in the general timeline, and Kamachi's interview said that the Espers manipulate parallel worlds to create unlikely events within their world. Live with it now.

... Woah, I enjoyed that story in the past, nice to know. Wonder if that To Aru Virtual-On Game has anything noteworthy about it... Probably nothing canon, but one can hope.

 

[MrOMG]

... Woah, I enjoyed that story in the past, nice to know. Wonder if that To Aru Virtual-On Game has anything noteworthy about it... Probably nothing canon, but one can hope.

Virtual-On is exactly canon. In the little booklet that mentions all the events of ToAru, Virtual-On is listed as a story taking place in a parallel world, after the Othinus story. Virtual-On has two stories, one in book form and the other the story of the game itself. In it, Othinus was able to infiltrate and threaten Tangram's world, and the Accelerator, due to his ability not being limited to 3-dimensional space, was able to affect Tangram, who is beyond the infinite number of infinite multiverse. The game also comes with a journal with an interview with Kamachi, in which we learn that the Espers are limited to one multiverse, while the Tangram can interact with all multiverses. We also learn that Othinus is equal in power to Tangram, all told by Kamachi himself.

 

[Doggo]

Virtual-On is exactly canon. In the little booklet that mentions all the events of ToAru, Virtual-On is listed as a story taking place in a parallel world, after the Othinus story. Virtual-On has two stories, one in book form and the other the story of the game itself. In it, Othinus was able to infiltrate and threaten Tangram's world, and the Accelerator, due to his ability not being limited to 3-dimensional space, was able to affect Tangram, who is beyond the infinite number of infinite multiverse. The game also comes with a journal with an interview with Kamachi, in which we learn that the Espers are limited to one multiverse, while the Tangram can interact with all multiverses. We also learn that Othinus is equal in power to Tangram, all told by Kamachi himself.

We need a new cosmology blog for this

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

And of course, Accelerator gets a possible power-up. Heh.

 

[Doggo]

And of course, Accelerator gets a possible power-up. Heh.

Btw can his control over High 1-C vectors be use in offensive ways other than defense?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

We need a new cosmology blog for this

Not well-versed on cosmology stuff, so can't help here... For now.

Btw can his control over High 1-C vectors be use in offensive ways other than defense?

Not entirely sure, tbh. Don't think Accelerator showcased that kind of power, but there is a possibility, so... Best to wait for whatever Kamachi comes up with in the future, I suppose.

 

[Doggo]

Btw considering verses like SMT and Unsong get op ratings thx to kabbalah shit, its really likely Toaru could reach outer ratings which is funny

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Btw considering verses like SMT and Unsong get op ratings thx to kabbalah shit, its really likely Toaru could reach outer ratings which is funny

Ratings are funny in general, if you think about it, tbh. Like, Touma, due to my work, can one-punch a irl elephant in this site, for example.

 

[Doggo]

Ratings are funny in general, if you think about it, tbh. Like, Touma, due to my work, can one-punch a irl elephant in this site, for example.

Even funnier he ap stomps alot of 9B characters so much for "ordinary high school boy you can find any where"

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Even funnier he ap stomps alot of 9B characters so much for "ordinary high school boy you can find any where"

He stopped being an ordinary high school boy you can find any where the very instant a dragon came out of his severed arm... Actually, now that I think about it, as of GT7, Touma showcased some measure of control over of control over the literal zoo of mythological creatures that are beyond his right arm - wonder if I can get rid of the Beyond the Right Hand in Touma's profile and just add it directly to his base key,

 

[Aseka]

Talking about cosmology, maybe 11th dimension just what they know from Science Side. I'm sure that the dimension more than that 11th.

Like, Curtana Original said can sever all whole numbered dimensions. But who knows in future ahead, maybe Kamachi expand the cosmology, or maybe just stay at it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Magical Gods in principle are rather weak beings from the point of view of the global hierarchy. For all their power, the Magical Gods are still human, so they are limited to the human world.

So the global hierarchy should be Magic Gods<People with a pure soul (Lilith is already quite strong despite being less than a year old, and it has been said that her soul has infinite potential. Lilith, only with pure will was able to stop the Coronzon attack that rivaled the Othinus spear,)<<Angels and Demons (who are in their true bodies, rather than manifesting these beings into the Surface World with a blob of energy)<<<<<Gods<<<< and lords of the Sephiroth Tree(Secret Chiefs, Coronzon and others)<<<<infinity<<<<Ain Soph Aur 000,<<<infinity<<<< Ain Soph 00,<<<infinity<<< Ain 0.

What? MGs aren't at the top that's right, but most of these in your list don't actually have even half of their power.

Archangels and Demons are never hyped to be >>>>> Magic Gods at all, and while that feat for Lilith is cool and all we both know Othinus is literally fodder for other MGs and it's really strange to place Lilith with her one tricky spell + "unlimited potential" to be placed above the verse's actual universe-busters but below the characters with planet level feats and some galactic range.

 

[XDragnoir]

I want to get a sense of what the consensus is for some things.

To what degree would Magic Gods destroy things with their presence in Toaru:

• The contents of the current phase
• The outermost phase
• All of the phases
• The entire setting

All of the phases above the Pure World, the Pure World and whatever else there may be wouldn't be affected.

---

Magic Gods can't breach the Pure World so Aiwass should have type 9 immortality. Even if they could reach Pure World, Aiwass should have type 9.

Hmm, yeah, we currently give him Low Godly regen but it does fot better as type 9 ig.

---

Would the Ceremony of Mo Athair be baseline universal from destroying the Pure World, on the assumption that the collapse of the phases is only a biproduct domino effect of that?
Or would Ceremony be at least High 1-C from destroying something that the Magic Gods can't reach? Coronzon also stated that the Ceremony would kill the magic gods, but since they were nerfed at the time I guess I can't prove whether their Full Power versions would die as well(although I fully expect them to). MGs are also as cocky as ever.

It would be H1C cause it would destroy the very base first, which is a H1C world.

Btw does the 3-dimensional universe being finite discredit the Magic Gods' current tiering? I wouldn't care either way, but I actually don't know.
I'm asking since incomplete ceremony would destroy half the universe. Half of infinity would still be infinity.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 17

Another reason for the visible 3rd dimension being finite is that Othinus' arrows can reach the farthest reaches of the universe.

No, that doesn't change anything.

What I haven't figured out yet however, is how Coronzon expected any new life to be created after the Pure World and all the phases are destroyed.

Ehhhh that's probably Kamachi saving something to explain later, as he always does. It's more than likely that he will expand the cosmology at some point and that could explain this... i just hope he further explains what we have currently before adding new things.

For people who believe God is a simple being in Toaru who would only exist in the phase of heaven and would be weaker than MGs:

Ehhhhh

That's the type of thing I'd like to see the kanji for, i really doubt the Christian God and the Sephirot God are the same being in Toaru, the kanji would prove/debunk this thought.

Main reason being Fiamma/LPSaD and the whole Aeon of Osiris make a clear distiction between Christian beliefs/phases and the things that exist beyond Aeons/Phases.

 

[MrOMG]

What? MGs aren't at the top that's right, but most of these in your list don't actually have even half of their power.

Archangels and Demons are never hyped to be >>>>> Magic Gods at all, and while that feat for Lilith is cool and all we both know Othinus is literally fodder for other MGs and it's really strange to place Lilith with her one tricky spell + "unlimited potential" to be placed above the verse's actual universe-busters but below the characters with planet level feats and some galactic range.

Nah. We have known for a long time that the Magical Gods, despite their power, remain human (in terms of soul rank), so they cannot leave the Surface World (or cling to it) (the Magical Gods still draw their power from the Surface World) (that is, they are limited to this world and its laws), that is to say, frankly, they are quite weak. The goal of all humans is to purify their souls, and to rise above the material world to join God in Heaven, and the first step for this act is to cleanse their souls of sin and to rise up. Magical Gods are Gods within the human world, but their power does not extend to the world of Angels and Demons, which is higher, the Magical Gods are a priori lower than the beings who are higher in the hierarchy of the soul (world). People who have just begun their ascent up the Ladder, nothing more. From this point of view, Lilith, as the one who went through the ritual of soul purification, could only by her will (without using magic or something like that) compare to the Magical God by brute force, which already proves the potential of the human soul (perhaps, that the Magical God is a dead-end branch of development. It may be that the Magical God chose the wrong path (rebirth/reincarnation) of development, because of which he falsely climbed only half of the mountain). Angels and demons that we have seen were never at the peak of their powers (their existence is similar to Aiwass or Coronzon (Coronzon could not use most of their powers at all, due to the limitations of the material world) most likely their existence in our world weakens them (most likely causing/revealing only a small part of angel power) angel should not exist in human world, as the rank of the soul of the Angel is higher than in humans).

「セフィロトの樹」はカバラの神秘と奥儀を表したもので、「生命の樹」とも呼ばれている。10個の球体「セフィラ」、3本の柱と22本の径「チャネル」で構成されたこの図形の上には、描かれていないもの=神の叡智そのものがあるとされている。セフィロトの樹は、あくまでも人間の世界を描いたものなのだ。ゆえに、セフィロトの外=異界にいる神や天使といった存在は、人間とは全く格の違う存在であり、たとえ聖人といえどもたどり着けない存在である。この考えは学園都市の目指す「SYSTEM（神ならぬ身にて天上の意志に辿り着くもの）」とも類似するものである。

 

[XDragnoir]

Nah. We have known for a long time that the Magical Gods, despite their power, remain human (in terms of soul rank), so they cannot leave the Surface World (or cling to it) (the Magical Gods still draw their power from the Surface World) (that is, they are limited to this world and its laws), that is to say, frankly, they are quite weak. The goal of all humans is to purify their souls, and to rise above the material world to join God in Heaven, and the first step for this act is to cleanse their souls of sin and to rise up. Magical Gods are Gods within the human world, but their power does not extend to the world of Angels and Demons, which is higher, the Magical Gods are a priori lower than the beings who are higher in the hierarchy of the soul (world). People who have just begun their ascent up the Ladder, nothing more. From this point of view, Lilith, as the one who went through the ritual of soul purification, could only by her will (without using magic or something like that) compare to the Magical God by brute force, which already proves the potential of the human soul (perhaps, that the Magical God is a dead-end branch of development. It may be that the Magical God chose the wrong path (rebirth/reincarnation) of development, because of which he falsely climbed only half of the mountain). Angels and demons that we have seen were never at the peak of their powers (their existence is similar to Aiwass or Coronzon (Coronzon could not use most of their powers at all, due to the limitations of the material world) most likely their existence in our world weakens them (most likely causing/revealing only a small part of angel power) angel should not exist in human world, as the rank of the soul of the Angel is higher than in humans).

Sure, but soul rank isn't the only thing there is to power and even then it's stated the MGs have taken a step into God's domain which isn't in the Sephirot to begin with, while the Angels are ranked inside it.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, that's the original text for which part?

 

[MrOMG]

Sure, but soul rank isn't the only thing there is to power and even then it's stated the MGs have taken a step into God's domain which isn't in the Sephirot to begin with, while the Angels are ranked inside it.

Most likely it is mentioned in the context of becoming God in the human world, then they become closer to Ain 0. The same Accelerator is also mentioned as someone who has entered God territory, although his physiology is close to that of an Angel.

The rank of the Soul is quite important, for it is its position that shows where you are within the Tree of Sephiroth (and that, it only shows your position within the human Tree of Sephiroth, which in no way affects the higher Tree).

https://*******/view/1506707

check in scans folder

 

[XDragnoir]

Most likely it is mentioned in the context of becoming God in the human world, then they become closer to Ain 0. The same Accelerator is also mentioned as someone who has entered God territory, although his physiology is close to that of an Angel.

Yeah, and recently Accelerator is straight up stated to have climbed the full thing and yet we didn't see him doing anything beyond what MGs can do.

https://*******/view/1506707

check in scans folder

Bruh, do you use discord? I can add you there if you want

 

[MrOMG]

Yeah, and recently Accelerator is straight up stated to have climbed the full thing and yet we didn't see him doing anything beyond what MGs can do.

Accelerator introduced a whole new tree into the universe that would distort the entire world more than the Angel's Fall, this feat alone is already more powerful than anything the Magical Gods have done, as no Magical God has interacted with higher worlds such as Olam Briah.

Is this a feature of the site LOL? Hmm, then just search for "[ReinForce] Toaru Majutsu no Index batch."