To complete the HST inconclusive: Ichigo vs McQueen

[DragonEmperor23]

Upon reconsideration of what I have said before, I would like to reclarify something. I said that Ichigo's soul crush wouldn't suffocate Thunder because Thunder has resistance to soul manip. While Thunder does have resistance to soul manip, it comes from him being able to function after having lost pieces of his soul which would not stop a direct attack on his entire soul which is what Ichigo would be passively doing once he got in range. As said above by Link and Imade, the riatsu has an effect on both the physical and spiritual so it would suffocate Thunder either way. Ichigo would find Thunder, they would both suffocate to death and White would not be able to ressurect Ichigo due to not being shown to be able to ressurect Ichigo from Mid levels of damage. Inconclusive

 

[Warren_Valion]

Upon reconsideration of what I have said before, I would like to reclarify something. I said that Ichigo's soul crush wouldn't suffocate Thunder because Thunder has resistance to soul manip. While Thunder does have resistance to soul manip, it comes from him being able to function after having lost pieces of his soul which would not stop a direct attack on his entire soul which is what Ichigo would be passively doing once he got in range. As said above by Link and Imade, the riatsu has an effect on both the physical and spiritual so it would suffocate Thunder either way. Ichigo would find Thunder, they would both suffocate to death and White would not be able to ressurect Ichigo due to not being shown to be able to ressurect Ichigo from Mid levels of damage. Inconclusive

Why would Ichigo, or anyone for that matter, allow himself to die of suffication?

 

[Link_Eternal]

Regenerating from hypoxia is Mid, but reconstructing your heart from scratch is Low-Mid? Life is not fair.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It's not just suffocation, he would also be paralyzed.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I also don't know if Ichigo's Reiatsu would cause suffocation, it could cause minor paralysis effects like what Aizen did to Grimmjow and it tires out the target as that is the physical effect.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Ichigo was comparable to the Soul King in the novel though so his riatsu would atleast suffocate Thunder, if not disintegrate him like Aizen can do.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Aren't there multiple cases of reiatsu causing breathing difficulty?

Well, anyway the seemingly agreed upon sequence of events is:

1. TM and Ichigo make contact

2. TM throws himself into some water

3. Ichigo comes close because wtf

4. Proximity causes paralysis to TM in the water

5. Paralysis transfers to Ichigo

6. TM dies to drowning

7 Death and Damage transfer to Ichigo, again

My questions are: Is damage from hypoxia really out of Low-Mid's range? What is severe brain damage?

 

[Warren_Valion]

I'm pretty sure that TM gets paralyzed and suffocated before he throws himself into a lake or something.


Also, how does such a character that is this suicidal even exist in the first place?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Link "Brai cells are very sensitive to a lack of oxygen. Some brai cells start dying less than 5 minutes after their oxygen supply disappears. As a result, brain hypoxia can rapidly cause severe brai damage or death." Sauce

@Warren A guy was going around trying to find someone that HtH would be a good match for and found Thunder.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I think we're assuming that they spot each other from a distance outside of reiatsu range, and that there would likely be some nearby body of water at least as deep as a pond very close to TM.


and lol Plot Induced Resilience?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I mean either way if Ichigo is near Thunder in the water or out of the water, Thunder's still going to suffocate.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Ichigo was comparable to the Soul King in the novel though so his riatsu would atleast suffocate Thunder, if not disintegrate him like Aizen can do.

We already had a revision for Reiatsu for Aizen, Ichigo and others in another thread. Ichigo does not have the disintegration effect added. Suffocation is a big if since we only know Ichigo could do minor paraylsis.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Ah, and thats what gets me, wouldn't TM "die" before the damage reaches severe levels? all it takes is damage in the right place to off someone. And once TM is dead, damage stops being transfered to Ichigo's brain.

Well, yes, this was under according to the case that reiatsu does not cause suffocation, TM being paralyzed in water leads to the same result, so the point isn't reallly relevant, because we know reiatsu stuns.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@IMade I know that but the reasoning for Yhwach getting it was because of getting the Soul King's riatsu and in the novel they're comparing Ichigo to the Soul King. I'm saying Ichigo would atleast have suffocation with his.

@Link TM would die because it reaches severe levels. The brain dies after taking severe damage.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Why again would Ichigo just let himself be paralyzed and suffocate?

Like he is used to being paralyzed and suffocated with Spiritual pressure and in response, he would raise his own to negate the effects. But in doing so, he would likely realize that the more he raises his pressure in TM's presence, the more of the effect he would feel.

Now I can't say that he would know to lower his pressure to negate the effects before he did suffocate, but standing there and dying without trying to work something out seems like something no one would do, including Ichigo, at least to me.


Also, can you explain TM's story? Was he given these powers? Did the powers make him suicidal or was he always like that? If he was always like that, then how he alive long enough to be given powers, and why didn't he instantly kill himself?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this being's existence.


Well, I'm going to hit the hay, I'll check in tomorrow.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

You would need to prove that Ichigo at least has the suffocation ability. Weaponizing Reiatsu takes control and we only know Ichigo was capable of minor paraylsis.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Weaponizing Reiatsu takes control and we only know Ichigo was capable of minor paraylsis.

We actually don't know that for sure, and actually most of the explanations lead one to believe that it takes control to not cause damage.

@Dragon

Then why does it say "or"?

These medical people need to be more careful with their diction.

How about this one

This one makes it seem like the brain can stop, before it takes irreparable damage.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Warren

Even if he did lower his spiritual pressure so he could move then it would still be inconclusive because the second he hits Thunder, Thunder's body is getting obliterated and so is Ichigo's. Thunder worked as a janitor at a prison. He was suicidal but was afraid to die alone. Pucci gave Thunder HtH and then Thunder went around for someone to kill himself with.

@IMade

I wasn't aware that Ichigo only has minor paralysis. If that is the case then Ichigo would still be able to move and even a slight swing of his sword in Thunder's direction would obliterate Thunder's body and therefore his own rendering the match inconclusive.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Link

Or implies that death would take place after the severe damage since there would be no reason for there to be severe damage to the brain after it has already died. The other thing you linked says the steps in that as more and more time passes, more permament damage is cause and death chances are rising. "At 10 minutes, even if the brain remains alive, a coma and lasting brain damage are almost inevitable." This means that you can have severe brain damage without dying yet.

 

[Link_Eternal]

@Dragon

I completely agree, so which do we assume? Also, I was mostly questioning what this site takes as "severe brain damage", seeing as they put it right after "decapitation", does hypoxia make the cut, or is it more like an attack removing half your head?

The effects of reiatsu increase in relation to the powergap what that proportion is, idk, Shinigami are generally always suppressing their reiatsu, and no one in their right mind would put Zaraki next to a powerless human. We do know that when Ichigo is readying for a fight he'll not bother restraining himself.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Right, I'm saying hypoxia needs mid considering considering that there isn't a difference between dead brain cells and something like your brain being destroyed because either way the cells are dead. In the vehicle comparison it talks about the critical part of the car so the whole brain being dead would require Mid regen based off the description it has.

 

[Link_Eternal]

But because there are varying levels of brain damage and the fact it could be possible to die before severe brain damage make hypoxia a bit of a crapshot, you might need Mid, you might not. To keep the vehicle analogy, if you break the engine (best I could do, not a mechanic), or cross some wires, the car will "die" with only minor damage.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@IMade

I wasn't aware that Ichigo only has minor paralysis. If that is the case then Ichigo would still be able to move and even a slight swing of his sword in Thunder's direction would obliterate Thunder's body and therefore his own rendering the match inconclusive.

Neither TM would be able to move nor would Ichigo as a result of HTH.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Right but in hypoxia the person wouldn't die until their brain dies. "At 10 minutes, even if the brain remains alive, a coma and lasting brain damage are almost inevitable." This means that it's possible for it to take longer to die of brain damage, but the brain damage would still be dead when the brain eventually does die from lack of air. There wouldn't be anything else that could kill Thunder other than severe brain damage because that's the only damage Thunder is taking.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Like I said, if the paralysis is only minor then they would both be able to move resulting in the scenario I mentioned.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

There is no moving under the effects though, the gap in tiers is massive that it's going to freeze TM pretty much. By HTH, this means Ichigo will freeze too.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I really don't want to go in circles.

My point is that the brain can shut down with minor damage, which should fall within the capabilities of Low-Mid.

I already agreed that it is also possible for the brain to last well into severe damage, which requires Mid.

These make hypoxia a crapshot in terms of how much regen is needed to recover and will likely take a mod to resolve. I'm fine with either, Good points though.

PS. Am I the only one that finds it odd that this site equates a vehicle's engine to a human brain when the human engine is the heart? See you tommorow.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

cya link I know the brain can shut down with minor damage, I'm saying the person would be a coma but not dead yet. White wouldn't be able to help Ichigo because ressurection doesn't work on the alive. The brain would continue to deteriorate while in the coma before dying and causing incon.

@Imade If you want to argue that Ichigo doesn't have suffocation with his paralysis, his page doesn't have his paralysis at all. Make a CRT since it's an important factor in this fight.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

The pseudo paralysis was already discussed and agreed upon by admins and users in another CRT, the only thing is we are waiting for it to be unlocked to add. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1854604

 

[DragonEmperor23]

His profile also says he only has low mid regen in his advanced hollow form. This wording implies he doesn't have it in true bankai.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

That'd be a mistake then because True Bankai with Hollow Merge would be using the culmination of all his powers which Zangetsu is a part of.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Make a CRT for it since the regen is the main counterarguement why Ichigo would win.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Does HtH maintain the reflections? If Ichigo chops off TM's leg, and his own falls off, will HtH prevent Ichigo from regen?

 

[Vizorus69]

Does HtH maintain the reflections? If Ichigo chops off TM's leg, and his own falls off, will HtH prevent Ichigo from regen?

That, is a good question. No one from part 6 of Jojo has regenration, so it's hard to say.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

@Link

How it would work is that as long as HtH is active then it will be maintained. Using your example if Ichigo tried growing his leg back then HtH would just cut off the part of the leg that trying to get regrown. This is because HtH replicates the damage onto the target, so if the damage disapears then the damage would just come back again. It wouldn't wait for the regen to be finished either, as soon as Ichigo's leg starts being more healed than Thunder's the healed part's getting chopped again.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Do we have a close enough situation or statement to support that?

HtH transfers damage, which would be the leg being cut off. Once it is off TM's body begins to heal the would, (just doesn't have regen) and no further damage is occurring, even if TM starts harming the stump, that would juust damage the inside of Ichigo's leg.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

True. That wouldn't really effect this battle though as any attack that Ichigo would land on Thunder would instantly destroy his entire body. And the whole suffocation thing would be constant damage to Thunder's brain so Ichigo would be receiving constant damage as well.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I see this. However there are many variables to this fight (like there aren't in nearly every one), TM's proximity to anything bigger than a puddle, Ichigo's reaction to the reiatsu paralysis and suffocation, the amount of strength he will put into his attack (he does value fairness), TM spotting Ichigo from a distance convieniently outside of reiatsu range.

I see a greater likelyhood of the variables falling in Ichigo's favor, than TM essentially lucking into a draw.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Edit: Wrong thread. Also, Ichigo has more means of achieving vicory than just killing TM.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I mean, Ichigo wouldn't know how strong Thunder is at a glance because I don't know how having a stand would look like in terms of Ichigo looking at him with reiatsu sight to see his strength. Even then, Ichigo isn't known for his control of his reiatsu and he would have to compress a lot of his strength in order to not turn Thunder into a pile of blood with a single attack since his AP is Moon level and Thunder has street level durability. Inconclusive also counts for when the fight is too close as to which outcome between Ichi winning, Thunder winning, or incon would take place.