To Aru NT updates and some other minor stuff

[DontTalkDT]

New Volume new stuff. I will not quote everything, but give references for most of the stuff. If you want quotes on anything particular just ask.

Aleister
-He has a smartphone with remote control for Hikoboshi II, or more specifically its laser, as standard equipment.

-He can construct the stuff mentioned here. Should be added to intelligence.

-With a bible Aleister can use the following spells (See chapter 4 part 2):

• A spell that purifies herself and grants her wings and a halo. (likely perquisite for the rest)
• Can summon a silver staff, turn it into a palm tree and make it gain weight far greater than its volume or density suggests.
• A spell that creates a protective circle and release a 180┬░ flame wall that can burn one of the Archangels (like Gabriel) Mathers summoned. That should mean High 6-A normal spells.
• A spell that transforms explosive flames into flower petals and produces a purifying light.
• A spell that uses and causes Aleisters wounds. It then makes him emit extreme amounts of light over a large area.

Mathers
-Mathers can use the following spells (See chapter 4 part 2):

• Summon fully summon the four archangels including Gabriel.
• A spell that gathers flames and turns them into lightbulb-like incandescent bronze pig, which attack the opponent and explode on contact.

Aside from those lots of elemental manipulation stuff and Belzébuth.

In regards to Mathers stats:

-Can physically fight Aleister Crowley (second key) and hence scale physically (including speed). (See chapter 4 part 2) There is also some reacting to lasers, but still have to look what that comes down to.

-Can match Aleister in their duel of christian magic who destroyed an archangel. Hence High 6-A for magical AP. (Chapter 4 part 2)

-Is an original Grimoir (and is unhurt by Accelerators attack), hence should be Mountain level durability wise for the same reasons as his wife Mina Mathers. (Chapter 2 part 7)

- High Regenerationn: He regenerated his arm and from heavy burns nigh instantly, survived getting hit by the Liquid-Proof railgun (continent level attack) and most importantly was unkillable through Aleister Crowleys normal magic, which... includes a big bang bomb.

Misaka Mikoto

• Misaka can create microwaves (Chapter 3 part 8).
• The A.A.A. can fly at Mach 6 and take careful aim at Mach 2.5 (chapter 2 part 3)
• It's time to give Misaka an A.A.A. key, since she uses it all the time currently.
• Something not from this Volume: Misaka's electricity paralyses... like electricity should. (OT21 War Report)
• Can break down air through electricity to create oxygen (Chapter 2 part 3)
• Can manipulate airflow to some degree, by creating holes in the air (which happens when she generates the aforementioned oxygen)
• More non-NT 21 stuff: Misaka learned to replicate Junko Hokazes ability to some degree. source. Junko also mentions that she can interfere with photons to some degree, suggesting limited light manipulation.

Changes to misaka's A.A.A. also should apply to Noukans A.A.A., as Misaka's is just an incomplete copy of Noukans.

Accelerator

• There should be some mention of him being able to do this:

Accelerator slowly stood up, narrowed his eyes, reached for his neck, and produced a clicking sound. He had flipped the switch. Still curled up on the floor, Qliphah Puzzle 545 looked up at that monster and slowly smiled even as she trembled. But this smile was different. It had to be the true expression she had never let Coronzon or Aleister Crowley see. And. And. And. There was a dry bursting sound. She blinked her eyes. The translucent demon girl forgot to breath. Her heart had not come to a stop. "Eh? Ah?" She had simply seen Accelerator forcefully stomp on the truck's floor. That was all. But something like a shockwave radiated from that point and, when it passed through Qliphah Puzzle 545's body, the contract with Coronzon ― the thing inside her that had been driving her to act ― was mercilessly shredded She was freed from her bonds. Did this mean she was free to do as she wished? Could she really accept that the world had opened up before her? "Really? Why do you look so shocked?" "Um, umm, uh, why???" "Was it called an original grimoire? Whatever it was, you can keep them from functioning by bringing the energy in the area to the saturation point to obstruct the transfer of power, right? The basic idea is the same as electrocuting someone by screwing with the transmission of their nerve signals. I learned how it's done when it happened to that Edward Berridge guy. So the rest is all about control. If I keep my output below what would destroy you, I can remove just the malfunctioning parts." "B-but, huh? Aren't you a little confused? I might be an artificial demon that exists as a contrast to the Thoth Tarot, but I don't actually use tarot cards. So you shouldn't be able to save me with the same method used on grimoires." "Hm?" He sounded like she had just returned without the drink he had asked for. The #1 seemed fed up with it all as he responded. "You hadn't figured it out? You were created by passing energy through the Qliphoth according to a special process, so you're made from a type of energy, right? How is that any different from the grimoires that suck energy up from the ground or whatever?" "Ah." "Hold on. Isn't your job to full in the gaps in my knowledge? Are you screwing with me?" The logic checked out. But Qliphah Puzzle 545 could not even hazard a guess at how difficult it would be to actually do it. It was as reckless as trying to use a giant chainsaw to slice just the shell of a raw egg without breaking the yolk. And he had seen through to something not even she had realized about herself. She had recovered after being defeated, but that was only because she was very similar in nature to an indestructible grimoire. This was likely the ultimate technique that not even Aleister Crowley or Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers had even considered as a possibility whether or not they could have done it. Yet he was supposed to be an amateur. Even though he had only just now peered into the other side of the world. The #1 could not even manage the fundamental act of refining life force into magic power. Here, he had only manipulated some vectors to bend and gather the thinly distributed energy that was already there. However. Could a true and legitimate genius absorb the information to this extent?
	~ Epilogue ​

• That aside he should get the demon Qliphah Puzzle 545 as a summon (equipement basically), as he can summon her now that he has a contract with her.

Coronzo

• Gets fire manipulation for creating pitch blac flames (epilogue)
• Gets flight for flying
• Lola Stuarts page is renamed to Coronzon, because Lola Stuart is a fake name.

Demons and Angels in general
This also affects Coronzon. As explained in the prologue and epilogue anegls and demons usually are non-corporeal. In order to actually appear in the world they need vessels, but their existence is independent of vessels. So for short they should all get non-corporeality.


Sooooo.... I think that is everything. Opinions?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Seems fine

 

[ZERO7772]

So Alister's casual spells are High 6-A now? Should we apply this to both keys of just his second one?

Otherwise looks fine.

 

[KuuIchigo]

I don't think Aleister needs a bible to use the spells. I think it was more Symbolic to him overcoming his past trauma with christianity, that he took the bible.

I am also conflicted about mathers surviving the liquid proof railgun being due to regen when nothing in the scene implied it and seemed like he was tanking it.

 

[KuuIchigo]

On another note. why are we putting grimoires at mountain level? 90% of the saints have either access to either large island level attacks or large island level ap straightup. infact, who is quoted as saying this? Kanzaki?

I think grimoires dura should be changed to at least that.

 

[Zensum]

Reguarding original grimores they have better quotes especially about their 'defense function' than the Accel instance which makes it hard to pinpoint but I feel like this defense mechanism is above mountain level. Here's one but I can look for more. "Before, you said that this planet and this universe will eventually be destroyed. However, humans have already created something that is similar to a truly eternal life." "?" "Original grimoires."

"No one can destroy an original grimoire." Birdway grabbed a juice box from out of the air and tossed it away again once she realized it was already empty. "An original grimoire is a collection of high purity magical knowledge and each page, topic, and diagram acts like a high level magic circle. You could say it is an autonomous magical device. They gather up the faint power leaking from leylines, amplify it hundreds of times, and create thorough defenses and counter attacks in order to ensure that not even a tiny bit of the knowledge held within itself is destroyed. This effect does not allow any natural weathering of the parchment and prevents it from being destroyed even if all sorts of magicians work together in a group." "What would happen to them if they were brought away from the planet? If they were brought well away from the earth where the leylines they draw power from are, that theory could possibly be overturned." "I don't know, but if an original grimoire would lose its power from that, I doubt the defensive functions of the original grimoire would allow you to take it from the earth."

-

Reguarding your last point about angels and demons I agree with the non corpreal stuff. SS Norse has some minor quotes that further back that up about angels and demons who appear in the physical world as energy like Telesma but their true essences exists in their respective phases.

Also just a side point LPSaD should be capable of this biblical magic under the cross specifically the archangel call.

Overall good summary DT still need to work on a CRT on saint level charcters soon 6C justifications and scaling chain are confusing atm to people.

 

[Schnee_One]

The day Aleister stops getting more powerful is the day I open up a church

I agree with everything here, great job

One thing I should ask, and I apologize if you responded and I didn't see it, but does Aleister get Time resistance for existing in places where the concept of time doesn't exist?

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree with these changes, though it should probably be noted that Mikoto in character won't use what Junko taught her about boosting her physical stats because it reminds her of Acceleratorm just like we already mention that she in character won't likely use Thor-like arc fusion blades because she prefers iron sand.

...Junko should be upgraded too, now that I think about it, she got some lifting and striking feats in the fight with Iruka and the flashback, and we could also add her ability to defend herself from Iruka's weaker lasers and her regen.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't think Aleister needs a bible to use the spells. I think it was more Symbolic to him overcoming his past trauma with christianity, that he took the bible.

Hmmm... I wouldn't say that for certainty. Due to the Idol Principle it could very well be relevant.

Also just a side point LPSaD should be capable of this biblical magic under the cross specifically the archangel call.

LPSaD can use biblical magic related to the right hand, but I don't see a reason he should be able to perform any of these spells. Especially since he isn't aware them, as far as we know.

Pretty sure Fiamma used a ceremonial ground and Sasha to summon Gabriel.

One thing I should ask, and I apologize if you responded and I didn't see it, but does Aleister get Time resistance for existing in places where the concept of time doesn't exist?

As he otherwise isn't freed from the restrictions of time, while in a space with time, I would consider that to be questionable. If he transfers himself into a timeless void, he would there of course be exempt from time related effects.

On another note. why are we putting grimoires at mountain level? 90% of the saints have either access to either large island level attacks or large island level ap straightup. infact, who is quoted as saying this? Kanzaki?

I think grimoires dura should be changed to at least that.

One could probably argue that Mjölnir would probably not be able to destroy them either. Though I would like more opinions on that.

I think I will start with the Misaka stuff already.

 

[Andrew48]

Yeah I don't think LPSaD Fiamma can do what Mathers and Aleister is doing here, mostly because he lack the knowledge to do it. They are using Golden Style magic which was severely tweeked after the battle of Blythe Road, so a lot of these techniques would have been lost.

 

[Zensum]

LPSaD can use biblical magic related to the right hand, but I don't see a reason he should be able to perform any of these spells. Especially since he isn't aware them, as far as we know.

Pretty sure Fiamma used a ceremonial ground and Sasha to summon Gabriel.

At base he is able to utilize power related to the right, some mentioned include the bible which was written with the right, healing hand, revival …etc to an extent. After LPSaD was achieved it was stated he could recreate all of the miracles/legends under christianity so not just the ones reserved to the right hand. Further backed by the explanation of what an existence equal to The One Above God should be capable of. Angel summoning should be a simple and well known phenomenon to accomplish in this state especially being one of the more knowledgeable characters. Yea base needed the SoB and a catalyst to summon Gabriel but this would no longer be a problem to LPSaD. Note*** I don't think he would know spells specific to Golden or the one Aleister used which was stated to be excluded from the bible to cast down the 4 angels.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Wasn't it "held such power that it could recreate any of the legends in Christianity."

not

"could recreate any of the legends in Christianity"?


Aside from that it is questionable to give him abilities he might not be aware of.

 

[Zensum]

It was "or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.". Essentially he has the power to recreate all the phenenomen related to the bible. I feel like he has extensive knowlege on the subject.

 

[LazyHunter]

The legend recreation thing has always been a bit too vague since he didn't really use that functionality. IMO I don't think we should give LPSAD Fiamma these spells, just like we haven't given him other existing Christian based spells like Divine Punishment or Execution of Light.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that the first post seems fine.

 

[Zensum]

@Lazy An argument could be made for him being able to use DP, EoL or DMM, however I agree it would be a stretch to say he can use these very specific Christian based spells without a direct reference in the story. Anyways, sorry if my first post was unclear but my argument is he can produce phenomenon which is referenced numerous times and in LPSaD he can replicate any from the bible. Angel summoning just happens to be a very prevalant one which is why I brought it up. As for functionality we seen it plenty (spawning resources from heaven, dying earth with power of angels, disaster simulation ..etc)

I also agree with OP, I just think Original Grimoire defense/dura is far above mountain level and would require destruction of the earths leylines

 

[SchroKatze]

I agree with both Zen and DT.

 

[Heisuke780]

Zen makes sense tbh. Fiamma was OP AF in ot 22. Also i agree with DT about aleister not being able to do what he did without the bible.

 

[LazyHunter]

So Promestein brought up Stiyl's use of Innocentius as a shield is still "possibly City level", even after the upgrade of Dragon's Breath. We should probably upgrade it, so is there anyone against it?

Also, found some stuff for Aleister.

In NT20 Prologue it is mentioned Aleister can draw power from Academy City for his spells if his in the city, as it's his temple and center of power. I think I recall something similar being said of the Pope and the Vatican in the original series, but I'd have to check.

The pressure from Aleister's foot grew as if to bury Lola's lovely face in the black asphalt. No, that was not just the silver witch's power. Academy City was that magician's holy ground. It was a reproduction of the Abbey of Thelema that had once stood on a small Italian island. She used all of that to apply a "seal" that resembled extreme gravity.

The prologue also seems to say the gravity stuff and the Banner of the West are two different spells, with the first one being an anti-demon spell based on St. Margaret.

"Now, let us follow the story of St. Margaret who worshiped the cross. Because I know you loathe those morality plays as much as I do."

The father pressed her leather shoe's heel against the daughter's forehead.

"I will step on you."

"…ister."

"That is a symbol of stripping away a demon, stealing its power, removing the disaster, and retrieving peace, Great Demon Coronzon."

"Aleister Crowleyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!???"

Golden hair that symbolized devilishness wriggled after spending a very long time gathering power from the moonlight. It emitted a somewhat off-kilter fear that was different from that of a witch from the ancient past or an alien from the future. This was something outside the realm of imagination. If you faced this Great Demon while unprepared, your soul could be damaged and you could be forced to succumb no matter what your physical specs were.

But the magician who had created all of 'modern' Western magic was different.

The silver crushed the gold.

The pressure from Aleister's foot grew as if to bury Lola's lovely face in the black asphalt. No, that was not just the silver witch's power. Academy City was that magician's holy ground. It was a reproduction of the Abbey of Thelema that had once stood on a small Italian island. She used all of that to apply a "seal" that resembled extreme gravity.

"How does it feel to be humiliatingly defeated by what is just? Now, let us move on from St. Margaret and discuss a clever little technique."

And finally a question, should we take this comment from Misaki to mean Aleister has some type of mental defenses, or is it too vague?

Mikoto and Shokuhou responded to that in surprise.

They were unaware of the legendary human named Aleister Crowley, so they only associated the name Aleister with Academy City's board chairman.

"Ehh!? Wait, you mean the person inside the Windowless Building was a girl like us!?"

"(No, that can't be. The person floating upside-down in there was a-…but, wait. This rejection ability? Is the structure inside exactly the same?)"

I should point out that Stiyl did mention in OT14 that magic brain defenses are a thing.

"We don't particularly care if you end up dying from the torture. Necessarius has ways of getting information out of a corpse's brain. Although that's more a question of the level of defenses and the level of damage."

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, with the stiyl thing.


I will add the power thing and separate the spells at some point. (btw. is the grammar and wording ok in the edits I did to Aleister? I can unlock the page if someone wants to do improvements.)


In my opinion the mental defense thing is too vague. I am really not sure if this passage is actually supposed to mean Misaki's mind abilities being rejected.

 

[LazyHunter]

The grammar and wording seem ok to me. The only improvements I would do would be to add the Babalon spell, maybe add a few details about the basis of the Christian spells.

Yeah, it's probably too vague.

 

[LazyHunter]

Since nobody else is commenting, I updated Stiyl's scaling.

So about Junko, she should be at least Wall level from the machine she wrecked, right? She also has fast Mid-Low level Regenerationn and can block low level lasers. What do you think her lifting strength would be for those steel beams she used during the fight?

 

[Zensum]

The Aleister and Stiyl changes look good. I guess Mathers Accel ..etc are next topics in OP to discuss?

For the lpsad, since the right hand/mircale stuff is pretty much there I think re-wording and then linking a list of them (about 150+) not to clutter the profile would be best , then making a note under the lpsad paragraph saying the one miracle which would make him incredibly powerful most likely can't be recreated due to achieving the state in the incorrect Aeon, post Book of Law... etc where the phase of christianity holds less prominence/supremecy.

 

[SchroKatze]

Zensum's proposal seems to be effective. I agree with him.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It was "or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.". Essentially he has the power to recreate all the phenenomen related to the bible. I feel like he has extensive knowlege on the subject.

It was "In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity" De facto not stating that he can recreate any miracle in the bible, just that he has enough power to do so.

In the first place scaling to outside sources assuming that Kamachi knows them, is leaning far out of the window. Not to mention that what is a miracle and what isn't is very debateable (not everything god does is necessarily a miracle). To that comes the fact that we would have to know that Fiamma even knows them.


So yeah, I'm really against listing random miracles he has never shown or was specifically to do on his page.

 

[Zensum]

@DT It says, or the power of the attack can also be used to recreate any of those legends. Sounds like semantics tbh. It says "He held the power at the core of a legend.". That and given the equvilancy of his status this isnt really a stretch. Espeically with all the SoG quotes "level of output, it would not be known as the power that the Son of God should wield.", "I am trying to create various phenomena using the miracles and blessings of the Son of God to their fullest and this bastard doesn't care!?" ...etc.

Miracles = any observed supernatural event. Using the miracles mentioned/refernced in the story is also fine but it should be noted they dont differ at all from the actual outside source that its intended to be based on. Im sure he is well versed in this topic given his postion. Most of this is common knowlege to regular people in the story after all magic is based on idols in toaru.

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree with DontTalkDT, I'm against giving Fiamma abilities he hasn't been shown to have from something as vague as this.

 

[SchroKatze]

It isn't as vague as it seems. Fiamma already has miracle-related things due to the Right Hand Symbolism.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust the judgements of DontTalk and LazyHunter.

 

[SchroKatze]

The judgement about it being "too vague" even when Fiamma has multiple statements and some feats of being able to reproduce miracles?

 

[DontTalkDT]

@Schro: this is the equivalent of taking a character with the ability to create things from nothing and list the things he can create as "Antimatter, Black Holes, Hydrogen Bombs and Kryptonite". It's too unspecific to justify those cases.

This is also basically scaling someone from feats of a different piece of fiction, because it was vaguely referenced.

Let's keep Fiammas abilities to the things that take place in to aru instead of making him composite jesus.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that DontTalk makes sense.

 

[Zensum]

@DT This deffinetly isn't the same thing as that and i'm are not advocating to write a laundry type list into the abilties section on the profile. The profile just needs to say he ca create the miracles of the right, christanity. The difference between this and your example is that making a list from nothing is arbitary while here we have direct references in the story to a source that also canonly exists in the story. For example even the story list several phenomenon and there are obviosuly too many to list so it will say etc or word it like a run on list. In the same way we know he has 103k books but we list the ones that the story acknowleges so far until we know more, you could do the same here.

There are a myraid of statemets like this. "What I possess is not the right arm itself but the power that should reside in the right arm. The right is used in most Christian rituals. Archangel Michael cut down the leader of the fallen angels with his right hand, the Son of God healed the sick with his right hand, the Bible was written with the right hand, and, well, there are many others.", "In other words, I can freely use a great number of Christian supernatural phenomena.", "That is correct. You could say my right hand has the power to create... miracles." Fiamma slowly moved through the rubble and continued. "The Son of God used his right hand to cure the illnesses of the sick and revive the deceased. It was the right hand which drew the cross and scattered the holy water used for the baptism of Christ." Idk how kamachi would have to word it to make it apparent. It's not wrong to say Fiamma can create miracle X its more wrong to say he cant make X miracle without evidence agaisnt it. Miracle creation is 100% a thing as the story and author and charcter statements tell us, however which and what that fully entails can be debated in whatever threads.

 

[Demise0]

I don't really get what's so vague about the miracle creation since it has a multitude of statements and some feats aswell. So yeah I agree with Zensum.

 

[CynicalWeeaboo]

Agreed as well. The miracle creation stuff is generally pretty simple and backed up by statements from both characters and narrators if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Antvasima]

Have DontTalkDT's suggestions been applied yet?

 

[Sir_Silent_orchestra]

I think Zensum is makes sense!

 

[SchroKatze]

Have DontTalkDT's suggestions been applied yet?

The discussion isn't finished yet, Ant. Stop ignoring anyone that isn't Lazy or DT.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I agree that Zenzum suggestion is more make sense here. Also what Kaze said, don't ignoring argument who not named DontTalk or Lazy, because they are most the knowledge doesn't mean they are perfect.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright.