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BTW does Accel get the ability to hit non-corporals now or no?
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To Aru NT updates and some other minor stuff
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
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I have to agree with SchroKatze, the opinions and votes of others shouldn't be ignored just because I or DT disagree. Seems like we are the only ones who are against it so far, and nobody else seems interested in voting after several days, so we should probably continue the revisions.
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Can someone link me the complete quotes for everything that they want to be mentioned in favor of the miracle stuff? (with source)
I will write up a thread about it so that we can get more opinions then just the ones of to aru people.
Next up is mathers I guess. For accel I wait for a calc about Qliphah's dura to be evaluated. (Though I could already add the magic stuff, I guess)
I will write up a thread about it so that we can get more opinions then just the ones of to aru people.
Next up is mathers I guess. For accel I wait for a calc about Qliphah's dura to be evaluated. (Though I could already add the magic stuff, I guess)
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@DontTalkDT
Can I fix some small issues with Mathers' abilities section? NT21's elemental magic and Belzébuth should be also available for the real Mathers.
Rereading the fight, Aleister' spell against the Archangels might not be something that can scale to her AP, and thus Mathers'. It looks like Aleis-tan used magic to specifically banish Uriel, and that once one of the four was down the other threww followed, presumably because the summoning spell was based on harmony as Aleister mentions. Since the spell was specifically an anti-Uriel banishing spell based on how it's the one of the four who's not a angel in the bible/canon, it might not be an AP scalable spell. What does everyone think?
This too was not found in the bible.
In fact, she called on the name of an angel who had been criticized for not being mentioned in the bible.
"Uriel is the excommunicated angel, a demon who fell to the depths of the earth. Uriel is one of the seven who was driven from their throne of light for humanity's convenience and is not found in the stories of God. The canon is absolute. In the name of Pope Zachary, I shall smash your angel worship and thus your harmony with those four!!"
First, a protective circle appeared around the silver girl.
Then great waves of explosive flames burst out across the 180 degrees in front of her.
The fires of hell erupted from the depths of the earth and rejected the protector of their gate. Just like a red light covering up red writing. Once one collapsed, the others were dragged down with it. The four angels dissolved like a false image and the massive flames continued on to burn Mathers.
Can I fix some small issues with Mathers' abilities section? NT21's elemental magic and Belzébuth should be also available for the real Mathers.
Rereading the fight, Aleister' spell against the Archangels might not be something that can scale to her AP, and thus Mathers'. It looks like Aleis-tan used magic to specifically banish Uriel, and that once one of the four was down the other threww followed, presumably because the summoning spell was based on harmony as Aleister mentions. Since the spell was specifically an anti-Uriel banishing spell based on how it's the one of the four who's not a angel in the bible/canon, it might not be an AP scalable spell. What does everyone think?
This too was not found in the bible.
In fact, she called on the name of an angel who had been criticized for not being mentioned in the bible.
"Uriel is the excommunicated angel, a demon who fell to the depths of the earth. Uriel is one of the seven who was driven from their throne of light for humanity's convenience and is not found in the stories of God. The canon is absolute. In the name of Pope Zachary, I shall smash your angel worship and thus your harmony with those four!!"
First, a protective circle appeared around the silver girl.
Then great waves of explosive flames burst out across the 180 degrees in front of her.
The fires of hell erupted from the depths of the earth and rejected the protector of their gate. Just like a red light covering up red writing. Once one collapsed, the others were dragged down with it. The four angels dissolved like a false image and the massive flames continued on to burn Mathers.
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- Thread starter
- #47
I had for now just separated real from Mather's due to showings, but I agree that those techniques should also be available for the real one. I have no problem with fixing such small issues.
I think the angel spell should be AP appliciable. The spell was anti-uriel based, but ultimately destroyed Uriel through the fire which should show its brute force and in turn Mathers which could easily stop the spell through a counter spell.
To that comes that Mathers being able to casually call Archangels to the battlefield bears testament to the magicians power in and of itself.
I think the angel spell should be AP appliciable. The spell was anti-uriel based, but ultimately destroyed Uriel through the fire which should show its brute force and in turn Mathers which could easily stop the spell through a counter spell.
To that comes that Mathers being able to casually call Archangels to the battlefield bears testament to the magicians power in and of itself.
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I'll take a look at it.
Just thought to mention that could also be an interpretion.
Just thought to mention that could also be an interpretion.
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What's the actual AP of Gabriel BTW? In Teratons
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Isn't Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers (Toaru) a far too long of a name?
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There isn't another I'm-Not-Saying-That-Again anywhere else
Maybe just Samuel Mathers?
Maybe just Samuel Mathers?
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The title of Mathers page should be his full name. The Toaru part can probably be dropped.
Pretty sure it was nowhere said whether or not he was harmed by the LP railgun. It was just said that they fired at him, that it was unclear whether it has annihilated him and once Touma got back unto the carriage it was said that he now just stood there without injury.
Whether he lacks injuries due to not being hurt in the first place or being shot through and then just regenerating is entirely open.
I will do the fiamma thread once I have time to do so (and have checked context).
Pretty sure it was nowhere said whether or not he was harmed by the LP railgun. It was just said that they fired at him, that it was unclear whether it has annihilated him and once Touma got back unto the carriage it was said that he now just stood there without injury.
Whether he lacks injuries due to not being hurt in the first place or being shot through and then just regenerating is entirely open.
I will do the fiamma thread once I have time to do so (and have checked context).
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So why is that interpretation more correct? There is nothing hinting Regenerationn or shooting through, all implications say LP isn't enough to defeat him. It's open to interpretation sure but it wouldn't be allowed to be considered as such if its not listed on the profile as a possibility.
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VoidGoji
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Not even the attack that had brought down Board Chairman Aleister's strongest fortress had been enough to destroy that man.
Mathers's thick cloak and scarf flapped behind him as he stood in the same spot as before. He would not be taken out like Edward Berridge had been.
Not a single mention of a scratch. Also, the wind resulting from the attack just made his cloak and scarf flap behind him. Thats a pretty explicit statement of him tanking it. Him being able to regen isn't a good reason to say that he regenerated and didn't tank the attack, specially when even Accelerator couldn't harm him.
Mathers's thick cloak and scarf flapped behind him as he stood in the same spot as before. He would not be taken out like Edward Berridge had been.
Not a single mention of a scratch. Also, the wind resulting from the attack just made his cloak and scarf flap behind him. Thats a pretty explicit statement of him tanking it. Him being able to regen isn't a good reason to say that he regenerated and didn't tank the attack, specially when even Accelerator couldn't harm him.
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Does Aleister scale to High 6A?
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- Thread starter
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LP Railgun isn't enough to defeat him regardless, because of his regen.
Hence it's entirely indeterminate if this is a durability feat. Occam's razor would point towards it being regen, since we know he has the regen. We don't usually assume characters are more powerful than they demonstrate.
To that comes that it would mean Aleister is physically continent level making a huge power jump from nowhere, so...
Other than the possibility not being disproven there is really not a lot going for that.
Hence it's entirely indeterminate if this is a durability feat. Occam's razor would point towards it being regen, since we know he has the regen. We don't usually assume characters are more powerful than they demonstrate.
To that comes that it would mean Aleister is physically continent level making a huge power jump from nowhere, so...
Other than the possibility not being disproven there is really not a lot going for that.
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The text leans toward him being unfazed without even moving. Just because a character can regen doesn't mean they did especially with no indication or statement. We also know he's demonstrated the power to drag down 4 world ending angels casually I don't think this is a stretch for either him or Aleister to be on this level.
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I agree with DontTalk on this one. There's no firm evidence of Mathers tanking the Liquid Proof Railgun. The novel description of THE events has him being attacked, specifically states its results on Mathers are unclear (because Touma couldn't see Mathers due to the violent wind and the intense flash of light created by the attack) and shortly after Touma climbs to the carriage and finds Mathers still there, with the narration stating he wasn't destroyed like Berridge was, who you know, died saving Mathers from the boosted orbital laser, which did harm Mathers' body by the way.
Aleister being High 6-A physically would be a outlier, because besides the magic gods, LPSAD Fiamma using Holy Right for a physical blow or Accelerator theoretically applying the planet's rotation to a punch no other character is physically that high, and Aleister's best physical feats pre-Bible spells is fighting Saint-level fighters like Kanzaki or Knight Leader. Defeating the archangels with a spell is unrelated to physical AP, so bringing that up is completely meaningless, this is not a series where you can automatically scale striking AP to magic AP. Not to mention archangels aren't High 6-A anyway.
His scarf flapping in the wind somehow being explicit proof of him tanking the attack is a nonsensical argument. He's on top of a moving carriage, a magically boosted going at 180 km/h that had already left behind the wind caused by the attack (that's why Touma was able to see Mathers again, no more light/wind). The attack's side effects like the flash of light and the burst of violent wind affected anyone nearby anyway.
Accelerator not being able to harm him is another falacious argument, because it's clear that he doesn't always attack people at full power, and what specifically bothered Accelerator when he attacked him was how his "destroy blood vessels and nerves" trick didn't work, which specifically was because of his non-human body.
Aleister being High 6-A physically would be a outlier, because besides the magic gods, LPSAD Fiamma using Holy Right for a physical blow or Accelerator theoretically applying the planet's rotation to a punch no other character is physically that high, and Aleister's best physical feats pre-Bible spells is fighting Saint-level fighters like Kanzaki or Knight Leader. Defeating the archangels with a spell is unrelated to physical AP, so bringing that up is completely meaningless, this is not a series where you can automatically scale striking AP to magic AP. Not to mention archangels aren't High 6-A anyway.
His scarf flapping in the wind somehow being explicit proof of him tanking the attack is a nonsensical argument. He's on top of a moving carriage, a magically boosted going at 180 km/h that had already left behind the wind caused by the attack (that's why Touma was able to see Mathers again, no more light/wind). The attack's side effects like the flash of light and the burst of violent wind affected anyone nearby anyway.
Accelerator not being able to harm him is another falacious argument, because it's clear that he doesn't always attack people at full power, and what specifically bothered Accelerator when he attacked him was how his "destroy blood vessels and nerves" trick didn't work, which specifically was because of his non-human body.
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Back, all that tells us is its up to interpretation like we said but there is no indication of regen in this instance other than the fact he is capable of it if neccesary. Regarding the orbital laser, it was boosted by Accel sure. We know when Accel redirects light based attacks he not only increases the power but also adds in different properties and vectors to an attack to make it something new like when it fully erased some DM clones rather than just destroying them. Its only feat is damaging Mathers isn't a debunk.
Yea those are chars with High 6-A attacks. Defeating saints isn't a debunk. Killed Uriel with fire is AP, no one said anything about striking here I dont think. Talking about Mathers, summoning angels requires controlling Telesma masses. It's why magicians or even saints can barley call down/control a % worth of one. Mathers can control 4 High 6-B archangels worth at once.
The narration said he stood at the same spot and was unmoved. If he was on a 180 km/h moving carriage LP Railgun didn't even knock him from his original spot.
Full power isn't an issue, Accelerator redirecting the vectors of a body would effect it's vectors regardless of if it's a conventional human or not. Accelerator obviously wasn't holding back considering he went to reverse the body internally immediately as well as striking him. The fact that it didn't trigger his regen is a defense feat.
Yea those are chars with High 6-A attacks. Defeating saints isn't a debunk. Killed Uriel with fire is AP, no one said anything about striking here I dont think. Talking about Mathers, summoning angels requires controlling Telesma masses. It's why magicians or even saints can barley call down/control a % worth of one. Mathers can control 4 High 6-B archangels worth at once.
The narration said he stood at the same spot and was unmoved. If he was on a 180 km/h moving carriage LP Railgun didn't even knock him from his original spot.
Full power isn't an issue, Accelerator redirecting the vectors of a body would effect it's vectors regardless of if it's a conventional human or not. Accelerator obviously wasn't holding back considering he went to reverse the body internally immediately as well as striking him. The fact that it didn't trigger his regen is a defense feat.
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There is no evidence of Accelerator adding properties or vectors to the laser to do anything special to Mathers, in fact the narration says that Accelerator just sent it back with double the power, so you would need evidence for Academy City's orbital lasers being at the kind of levels you want for the laser beam to not count as a point against him being High 6-A.
The optical attack had already been launched straight down from satellite orbit. And where was Academy City's #1, Accelerator, who Mathers himself had intercepted with a stomp earlier?
"Reflection and focusing. It is high time you experienced just what Academy City can do, you philistine."
An even greater attack shot back up from below as if to rebel against heaven. The #1 had taken the satellite weapon head-on and then sent it right back with double the power.
If you're talking about him destroying the Sisters DM replicas he was using Mugino's meltdowner beam. The "new form and properties" bit is about how he turned a single beam into a wider attack to take three of them out completely instead of the thinner beam harmlessly piercing through their bodies. If he could do that with any attack he would have taken out Kakine's regular DM clones earlier instead of running away.
I'm not saying that defeating Saints is a debunk, I'm saying that Aleister's best physical feat pre-Bible is defeating Saints, and yes, SchroKatze is arguing that both of them being physically High 6-A would not be an outlie rso you would need more evidence of blood sacrifice + bible being such as huge upgrade as claimed by SchroKatze.
Characters being moved or not by attacks in fiction is usually decided by dramatic tension. Accelerator merely punching him sent him away through several gravestones, yet the LPR and Aleister's attacks during their duel fail to do launch him despite both being stronger. So no, him being in the same spot when Touma can look at him again is not good evidence for him tanking it. I can argue that the LPR just tore a hole through his body that he regenerated while Touma couldn't see him and my argument has the exact same value as yours because neither of us have any actual evidence to support it.
You're wrong, Accelerator immediately points out the possibility that the thing that messed up his attack was Mathers having a different body structure, and Aleister confirms it when they find out he and the others are grimoires. It isn't a defense feat, and if Accelerator was using his full power he would have used the earth's rotation and/or caused more collateral damage than that.
"What the hell is going on?"
Those words were far removed from scientific or logical.
He sounded like he had run across a strange jinx.
"I tried using my reflection to shred all his blood vessels and nerves. So did I screw it up, or does the human anatomy in my head not apply to him?"
[...]
And on that note, why had Academy City's #1's special attack ― the one that destroyed all the blood vessels and nerves in the target's body ― failed to work on him?
The answer was simple. An original grimoire would never want to come in contact with Imagine Breaker. And since he was technically not human, it was no surprise his circulation of blood and bioelectricity differed from a normal person. So even if Accelerator was the best the science side had to offer, it was only natural his calculations had not fit.
The optical attack had already been launched straight down from satellite orbit. And where was Academy City's #1, Accelerator, who Mathers himself had intercepted with a stomp earlier?
"Reflection and focusing. It is high time you experienced just what Academy City can do, you philistine."
An even greater attack shot back up from below as if to rebel against heaven. The #1 had taken the satellite weapon head-on and then sent it right back with double the power.
If you're talking about him destroying the Sisters DM replicas he was using Mugino's meltdowner beam. The "new form and properties" bit is about how he turned a single beam into a wider attack to take three of them out completely instead of the thinner beam harmlessly piercing through their bodies. If he could do that with any attack he would have taken out Kakine's regular DM clones earlier instead of running away.
I'm not saying that defeating Saints is a debunk, I'm saying that Aleister's best physical feat pre-Bible is defeating Saints, and yes, SchroKatze is arguing that both of them being physically High 6-A would not be an outlie rso you would need more evidence of blood sacrifice + bible being such as huge upgrade as claimed by SchroKatze.
Characters being moved or not by attacks in fiction is usually decided by dramatic tension. Accelerator merely punching him sent him away through several gravestones, yet the LPR and Aleister's attacks during their duel fail to do launch him despite both being stronger. So no, him being in the same spot when Touma can look at him again is not good evidence for him tanking it. I can argue that the LPR just tore a hole through his body that he regenerated while Touma couldn't see him and my argument has the exact same value as yours because neither of us have any actual evidence to support it.
You're wrong, Accelerator immediately points out the possibility that the thing that messed up his attack was Mathers having a different body structure, and Aleister confirms it when they find out he and the others are grimoires. It isn't a defense feat, and if Accelerator was using his full power he would have used the earth's rotation and/or caused more collateral damage than that.
"What the hell is going on?"
Those words were far removed from scientific or logical.
He sounded like he had run across a strange jinx.
"I tried using my reflection to shred all his blood vessels and nerves. So did I screw it up, or does the human anatomy in my head not apply to him?"
[...]
And on that note, why had Academy City's #1's special attack ― the one that destroyed all the blood vessels and nerves in the target's body ― failed to work on him?
The answer was simple. An original grimoire would never want to come in contact with Imagine Breaker. And since he was technically not human, it was no surprise his circulation of blood and bioelectricity differed from a normal person. So even if Accelerator was the best the science side had to offer, it was only natural his calculations had not fit.
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Even then accel created a counter for Mather in like what, 10 minutes ?
i think the double power, is just the fact that having it been concentrated it had less area to cover so more power in the area around mathers. the only thing accel could have done is increasing the intesity as the speed is already capped and there no real mass for photon
i think the double power, is just the fact that having it been concentrated it had less area to cover so more power in the area around mathers. the only thing accel could have done is increasing the intesity as the speed is already capped and there no real mass for photon
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Essentially the AC's lasers power is pretty unquantifiable. Besides being an attack AC thought might deal with High 6-A Fiamma and double the attack damaging Mather's. I wasn't talking about just any attack I mean specifically reflection of light based beams like the optical weapon and the Meltdowner where he's shown he can add different properties and vectors. Meltdowner didn't just pierce the DM it blew the clones fully away or made huge holes. In Accelerators case it stresses not even the smallest components remained.
SchroKatze can expand on what he means by striking then. I'm just discussing AP/Dura. I'm arguing casually controlling 4 archangels worth of Telesma, tanking LP Railgun would be grounds for 6-A.
Dramatic tension? Or he was actually unfazed. We know Accelerator punches aren't just merely forcing someone away with raw power so this makes sense. Even if we assume "LPR just tore a hole through his body" and like you said he was on a moving carriage at 180 km/h, are you arguing its easier to believe something with the force of the High 6-A LP Railgun couldn't even knock him back? Rather than assume he took the force and stood in the exact same spot like is stated?
My argument is that Accelerator wasn't holding back as he choose to use his most serious methods first even though they obviously didn't work. Mathers regen not being trigged by Accelerator 's serious strikes using vector redirection is a defense feat. The earth rotation is his highest destructive output yea, but i'm not arguing he used that on Mathers
I doubt we will agree on interpretation so this will be my last post on this topic.
SchroKatze can expand on what he means by striking then. I'm just discussing AP/Dura. I'm arguing casually controlling 4 archangels worth of Telesma, tanking LP Railgun would be grounds for 6-A.
Dramatic tension? Or he was actually unfazed. We know Accelerator punches aren't just merely forcing someone away with raw power so this makes sense. Even if we assume "LPR just tore a hole through his body" and like you said he was on a moving carriage at 180 km/h, are you arguing its easier to believe something with the force of the High 6-A LP Railgun couldn't even knock him back? Rather than assume he took the force and stood in the exact same spot like is stated?
My argument is that Accelerator wasn't holding back as he choose to use his most serious methods first even though they obviously didn't work. Mathers regen not being trigged by Accelerator 's serious strikes using vector redirection is a defense feat. The earth rotation is his highest destructive output yea, but i'm not arguing he used that on Mathers
I doubt we will agree on interpretation so this will be my last post on this topic.
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Well technically they are grimores, wasn't there some feats for grimores in to aru already, they are indestructible by in universe standards, and we know that there exist spell with at least 6 a power, they could just have used those to get rid of unwanted grimores (ex the aleister one)
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recently I created a thread regarding two of Gabriel's abilities: His regen should be Low-Godly, for his true body exists in another phase, so he should be able to recreate his physical body as long as the original exists, and that may be extends to other angels and demons.
And also, the tier of Astro in Hand should be 4A (multi-solar system) because it could erase all stars in the sky.
And also, the tier of Astro in Hand should be 4A (multi-solar system) because it could erase all stars in the sky.
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The Fiamma stuff is being discussed on another thread, so I think the only thing left are Accelerator's additions from the latest volume; the trick to block transferences of power and Qliphah Puzzle 545 as a summon. We should also give him Energy Manipulation, but that's something he should already have had before this.
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