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Time-manipulation/Time-Stop range revisions

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Reiner04

Reiner04

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I want to know if there is any specific reason for Time-stop by default range being 3A/High 3A in its page despite its just being a sub set of Time manipulation and gravity manipulation page.

If Time manipulation range is not 3A by default and so for the subset/sub power Time stop, infact it's quite obvious in fiction for the range of time manipulation or time stop to vary.

even manipulating gravity itself can lead to time manipulation like slow, fast and even time stop.

So is it necessary for it to be universal in range by default? Does it mean we are giving everyone with time stop ability 3A range as default? What about the range of time manipulation then?
 
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I mean, you're stopping time, kinda speaks for itself.

All time abilities are default universal unless given reason otherwise (like, showing a specific AOE such as Hit's time manip, or focused on a single object liek some time accel's).

Gravity manip usually is shown by the dudes in question to be focused in one spot, that's more a issue on them, not the ability.
 
Time stop page says.
Unless users are shown or stated to have limits in terms of range, or that their ranges extend to areas beyond the universe, then they are assumed to be universal or higher by the virtue of affecting the very flow of time itself, thus all of time in the universe.
Click to expand...
Manipulating flow of time is a time manipulation even if it's the case with stopping them it can be done over any range.
 
reiner
Click to expand...

Everybody with time manipulation can't stop time. I can think of many time manipulators who can't stop time, such as Link from Majora's Mask (Can rewind time, slow down time, and speed up time, and even travel through time or move objects through time, but can not stop time).

The reason why some pages vary is because some characters just show different ranges, we have a default assumption, but if they give reason for us to believe otherwise, they just get what they show or said to have. The Time Stop page would be correct, default is 3-A, if you stop time, well no reason to assume you're arbitrarily only stopping a localized facet of it and causing time discrepancies on a global scale, but if the dude says "I can stop time within a 1km range", well now it's just 1km, that's on him tho and wouldn't be the default assumption.
 
Chariot190 said:
Everybody with time manipulation can't stop time. I can think of many time manipulators who can't stop time, such as Link from Majora's Mask
Click to expand...
Not a point tho, in both cases we are manipulating the flow of time, either to stop it or slow/fast it. Either one is capable of all or few, in all cases we are altering the "flow of time". So there is no reason for ranges to vary In seprate profiles.

Maltruant from ben ten, Toby from Beyblade (using gravity) and whatnot can stop time but in range.
 
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Also I'll suggest to refrain from bringing characters, there are dozens of seprate ways to manipulate time, this thread is not specific for any verse but based of wording used in their respective pages and for common standards that should apply to all unless it's case by case situation.
 
Reiner said:
Not a point tho, in both cases we are manipulating the flow of time, either to stop it or slow/fast it. Either one is capable of all or few, in all cases we are altering the "flow of time". So there is no reason for ranges to vary In seprate profiles.
Click to expand...
Yes, the default should be the same as stop unless proven otherwise.
If they vary, it'd be because they fall under the "proven otherwise".
Reiner said:
Maltruant from ben ten, Toby from Beyblade (using gravity) and whatnot can stop time but in range.
Click to expand...
Is it because they're shown to have limited range? If so that'd be why, if not then yeah, as the page says, the default assumption would be Uni range.
Reiner said:
Also I'll suggest to refrain from bringing characters, there are dozens of seprate ways to manipulate time, this thread is not specific for any verse but based of wording used in their respective pages and for common standards that should apply to all unless it's case by case situation.
Click to expand...
If that's what you're arguing, then yeah I agree, there should be a standard default assumption across all forms of time manip, they can vary when evidence actually suggests they vary based on their own context, but not before.
 
KingPin0422 said:
I... don't have the full context for this. Are our standards that stopping time is assumed to affect the entire universe, but other forms of time manipulation are not? Because if so, that does seem pretty wacky.
Click to expand...
Yes, as per our standards time stop range is 3a/high 3a by default but other forms aren't. I also don't know why it's like that.
When it's all just manipulation of timeflow.
 
That would be exactly why it's 3-A, if you're effecting the flow of time, that's obviously gonna be Uni in range, given that's kinda what time encompasses, if you effect time, you're gonna be effecting that.

Of course if a medium portrays otherwise that's fine, but that's on them, verses that don't actively limit themselves shouldn't be punished for it because another verse made a fucky.
 
Chariot190 said:
That would be exactly why it's 3-A, if you're effecting the flow of time, that's obviously gonna be Uni in range, given that's kinda what time encompasses, if you effect time, you're gonna be effecting that.
Click to expand...
Then all of time manipulation default should be ranged to entire universe unless shown or proven otherwise because all of that is just normally manipulating the flow of time.
 
That's what I'm saying yeah, unless reason is given to think otherwise, time is time, if they don't actively limit themselves or portray it as limited, if you're effecting time, well, you're just effecting time, nothing more and nothing less, it should logically have Uni AOE.

But if a character gives reason to think otherwise, that wouldn't really effect the ability inherently, just them.
 
Chariot190 said:
That's what I'm saying yeah, unless reason is given to think otherwise, time is time, if they don't actively limit themselves or portray it as limited, if you're effecting time, well, you're just effecting time, nothing more and nothing less, it should logically have Uni AOE.

But if a character gives reason to think otherwise, that wouldn't really effect the ability inherently, just them.
Click to expand...
Ok then I got your point, that's what I mentioned in the OP, either range all of them to entire universe or yeet it off from time-stop page. Let's wait for staff members to decide as per.
 
I am not fine with any form of time manipulation having infinite or universal range if not stated in the verse.
Time flows differently in different parts of the universe, so why assume speeding up time, slowing it down or stopping it, will affect the entire universe when it was not stated to do so?

So it's either you add default universal range for any time manipulation ability which will not be accurate as time flows differently everywhere in the universe.
Or we make it case by case and based on what was shown or stated.
 
Pain_to12 said:
I am not fine with any form of time manipulation having infinite or universal range if not stated in the verse.
Time flows differently in different parts of the universe, so why assume speeding up time, slowing it down or stopping it, will affect the entire universe when it was not stated to do so?

So it's either you add default universal range for any time manipulation ability which will not be accurate as time flows differently everywhere in the universe.
Or we make it case by case and based on what was shown or stated.
Click to expand...
This seems to make sense to me, but it is best to wait for further staff input.
 
Pain_to12 said:
I am not fine with any form of time manipulation having infinite or universal range if not stated in the verse.
Time flows differently in different parts of the universe, so why assume speeding up time, slowing it down or stopping it, will affect the entire universe when it was not stated to do so?

So it's either you add default universal range for any time manipulation ability which will not be accurate as time flows differently everywhere in the universe.
Or we make it case by case and based on what was shown or stated.
Click to expand...
this is fine tbh
 
Time flow at different rate in different part of the universe doesn't really matter, when you affect the flow of time, all get affected nonetheless. If only certain area get affected while other do not being affected, then it is anti-feat for said time stop's range

Also, time flow at different rate is General Relativity, it is due to different object with different mass bend the geometry of space-time create time dilation. Fiction tend to not really go into detail about this.

Lastly time dilation or not, the entire universe subjected under the same temporal axis, time flow at the same direction. Unless we deal with time flow at different direction inside one universe, then it is a different matter

All and all, default range for time hax is universal is fine, other situation is case-by-case stuff
 
Pain_to12 said:
I am not fine with any form of time manipulation having infinite or universal range if not stated in the verse.
Time flows differently in different parts of the universe, so why assume speeding up time, slowing it down or stopping it, will affect the entire universe when it was not stated to do so?

So it's either you add default universal range for any time manipulation ability which will not be accurate as time flows differently everywhere in the universe.
Or we make it case by case and based on what was shown or stated.
Click to expand...
Time flows differently in different parts of the universe due to completely unrelated things not related to manipulating time (as a whole) itself.

It's still one "whole" time, if they're flat out manipulating time and they don't actively say it's localized, logical assumption is it effects everything or to be more precise, whatever "time" encompasses.
Your examples I'm sure you're thinking of (correct me if I'm wrong on assuming this, you didn't specify) is just effecting time in a localized area due to things like wacky black holes and gravity and stuff I honestly don't feel like explaining and you yourself probably know full well how it works anyhow.

If a character stops time, why would we assume they're not actually stopping time as a whole but rather just an arbitrary localized area? Same goes for the rest. Time slow, time acceleration, etc, if it works by manipulating time itself, well, time is time, it's not fair to arbitrarily limit it to time in one area because gravity can do fucky stuff (unless they manipulate time via gravity? In that case yeah that's fair it'd be limited to the gravity's aoe instead), this goes against occam's razer and actively requires extra assumptions in how the abilities work if not elaborated upon to assume it's only localized. I'm not so sure I agree with this stance imo sorry.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Also, time flow at different rate is General Relativity, it is due to different object with different mass bend the geometry of space-time create time dilation. Fiction tend to not really go into detail about this.
Click to expand...
Not really tho, it's quite common in fiction to have varies range for time hax, doctor strange, Dragonball and whatnot. But I can see what you meant.
Chariot190 said:
Your examples I'm sure you're thinking of (correct me if I'm wrong on assuming this, you didn't specify) is just effecting time in a localized area due to things like wacky black holes and gravity and stuff I honestly don't feel like explaining and you yourself probably know full well how it works anyhow
Click to expand...
Makes sense, so if a character shown to stop or manipulate time via general relativity (like twisted tampo from Beyblade) they won't be assume to have 3a range but if not then entire universe.

That said I am also fine with universal range time hax but it should be for both pages as by default unless shown otherwise by fiction or else yeet it off as it will not make sense.
 
Reiner said:
Not really tho, it's quite common in fiction to have varies range for time hax, doctor strange, Dragonball and whatnot. But I can see what you meant.
Click to expand...
No, what i mean is fiction tend to not going detail into time dilation or general relativity, about time flow at different rate in different part of the universe. Unless said fiction is heavily scientific-themed. Most of the time they tend to left everything vague, or assume that the flow rate is the same across the entire universe
 
Chariot190 said:
Time flows differently in different parts of the universe due to completely unrelated things not related to manipulating time (as a whole) itself.

It's still one "whole" time, if they're flat out manipulating time and they don't actively say it's localized, logical assumption is it effects everything or to be more precise, whatever "time" encompasses.
Your examples I'm sure you're thinking of (correct me if I'm wrong on assuming this, you didn't specify) is just effecting time in a localized area due to things like wacky black holes and gravity and stuff I honestly don't feel like explaining and you yourself probably know full well how it works anyhow.

If a character stops time, why would we assume they're not actually stopping time as a whole but rather just an arbitrary localized area? Same goes for the rest. Time slow, time acceleration, etc, if it works by manipulating time itself, well, time is time, it's not fair to arbitrarily limit it to time in one area because gravity can do fucky stuff (unless they manipulate time via gravity? In that case yeah that's fair it'd be limited to the gravity's aoe instead), this goes against occam's razer and actively requires extra assumptions in how the abilities work if not elaborated upon to assume it's only localized. I'm not so sure I agree with this stance imo sorry.
Click to expand...
I am in agreement with this stance. If the time-related ability only works in a localized area, that's more so on the user and the verse mechanics than being a time manipulation thing overall.
 
So currently, majority is leaning towards the agreement for time hax range to be set as universal by default unless shown or stated otherwise.
 
PainKiller07 said:
Shouldn't it be Universal+ (if we take universal range by default) as time is the 4th dimension?
Click to expand...
depend on feat and statement i think, time alone is not 4d, it is 4d due to space-time involving 3 spatial dimensions, and 1 time axis, time axis contain uncountable infinite amount of 3 spatial dimensional snapshot on its length, thus make time being 4D (Uncountable infinite 3D = 4D). So i think if time hax in qeustion affect the entire flow of time then said hax is 4D, if not then we default it to only capable of affecting one or some points on time axis which is just 3D
 
Chariot190 said:
Time flows differently in different parts of the universe due to completely unrelated things not related to manipulating time (as a whole) itself.

It's still one "whole" time, if they're flat out manipulating time and they don't actively say it's localized, logical assumption is it effects everything or to be more precise, whatever "time" encompasses.
Your examples I'm sure you're thinking of (correct me if I'm wrong on assuming this, you didn't specify) is just effecting time in a localized area due to things like wacky black holes and gravity and stuff I honestly don't feel like explaining and you yourself probably know full well how it works anyhow.

If a character stops time, why would we assume they're not actually stopping time as a whole but rather just an arbitrary localized area? Same goes for the rest. Time slow, time acceleration, etc, if it works by manipulating time itself, well, time is time, it's not fair to arbitrarily limit it to time in one area because gravity can do fucky stuff (unless they manipulate time via gravity? In that case yeah that's fair it'd be limited to the gravity's aoe instead), this goes against occam's razer and actively requires extra assumptions in how the abilities work if not elaborated upon to assume it's only localized. I'm not so sure I agree with this stance imo sorry.
Click to expand...
I can't say I disagree with this tbh
But won't the bigger assumption be that a character that has no feat of such range, stopping time across the entire universe when what was shown is a town or a planet and no statement to hint universal range?
The time flows faster and slower is an example of how time flow at a part of the universe does not really affect time flow in another part of the universe, so you can stop time in a localized area, and time in other areas would not be affected.
 
So what currently has been accepted all over:-
  • Range of time manipulation would be default to universal unless shown or stated otherwise.
  • time manipulation via gravity manipulation will be assumed to be localised rather than default to have universal range unless stated or shown.
  • time manipulation via pocket dimensions won't be assumed to have universal range unless shown/stated.
 
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PainKiller07 said:
Shouldn't it be Universal+ (if we take universal range by default) as time is the 4th dimension?
Click to expand...

Technically that would be paradoxical tho, no? Cus think about it, if a character Time Stops all of time in the universe’s time continuity, and NOT just the time in a “snapshot” of the universe….

That would mean the timestop would have been present in the universe’s past, present, and future, and it would have always been in place, even before the character put it into motion. A paradox.
 
This thread was where the note got accepted.

It is more or based on Saikou's logic there regarding issues regarding celestial bodies:
Saikou_The_Lewd_King said:
Thing is that by stating to affect time itself in any way, you're implying that you affect all of time. Like saying that time stands still, you imply that, well, time as a whole is stopped, not that a tiny bit of time is stopped.

Plus, time stop on a local scale would eventually creatue irregularities with the sun and other celestial bodies, irregularities that aren't implied at all in most works. This is especially bad with long-term time stops.

Of course local time manip exists, but I don't like the idea of assuming it's the case for all time stops.
Click to expand...

The issues of time stopping with celestial bodies would be major; I could still see the merit of the arguments.
I would be fine with a similar note to the time manipulation page.
 
Elizhaa said:
This thread was where the note got accepted.

It is more or based on Saikou's logic there regarding issues regarding celestial bodies:


The issues of time stopping with celestial bodies would be major; I could still see the merit of the arguments.
I would be fine with a similar note to the time manipulation page.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the help elizhaa, that clears up alot.
 
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