Tier High 6-A The Battle of the Beast Tournament (2023): Monster King Orochi vs Monkey D Luffy

[DaMonkeMan]

Because you haven’t actually given an answer to most of my arguments
you also have a history of shitposting and being blatantly unwilling to look at character profiles in vs threads
If you want me to be quiet then where’s your argument you silly goose.
You’ve made incredible points like “he would just dodge it” in response to me explaining why he wouldn’t dodge it at all
you’ve provided no actual win condition for Luffy
and you’ve successfully shown everyone that you have no idea what you’re talking about and how precognition works. So no, I’m not going to be quiet tbh.

"Being blatantly unwilling to look at character profiles in vs threads"
You:
OROCHI IS STRONGER AND HAS DANMAKU [Luffy has dealt with Danmaku before, plus has great precog and passive empowerment]
OROCHI CAN KILL HIM WITH A BEAM [Probably valid, but Luffy isn't letting him charge up a beam to try and fry him]
OROCHI HAS TECHNIQUE MIMICRY AND ATTACK REFLECTION!! [So does Luffy to a certain extent, and he has been seen reflecting projectiles, swords and blunt objects like cannonballs.]

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Also orochi’s profile needs updating tbh, his stamina section, his intelligence section, and his LS needs to be calculated, and also he needs to have whirlwind iron cutting fist to his profile possibly

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean, Garou has some decent Analytical Prediction, which shouldn't be too far behind Luffy's precog

 

[Doggo]

Why is it every OPM thread becomes toxic? I'm fairly new here but that's a thing I noticed

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Why is it every OPM thread becomes toxic? I'm fairly new here but that's a thing I noticed

OPM is a series that seems to be focused on powerscaling. Thus the fandom is focused on it.
Just be glad you weren't here for Garou vs Luffy.. this is a bottle of bleach compared to Chernobyl.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

"Being blatantly unwilling to look at character profiles in vs threads"
You:
OROCHI IS STRONGER AND HAS DANMAKU [Luffy has dealt with Danmaku before, plus has great precog and passive empowerment]

Again, conveniently leaving out the fact that his danmaku consists of being surrounded by martial arts dragons which are all more skilled than him
there’s a difference between being surrounded by fireballs and being surrounded by fireball shooting martial artists with twice your skill

OROCHI CAN KILL HIM WITH A BEAM [Probably valid, but Luffy isn't letting him charge up a beam to try and fry him]

What’s he gonna do to stop him? Kill him? Bro has type 2 immortality and an AP advantage

OROCHI HAS TECHNIQUE MIMICRY AND ATTACK REFLECTION!! [So does Luffy to a certain extent, and he has been seen reflecting projectiles, swords and blunt objects like cannonballs.]

which doesn’t prevent his own attacks from being reflected anyways
if he directly attacks the danmaku of martial arts dragons he’s gonna die anyways so getting into an attack reflection battle against a horde of water stream rock smashing fist users isn’t gonna help his case

Why is it every OPM thread becomes toxic? I'm fairly new here but that's a thing I noticed

One punch vs One piece can’t end well

 

[Epiccheev]

OPM is a series that seems to be focused on powerscaling. Thus the fandom is focused on it.

I mean, Dragon Ball is that to a greater degree yet they very rarely get toxic. (outside of CRTS, at least.)

 

[LordGinSama]

Also, everyone please calm down, before heads start rolling into the RVT.

Remember this is a game and the results are pointless, no need to stress, get heated or be rude.

Nah man let's start the fight of the century here, our battle shall be legendary!

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean, Garou has some decent Analytical Prediction, which shouldn't be too far behind Luffy's precog

Your tripping if you think Garou's ass Analytical Prediction is even remotely comparable to Luffy's.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Okay so here’s the deal
We’re generous and say that luffy’s upscale makes him equal to orochi’s AP
The advantages orochi has are
Immortality
range
skill
basically an army of dragons (with immortality)
attack reflection
And also he might just charge up Gaia cannon and destroy luffy because luffy can’t really stop him

vs Luffy who just has the advantage of being able to predict when he’s gonna get his ass beat with his precognition

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Also someone explain the specifics of Luffy’s precognition, exactly how does it work

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Read the rest of the thread and his profile dog.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Read the rest of the thread and his profile dog.

I actually have read the rest of the thread, and I did attempt to read the profile but I saw like like 18 paragraphs on the Haki page and just gave up
but if you’re not knowledgeable enough to answer then I guess I’ll just try and find the precog stuff myself

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I actually have read the rest of the thread, and I did attempt to read the profile but I saw like like 18 paragraphs on the Haki page and just gave up
but if you’re not knowledgeable enough to answer then I guess I’ll just try and find the precog stuff myself

I'm not spoonfeeding you lol.

 

[LordGinSama]

So now skill = being able to negate the usage of temporal precognition despite that never being shown in OPM.



Skill doesn't allow you to counter abilities that are significantly more potent than anything you've ever faced before. If Garou could see into the future like Luffy then Orochi would have never struck Garou once. Skill has to be the most wanked subject on the wiki at this point, not to mention Orochi doesn't even scale to Garou's better skill feats which happen afterwards.


Luffy doesn't even need to bypass his immortality, he has the option to outlast here and given that he has the better stamina of the two being able to fight for days and being able to restore his stamina.



Also I wanna see Orochi attacking with hundreds of heads since he's literally never shown doing that? At best he attacks with dozens of heads, each of which get predicted accordingly.




Luffy has the range advantage, not Orochi so again that's an advantage Orochi just doesn't have.


Luffy's attack reflection >>> Orochi's.

Also someone explain the specifics of Luffy’s precognition, exactly how does it work

I got you.




It's basically a mix of like 3 forms of precognition that stack up on one another (Telepathy based precognition, Sensory based precognition and last but not least Temporal precognition.) dozens forms of enhanced senses, information Analysis up the ass.




Speaking of Luffy's precognition in particular, it's only ever been bypassed by insane speed amps from opponents with equal speed. This is due to the window that Luffy is consistently getting (Dozens to possible a few minutes.) from future sight. He looks into the future passively, said future vision otherwise needs a speed boost to counteract act. Kaidou needed his fastest attack to hit Luffy who was spamming this, and Luffy needed to use his best speed amp to start hitting Katakuri.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'm not spoonfeeding you lol.

Because you have no spoon or a meal to begin with, you’re actually just not cooking

 

[Mycroft_er]

Luffy FRA

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm not spoonfeeding you lol.

Personally speaking I would have since I think Ziller is genuinely confused on how Luffy's precognition works which would make sense if he doesn't keep up with OP.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Personally speaking I would have since I think Ziller is genuinely confused on how Luffy's precognition works which would make sense if he doesn't keep up with OP.

Fair but it IS on Luffy's profile.
This is one of the cases where google is your best friend.
Btw what are the votes?

 

[DemonicDude]

Fair but it IS on Luffy's profile.
This is one of the cases where google is your best friend.
Btw what are the votes?

Orochi: 7 (Recon, Zill, Kachon, Maitreya, Randomguy,Tatsumi, Adem69)
Luffy: 13 (TheMonkeMan, DD, KingTempest, Popted2, Epicchev, That_moron, LordGin, Eminit, Dogo, KochengPutih, V99, Aachintiya, Mycroft_er)
Incon 1 (Arnold)

 

[ZillertheBucko]

So now skill = being able to negate the usage of temporal precognition despite that never being shown in OPM.

It’s not that he can negate precog through skill, it’s the fact that he will see what’s coming but will have no way to actually stop it. The haki page notes the weakness that predicting the future doesn’t actually account for how the opponent’s actions will change to account for that changing of the future, so even if luffy predicts an attack and moves out of the way of where the attack was going to be, orochi is just going to adjust himself to beat the shit out of the luffy, which is a major weakness of the precognition. It’s not the same type of precog of king crimson where the future is completely unchangeable, which is a fatal weakness that makes it way easier to counter especially when you’re a godlike skill genius like orochi who’s not gonna just mindlessly throw out an attack.

Skill doesn't allow you to counter abilities that are significantly more potent than anything you've ever faced before. If Garou could see into the future like Luffy then Orochi would have never struck Garou once. Skill has to be the most wanked subject on the wiki at this point, not to mention Orochi doesn't even scale to Garou's better skill feats which happen afterwards.

actually skill does allow you to counter abilities that you haven’t faced before, since he has good adaptability (shown when he immediately adapts garou’s fighting style which took years of training for him to even get to that level)
Garou seeing into the future wouldn’t have made up for anything since he would still be overwhelmed by the insane amount of dragons (even ignoring the AP gap) with skill surpassing his own

Luffy doesn't even need to bypass his immortality, he has the option to outlast here and given that he has the better stamina of the two being able to fight for days and being able to restore his stamina.

Orochi’s stamina should be added to his profile but, he should logically have high superhuman stamina given that he was subjected to Psykos’ limiter breaking training of fighting through tons of near death experiences (like Garou but with even more stamina and willpower)

Also I wanna see Orochi attacking with hundreds of heads since he's literally never shown doing that? At best he attacks with dozens of heads, each of which get predicted accordingly.

It’s an exaggeration but the point is that luffy’s gonna be absolutely overwhelmed and even if he can predict what’s gonna be thrown at him he won’t actually be able to counter all of it no matter what’s happening

Luffy has the range advantage, not Orochi so again that's an advantage Orochi just doesn't have.

My ass forgot that luffy can strech himself

Luffy's attack reflection >>> Orochi's.

not sure how it works, I’ll check it later

It's basically a mix of like 3 forms of precognition that stack up on one another (Telepathy based precognition, Sensory based precognition and last but not least Temporal precognition.) dozens forms of enhanced senses, information Analysis up the ass.




Speaking of Luffy's precognition in particular, it's only ever been bypassed by insane speed amps from opponents with equal speed. This is due to the window that Luffy is consistently getting (Dozens to possible a few minutes.) from future sight. He looks into the future passively, said future vision otherwise needs a speed boost to counteract act. Kaidou needed his fastest attack to hit Luffy who was spamming this, and Luffy needed to use his best speed amp to start hitting Katakuri.

Alrighty then, see reasons above still

 

[LordGinSama]

It’s not that he can negate precog through skill, it’s the fact that he will see what’s coming but will have no way to actually stop it.

Which he can do by simply stepping outside of the effective range, such as stepping outside of Orochi's range and hitting him with ranged attacks instead, or a Soru speed amp. I'm not saying he'll avoid each one like It's M.U.I.


What I'm saying is that once he sees that (dozens of seconds in advance.) he'll stay out of Orochi's effective range, remember Luffy is the one who can attack from tens of Kilometers instead of Orochi's Kilometers. Another solution would be to use Soru, the speed amp he has.

The haki page notes the weakness that predicting the future doesn’t actually account for how the opponent’s actions will change to account for that changing of the future, so even if luffy predicts an attack and moves out of the way of where the attack was going to be, orochi is just going to adjust himself to beat the shit out of the luffy, which is a major weakness of the precognition.

Where are you reading that because I'm not seeing a weakness like that at all in the Haki page, but that's like completely false. First things first is that isn't even a weakness of Kenbunshoku Haki that's accepted here but I assume you dug that up from the OP wiki itself? Yeah I wouldn't suggest going there for information.




The closest example of that I can think of is whenever two Kenbunshoku Haki users clash with Precognition, whenever two users of future sight they can't really predict the future accordingly, the other time that's somewhat similar to that is Pudding tricking Luffy and Sanji, both of whom didn't even have the future sight yet.



Or maybe you mean the intermediate stage where someone do have future sight but its the one with a bunch of weaknesses, such as people getting "glimpses." of the future at random times.

It’s not the same type of precog of king crimson where the future is completely unchangeable, which is a fatal weakness that makes it way easier to counter especially when you’re a godlike skill genius like orochi who’s not gonna just mindlessly throw out an attack.

Actually Future Sight Kenbunshoku is 1 and 1 with King Crimson's Epitaph, the future they see is the actual future itself. The only way to counter this is by having future sight of your own to change how you'll act accordingly to the seen future.



Also that depends, Orochi's never faced an opponent like G5 who's like fighting the Great Value version of the mask. G5's thing is its sheer unpredictability, he's hard as **** to react to properly since instead of fighting like a normal person he's stated to "fight like something out of a cartoon strip!" so I think Orochi at some point is gonna have difficulty with that part in particular. G5 effects also cause confusion in the same cartoonish style, furthering the unpredictability.

actually skill does allow you to counter abilities that you haven’t faced before, since he has good adaptability (shown when he immediately adapts garou’s fighting style which took years of training for him to even get to that level)

To a certain degree definitely but also depends on what they're adapting to in particular. There's really nothing for Orochi to "adapt." here since Precognition isn't something that effects the opponent directly, also pretty sure Orochi would have no idea that Luffy is seeing the future.

Garou seeing into the future wouldn’t have made up for anything since he would still be overwhelmed by the insane amount of dragons (even ignoring the AP gap) with skill surpassing his own

Actually I'd argue that if Garou had future sight then nobody would touch him lol, that topped with his RE would definitely make that fight easier for him.

Orochi’s stamina should be added to his profile but, he should logically have high superhuman stamina given that he was subjected to Psykos’ limiter breaking training of fighting through tons of near death experiences (like Garou but with even more stamina and willpower)

Eh that's pain endurance, not how long he can go for fighting non stop.

It’s an exaggeration but the point is that luffy’s gonna be absolutely overwhelmed and even if he can predict what’s gonna be thrown at him he won’t actually be able to counter all of it no matter what’s happening

Ahhh okay gotcha, can't really ever tell if someone here is using exaggeration or not.



I'd have to disagree there, with a large window of time (dozens of seconds.) to react to things before they happen he should be more than capable of backstepping and staying out of Orochi's effective range.

My ass forgot that luffy can strech himself

It happens lol, done that myself a few times.

Alrighty then, see reasons above still

Ditto.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Giving my vote to Luffy FRA

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I think that is Grace.

 

[SnookB]

Orochi isn't touching Luffy at all because of FS.
Gear 5 can grow in size on a whim, so dura-neg with bigger limbs is on the table. Luffy probably transmutates Orochi to rubber and deflects Gaia cannon the way he did Boro Breath. Those are only a few things, but Orochi has generally no way to put Luffy down, not even the temperatures to fully drop him.

If Luffy by chance runs out he can just restart G5 for kicks and continues. Voting Luffy. He's way too haxed compared to Orochi, and might legitemately just grab Gaia Cannon and throw it back at him if he really wanted to

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Which he can do by simply stepping outside of the effective range, such as stepping outside of Orochi's range and hitting him with ranged attacks instead, or a Soru speed amp. I'm not saying he'll avoid each one like It's M.U.I.


What I'm saying is that once he sees that (dozens of seconds in advance.) he'll stay out of Orochi's effective range, remember Luffy is the one who can attack from tens of Kilometers instead of Orochi's Kilometers. Another solution would be to use Soru, the speed amp he has.

Where are you reading that because I'm not seeing a weakness like that at all in the Haki page, but that's like completely false. First things first is that isn't even a weakness of Kenbunshoku Haki that's accepted here but I assume you dug that up from the OP wiki itself? Yeah I wouldn't suggest going there for information.




The closest example of that I can think of is whenever two Kenbunshoku Haki users clash with Precognition, whenever two users of future sight they can't really predict the future accordingly, the other time that's somewhat similar to that is Pudding tricking Luffy and Sanji, both of whom didn't even have the future sight yet.



Or maybe you mean the intermediate stage where someone do have future sight but its the one with a bunch of weaknesses, such as people getting "glimpses." of the future at random times.

Actually Future Sight Kenbunshoku is 1 and 1 with King Crimson's Epitaph, the future they see is the actual future itself. The only way to counter this is by having future sight of your own to change how you'll act accordingly to the seen future.



Also that depends, Orochi's never faced an opponent like G5 who's like fighting the Great Value version of the mask. G5's thing is its sheer unpredictability, he's hard as **** to react to properly since instead of fighting like a normal person he's stated to "fight like something out of a cartoon strip!" so I think Orochi at some point is gonna have difficulty with that part in particular. G5 effects also cause confusion in the same cartoonish style, furthering the unpredictability.

To a certain degree definitely but also depends on what they're adapting to in particular. There's really nothing for Orochi to "adapt." here since Precognition isn't something that effects the opponent directly, also pretty sure Orochi would have no idea that Luffy is seeing the future.

Actually I'd argue that if Garou had future sight then nobody would touch him lol, that topped with his RE would definitely make that fight easier for him.

Eh that's pain endurance, not how long he can go for fighting non stop.

Ahhh okay gotcha, can't really ever tell if someone here is using exaggeration or not.



I'd have to disagree there, with a large window of time (dozens of seconds.) to react to things before they happen he should be more than capable of backstepping and staying out of Orochi's effective range.

It happens lol, done that myself a few times.

Ditto.

I can make a more full response later but, the main thing here is his precog
If it works like king crimson style precog then that means he can’t change the future right? If he can change the future, then wouldn’t that automatically mean that the opponent can change their future too when reacting to him? If that’s the case then Orochi changing his own future would be what happens next, no?

 

[LordGinSama]

If it works like king crimson style precog then that means he can’t change the future right?

One Piece is pretty weird since you can indirectly change the future by changing your own actions that you've made in the future but that only happens during a Kenbunshoku Haki battle.

Orochi would need to have Kenbunshoku Haki on Luffy's level to "change." the future. Basically it's like precoging precog, the one who can see further into the future is usually the one who can change the future but in most cases where they clash they stop using it.


Basically it's "I can see you reading the future with my own future sight so I'll be changing the attacks that I used that you've seen happen in the future."

 

[ZillertheBucko]

One Piece is pretty weird since you can indirectly change the future by changing your own actions that you've made in the future but that only happens during a Kenbunshoku Haki battle.

Orochi would need to have Kenbunshoku Haki on Luffy's level to "change." the future. Basically it's like precoging precog, the one who can see further into the future is usually the one who can change the future but in most cases where they clash they stop using it.


Basically it's "I can see you reading the future with my own future sight so I'll be changing the attacks that I used that you've seen happen in the future."

Wow that’s messy
Okay how about this
There’s a blue and red button, the blue button makes the tv screen blue and the red one makes the tv screen red
If luffy sees himself in the future pressing the red button and the tv is fated to turn red, what would happen if luffy presses the blue button and changes his own future (but the tv doesn’t have haki in this situation)
Would he press the blue button and the screen would turn red anyways, or would it react to the change in the future and turn blue

 

[LordGinSama]

Wow that’s messy

Very much so lmfao.

If luffy sees himself in the future pressing the red button and the tv is fated to turn red, what would happen if luffy presses the blue button and changes his own future (but the tv doesn’t have haki in this situation)

Then the future would change.


Basically if Orochi had a way to see into the future he'd be able to change the actions he's made in said future by looking at it before it happens. Like "Okay so this is where I ****** up so I'll do this to avoid X result from happening."

 

[ZillertheBucko]

So like if luffy predicted orochi blocking his kick and then he threw out a punch instead, would orochi be able to react to his punch?

 

[LordGinSama]

So like if luffy predicted orochi blocking his kick and then he threw out a punch instead, would orochi be able to react to his punch?

Yeah he can but the issue is that Luffy’s precognition is like always on and spams it as often as he can.


Kenbunshoku Haki is very broken unless you have a form of precognition that'll cancel it out.



To be clear without that precognition I'd vote for Orochi. Imo his best chance is actually his Gaia canon since it has way more AoE than his Horn and dragon tendril attack.

 

[ReusedOil]

Ayo so how far could luffy's precog get him exactly? As in, hypothetically speaking, how many of orochi's dragon heads should there be in the fight before one manages to hit luffy?

Like at what point is there just too many that despite seeing the future, luffy's stats can't catch up to actually react accordingly?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

In this case I’d argue that Luffy’s precognition would actually have a tough time getting around orochi’s skill then and they’d kinda conflict here
like luffy would see all of his next attacks but then orochi would also be able to quickly adapt until he found a way to trap luffy in a way that he couldn’t really dodge
Although the part about his precognition always being active means that he’d technically always know how orochi was going to react, but if the future is constantly changing then those predictions could become invalid rather quickly even if they are being replaced by new ones
like a less skilled opponent may throw a punch at luffy and then he dodged it, but someone like orochi would just take the opportunity to maybe react to that and try to catch him with a sweep or something like that, which would change the future if he hadn’t originally needed to do that
the point is that if orochi does have opportunities to change his former future in reaction to luffy predicting and countering his attacks then thanks to the dragon heads giving him a numbers advantage, he’d likely be able to overwhelm luffy with a situation that he can’t really escape just due to the sheer skill and danmaku of orochi, along with attack reflection severely limiting the amount of counter options luffy would have to his melee attacks, so I still say Orochi comes out on top through the sheer factor of him not really being able to outmanuver all the dragons with his precognitions changing. Although I can say that this makes for a really well choreographed fight in my brain.

This is the part where I’d say that orochi could technically use his underground mobility to catch luffy off guard but if he’s spamming precog as you say then sneak attacks are really off the table.

If orochi has access to whirlwind iron cutting fist from copying Garou though then he would basically be able to one shot luffy with it, but I’m gonna have to possibly make a crt for it.

 

[LordGinSama]

I definitely disagree with some of what ya said there and I obviously disagree with the outcome but I can see where your coming from within the same token.



My vote still stays with Luffy ultimately but I do respect your opinion here. You've got some points here and there but personally speaking I think Luffy wins more often than not here.

 

[ReusedOil]

Ayo so how far could luffy's precog get him exactly? As in, hypothetically speaking, how many of orochi's dragon heads should there be in the fight before one manages to hit luffy?

Like at what point is there just too many that despite seeing the future, luffy's stats can't catch up to actually react accordingly?

Just tryna get a more concrete number of luffy's capabilities, seeing as how the finer details seem a bit vague with one side pointing out the level of danmaku and the other simply stating "precog" and leaving it at that

 

[Tatsumi504]

And Luffy isn't gonna let him charge up a huge beam to evaporate him with so ******* stop with that okay?

Can y'all make up your effing minds for once?

First gin says with precognition he can avoid getting surrounded by the dura neg, attack reflection danmaku by staying away, which i agree with btw, now your saying he would willingly dive into that insane amount of attacks to stop gaia canon? Well here's some information for you...He's not gonna be able to stop the canon cause he still has to deal with the other dragons. He can't play keep away and get close at the same time with speed equal

I swear this battle is as stupid as the time y'all were saying luffy can dodge tatsumaki' country wide telekinesis with precognition...pure insanity.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Can y'all make up your effing minds for once?

First gin says with precognition he can avoid getting surrounded by the dura neg, attack reflection danmaku by staying away, which i agree with btw, now your saying he would willingly dive into that insane amount of attacks to stop gaia canon? Well here's some information for you...He's not gonna be able to stop the canon cause he still has to deal with the other dragons. He can't play keep away and get close at the same time with speed equal

I swear this battle is as stupid as the time y'all were saying luffy can dodge tatsumaki' country wide telekinesis with precognition...pure insanity.

Oh brother.
It's like this guy doesn't know what Attack Reflection is.

 

[Popted2]

now that i think about it, would Luffy be able to use the other dragons to turn them into rubber and making them reflect the Gaia Cannon?

 

[SnookB]

So like if luffy predicted orochi blocking his kick and then he threw out a punch instead, would orochi be able to react to his punch?

Luffy's precog even when weaker (basic kenbunshoku vs katakuri's full on future sight) was precoging Katakuri's actual future sight and negating it by taking an action that changes Katakuri's future outcome.
It was a precog-off pretty much. He can see the future, change it with a different action and create a different future even against other future sight users.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

This is one of the things Orochi would be able to do against Luffy predicting and avoiding his attacks btw. And this is orochi when he’s holding back massively while fighting Garou anyways, so things would be even harder for Luffy with him using all of his horns.