Tier 9-B Enter the Octagon Tournament: Nijun vs Deathstroke

[DemonicDude]

Semi Final 2:

Rules:

• Same Rules as stated in the Tournament.
• Speed Equalized
• Distance: Fighting distance for every matchup will be 6 meters.
• Location: The Octagon UFC Ring. Exit it and you lose.

Results:
Nijun:
Deathstroke: 2 (Pikea, DD)
Inconclusive:

DontTalkDT vs Brutelho

 

[RandomGuy2345]

This one will be interesting.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If this version of Slade is anything like the Teen Titans one, I think this will be the first match Nijun's trick prevention ability really shines.
I bet Slade, with his clever plans and all, will get himself frozen a few times which would result in free hits for Nijun that could win him the match.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

How is Nijun going to overcome that AP gap?

Deathstroke has 3.1x AP advantage.

 

[Pikaman]

Yes, Nijun is an incredibly skilled foe, but not completely out of reach of someone like Deathstroke, and his amps can only get him so far. Deathstroke also seems to have more variety in his options thanks to his vast equipment, and Deathstroke also holds advantages in LS and Intelligence. Ultimately, Deathstroke can probably overwhelm Nijun before he gets the ball rolling by applying his amps and whatnot, and even if he does get them off he only lessens some of his disadvantages.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Btw, looking at this version of Deathstroke (Slade Wilson), I don't think he uses trick methods like the Teen Titans version would do.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Going off of this:

"Slade Wilson has a very complicated personality. He is a trustworthy and honorable man who operates under a strict code of ethics, yet his sense of morality is flawed. Slade is a man who believes in using deadly force, and at times has acted as judge, jury, and executioner for those he deems without honor or worth."

I don't think this version of Deathstroke uses trick methods.

 

[Pikaman]

If this version of Slade is anything like the Teen Titans one, I think this will be the first match Nijun's trick prevention ability really shines.
I bet Slade, with his clever plans and all, will get himself frozen a few times which would result in free hits for Nijun that could win him the match.

I watched a few of Deathstroke’s fights and he seems a surprisingly forward fighter, there’s not really room in this small arena for his usual stealth based tactics, and he doesn’t seem to utilise feints or the likes very often, if at all

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Though, those speed amps will be a challenge for Deathstroke.

 

[Pikaman]

It’s very possible he can overwhelm Nijun before the amps even get applied though, and he holds enough advantages that a disadvantage in speed is hardly the end of the world

 

[DontTalkDT]

It’s very possible he can overwhelm Nijun before the amps even get applied though, and he holds enough advantages that a disadvantage in speed is hardly the end of the world

The speed advantages can really be applied more or less immediately.

I watched a few of Deathstroke’s fights and he seems a surprisingly forward fighter, there’s not really room in this small arena for his usual stealth based tactics, and he doesn’t seem to utilise feints or the likes very often, if at all

Y'know, if you don't even employ basic feints I have a doubt you really are close to above real life (and above superhuman) martial arts skill.
It just seems like a basic thing you need in all martial arts above some level in order to prevent your opponent from reading you like an open book.

 

[Pikaman]

The speed advantages can really be applied more or less immediately.

Theoretically yes but is it really in Nijun’s character to instant amp against someone he doesn’t know the prowess of yet? Especially given there are consequences to using them

 

[Pikaman]

Y'know, if you don't even employ basic feints I have a doubt you really are close to above real life (and above superhuman) martial arts skill.
It just seems like a basic thing you need in all martial arts above some level in order to prevent your opponent from reading you like an open book.

You know what I mean, he’s not a backhanded fighter and he’s smart enough to figure out the paralysis and prevent it after maybe one or two hits max

 

[DontTalkDT]

Theoretically yes but is it really in Nijun’s character to instant amp against someone he doesn’t know the prowess of yet? Especially given there are consequences to using them

As I said in earlier matches the 'consequences' are really not that great. People with lesser durability could run 50km with them and still be in pretty much top condition to fight.

We haven't seen many fights of him. But by all precedence we have Nijun immediately uses the boosts.

You know what I mean, he’s not a backhanded fighter and he’s smart enough to figure out the paralysis and prevent it after maybe one or two hits max

I wanna say that basically any hidden objective counts as a feint. For example:

As she spoke, Nijun swayed in the corner of Sayama’s vision.

The old man was about to vanish so he could wait in the battlefield he would share with Sayama.

“…!”

Sayama immediately began to move.

He took an instantaneous step that flowed into a right roundhouse kick.

It was a demonstration for the opponent and a feint meant to keep the man from escaping.

If the man was not planning to fight now, it meant he was not prepared.

That meant Sayama could not let him escape. The suddenness and the distance between them precluded a clean hit, but the feint of a kick was the first step to reach one.

“…!?”

However, Sayama both saw and realized that his own body would not move in the slightest.

…What?

Confusion filled his motionless body.

Even as a feint, he had poured all his strength into the kick, but his body remained in the defensive stance from before.

He could not move.

…What is this?

“That is Nijun’s concept. Sayama, he might just be the worst possible opponent for you.”

A moment later, he pulled a red sphere from his suit pocket.

—Only truth fills the world.

Only two sets of gunfire sounded. The center man was unable to fire his warning shot.

“!?”

He looked down at his unmoving fingers.

Basically, it goes beyond just being backhanded. It forces you to fight in a very straight forward way. I don't think one should underestimate that.
Here some more:

Seeing a chance, he threw an open-hand jab toward Sayama’s back.

Sayama twisted in midair and avoided it.

To respond, the boy prepared to throw his left fist.

In that instant, Nijun activated his fixed concept.

—Only truth remains.

Sayama’s left arm stopped.



Sayama had thrown his left arm to prepare for his real attack, but it stopped.

He had not stopped it himself and it had not hit anything.

The motion had simply stopped.

“What?”

“It is simple, Sayama-sama. My concept prevents the creation of any and all lies.”

Sayama flipped around as he flew and attempted to correct his position.

However, Nijun caught up to him, so he tried to swing his body leftward and away.

“…”

He could not move, but Nijun laughed as if that motionless was perfectly normal.

“Ha ha. You cannot make any feints in this world. All fakes, tricks, and deceptions are made impossible! …This should be a fatal blow to your favorite tactics.”

Nijun threw his fist and Sayama guarded.

And a few clean hits early on can mean a lot, given how damage diminishes the fighting capability for the rest of the fight.

 

[Pikaman]

And a few clean hits early on can mean a lot, given how damage diminishes the fighting capability for the rest of the fight.

Yes but with that AP disadvantage those free hits will not account for much, even allowing for amps

 

[RandomGuy2345]

So Deathstroke will just have to fight a straightforward fight then, which is literally what he does in character.

Though, while Nijun for sure has the skill advantage, I don't think it's a skill stomp, and Deathstroke has an over 3x AP advantage, so a good hit from Deathstroke will definitely do something to Nijun.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I also forgot to mention that Nijun will also be faster thanks to speed amps, so that will also be an issue for Deathstroke (assuming it doesn't end up being a speed blitz).

 

[Pikaman]

Also, you’ve literally shown in your attached quotes that opponents can begin moving the moment they stop being untruthful, i.e. guarding/blocking Nijun’s apparent “free hit”

 

[Pikaman]

assuming it doesn't end up being a speed blitz).

If Nijun could speed blitz with his amps it would’ve been banned, so it’s safe to conclude that’s not the case

 

[Pikaman]

Nijun’s skill causes issues, as does his speed, but I’m not really seeing how it negates disadvantages in intelligence, AP, LS, and Variety/Equipment. Even his concept doesn’t seem nearly as damning as DT is hyping it up as, as not only does it not guarantee a “free hit” at all, but Deathstroke is by a decent bit a good enough tactician to deduce and prevent the cause of it. I’ll vote Deathstroke High-Mid diff for now

 

[DemonicDude]

Darthstroke FRA for now

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I'll hold off on voting for now.

Debating DT is scary because you'll never know what he'll pull out.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yes but with that AP disadvantage those free hits will not account for much, even allowing for amps

Will they kill? No.
But this isn't like a 7.5x difference. From a good, well aimed, punch, and with Nijun's skill we can assume it will be that, there will still be some relevant damage.
Slade won't be incapacitated, but it will be enough damage to lower his performance. Be it from a torn muscle or a broken rip.

Also, you’ve literally shown in your attached quotes that opponents can begin moving the moment they stop being untruthful, i.e. guarding/blocking Nijun’s apparent “free hit”

They can, but do you think freezing briefly in the middle of a high-speed fight against a speed-wise superior opponent goes by without getting hit?
Sayama could speed wise keep up due to special circumstances (and mitigate the strikes due to being mid-air). Slade doesn't have those advantages.
For Deathstroke, briefly freezing in the middle of a fist fight is a free hit for Nijun, because Nijun is faster. There is no way for Slade to recover before getting hit against a faster more skilled opponent.

Nijun’s skill causes issues, as does his speed, but I’m not really seeing how it negates disadvantages in intelligence, AP, LS, and Variety/Equipment. Even his concept doesn’t seem nearly as damning as DT is hyping it up as, as not only does it not guarantee a “free hit” at all, but Deathstroke is by a decent bit a good enough tactician to deduce and prevent the cause of it. I’ll vote Deathstroke High-Mid diff for now

Intelligence is hardly an advantage. Nijun's concept prevents Slade from using it in any way. In fact, being smart and coming up with plans works against Slade. Being so smart is basically a detriment for him here.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Intelligence is hardly an advantage. Nijun's concept prevents Slade from using it in any way. In fact, being smart and coming up with plans works against Slade. Being so smart is basically a detriment for him here.

If Slade is going to think of plan, it can't be something that has to do with feinting Nijun, or else it'll backfire.

Saying Nijun's Concept almost completely nullifies Slade's intel here is exaggerating.

Plus, this Slade doesn't even use feint tactics in character. He's a straightforward fighter.

 

[Pikaman]

Will they kill? No.
But this isn't like a 7.5x difference. From a good, well aimed, punch, and with Nijun's skill we can assume it will be that, there will still be some relevant damage.
Slade won't be incapacitated, but it will be enough damage to lower his performance. Be it from a torn muscle or a broken rip.

If you want to argue torn muscles and broken bones from Nijun’s hits, who holds an AP disadvantage of over 3x, then how much damage is Deathstroke doing?

They can, but do you think freezing briefly in the middle of a high-speed fight against a speed-wise superior opponent goes by without getting hit?
Sayama could speed wise keep up due to special circumstances (and mitigate the strikes due to being mid-air). Slade doesn't have those advantages.
For Deathstroke, briefly freezing in the middle of a fist fight is a free hit for Nijun, because Nijun is faster. There is no way for Slade to recover before getting hit against a faster more skilled opponent.

What were the “special circumstances?” Also, Nijun seems to have an issue, how do I put it, monologuing when his opponent freezes the first time? Deathstroke will be able to quickly adapt when he realises something isn’t working, you’re downplaying his skill as a fighter here

Intelligence is hardly an advantage. Nijun's concept prevents Slade from using it in any way. In fact, being smart and coming up with plans works against Slade. Being so smart is basically a detriment for him here.

Intelligence is an important factor in any vs match, it decides strategy, adaptiveness, etc.

To argue that Slade is not able to come up with strategies of any complexity because they would trigger Nijun’s concept is a ridiculous exaggeration with no basis, you cannot argue that Slade’s intelligence works against him here, it is an excellent asset to him and will allow him to adapt quickly, and adjust based on the weaknesses he shows, he should be able to deduce soon enough how Nijun’s concept works, and from there he can avoid triggering it at all (not to mention he would barely trigger it normally anyways), and allows him to think on his feat better.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If Slade is going to think of plan, it can't be something that has to do with feinting Nijun, or else it'll backfire.

Saying Nijun's Concept almost completely nullifies Slade's intel here is exaggerating.

Plus, this Slade doesn't even use feint tactics in character. He's a straightforward fighter.

Thing is, as shown in the quotes above, "attack the opponent to prevent them from leaving" is already a feint as far as Nijun's concept is concerned. That's how basic it gets.
Pretty sure any plan involving Slade doing anything with hidden intent would count as a feint. Given the scenario, are there plans Slade can do that don't have a hidden intention in some step? I can't think of any.

 

[Pikaman]

Oh, and for a bit of a role reversal to Jericho v Tsukasa, now it’s ME who gets to argue about how Slade has a sword and Nijun doesn’t lol, the difference here is that Slade carries a Katana, a much more practical weapon than Nijun’s double blade, so he can make better use of this advantage when compared to Tsukasa

 

[Pikaman]

Thing is, as shown in the quotes above, "attack the opponent to prevent them from leaving" is already a feint as far as Nijun's concept is concerned. That's how basic it gets.

You’re making it sound very simplistic but what you’re describing is attempting to attack someone with their back turned to you, no kidding that counts as deception, that’s not particularly “basic”, nor is it a scenario that could be replicated in these circumstances, also, you don’t wanna argue that in a low hax martial arts based tournament that you entered a character that can paralyse any type of offensive plans or martial arts manoeuvres, that would’ve never been accepted and you know it

 

[DontTalkDT]

Oh, and for a bit of a role reversal to Jericho v Tsukasa, now it’s ME who gets to argue about how Slade has a sword and Nijun doesn’t lol, the difference here is that Slade carries a Katana, a much more practical weapon than Nijun’s double blade, so he can make better use of this advantage when compared to Tsukasa

Difference is that Nijun, with his martial art superior to all human martial arts, knows how to fight a sword.
In fact, the four brothers also know how to use swords themselves, so he can possibly steal one.

You’re making it sound very simplistic but what you’re describing is attempting to attack someone with their back turned to you, no kidding that counts as deception, that’s not particularly “basic”, nor is it a scenario that could be replicated in these circumstances, also, you don’t wanna argue that in a low hax martial arts based tournament that you entered a character that can paralyse any type of offensive plans or martial arts manoeuvres, that would’ve never been accepted and you know it

Nijun's back wasn't turned to Sayama, so your assumption on that is wrong.
And yes, I do actually want to argue that. Well, kinda. It's not like you can't use martial arts. You can still throw basic punches and kicks and everything. You can still fight. It's just that plans as such are restricted.

 

[Pikaman]

And yes, I do actually want to argue that

You don’t because if you do you’re essentially arguing a power null of any kind of complex martial arts (beyond “basic punches and kicks” by your own word) in a martial arts tournament... can you see how this is a problem in terms of legitimacy?

Nijun's back wasn't turned to Sayama, so your assumption on that is wrong

well then what do you mean by “attempting to leave?” And again, this isn’t a situation that couldn’t possibly apply here, since leaving the arena is a loss

 

[RandomGuy2345]

And yes, I do actually want to argue that. Well, kinda. It's not like you can't use martial arts. You can still throw basic punches and kicks and everything. You can still fight. It's just that plans as such are restricted.

So you're telling me that you have to fight in the most basic way possible in order to stand a chance?

You can't strategize whatsoever?

The whole "strategy" is basically saying "**** it" and just be as basic as possible?

 

[Pikaman]

It’s a broken ability in the context of the tournament if it is as DT is describing it, in a martial arts tournament a passive ability that heavily punishes opponents for using complex martial arts is too powerful. That’s my 2 cents, it forces a skills stomp every time

however I do have an inkling DT is hyping the ability a little beyond its actual capabilities here, and Slade ironically has enough stat advantages to maybe overcome this even then.

 

[Pikaman]

So you're telling me that you have to fight in the most basic way possible in order to stand a chance?

If this is true, then considering Nijun skill stomped Bálor, an incredibly skilled wrestler, not too long ago in this very tournament, he would just skill stomp everyone

shocker the concept Manipulation was indeed broken

 

[Pikaman]

But seriously, how did we go through a selection process and two matches before this came to light?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

But seriously, how did we go through a selection process and two matches before this came to light?

DT's Social Influencing is OP asf

 

[DivineAura44]

DT's Social Influencing is OP asf

Oh yeah, ignore that section where he can completely negate skill.

 

[Pikaman]

Yeah a character that already skill stomps around 75% of this tournament having an ability that severely restricts skill...

 

[Pikaman]

After consultation with both @RandomGuy2345 and @DemonicDude, the decision has been taken to disqualify Nijun. There will now be a quarter-final match between Leorio and Finn Bálor to decide who takes his place in the semi-finals against Slade, the thread for this match will be created shortly.

 

[Pikaman]

Finn Bálor vs Leorio has been created!