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This Saint Seiya CRT Was A Mistake Part 1....................

TheUnshakableOne

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The banshees screaming in my head made me do it......

Anyways reviving this and improving upon an older attempt that was tried earlier this year.

Without any further interruptions!

INTRODUCING

High 1-B+ Universe and the Primary argument Is.......

The FAQ page says

A spacetime continuum with two time axes, instead of just one, could likewise be visualized as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the entire regular timeline with 3 space and 1 time dimension. It would hence be one level of qualitative superiority above a timeline and as such baseline Low 1-C. Similarily, adding even more time dimensions would add one level of qualitative superiority each time.

Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist”

This passage in the FAQ equates temporal Dimensions as the same thing as a Time Axis/Axes. If there is any problem or issue with it, then the FAQ should be reworded to make this more abundantly clear.

Anyways, The Saint Seiya verse has a direct, explicit, and clearcut statement of multiple time axes, and quite possibly up to an uncountably infinite number of additional time axes, and that's what this CRT is going to explain.

The Primary Evidence


The past and future are explicitly stated to have their own independent, and stated to be different time axes. This isn't stated Just once but twice. This in of itself isn’t enough for High 1-B+. However, we have heavy implications of there being uncountably infinite future's in verse. This will be explain in the below spoilers boxes along with explanations that they do follow wiki policy in being legitimate and real temporal dimensions.




Proof that each Time Axis is actually Quantitative superiority, and Orthogonal.


Athena asked Chronos to send her to the past to change the future, but that isn't how time travel works in the series. What ended up happening is she was sent to a different temporal axis that ended up being a branch of the past. She was also told that time travel cannot change destiny, aka the future, meaning Seiya is doomed to die regardless of her actions to save him. Although, she was told not to change history within the same chapter; that statement makes no logical sense. Time traveling should logically save Seiya’s life, but Chronos admitted that it will not change his future/destiny.

What ended up happening is she cured it using her own power through the connection within the flower bracelets.

Additionally, to clear up all, or any, confusion. The loss of memory is because of Apollo altering peoples memories not due to the timeline being fixed (because it never got fixed.) The whole statement of "everything will go back to its original state" is because Athena distorted the natural order of the universe.

In other words, Chronos telling her not to change history must mean some other context unrelated to time travel, otherwise her goal would be simple which in the context of the story; it has not been that simple. Thus, the whole idea of time traveling to time paradox hades sword out of existence has been entirely ditched by Kurumada.

Additionally, in Saint Seiya: Episode G Assassins, it was made evident that the "past" is definite, and cannot be undone. For example, Shura went to the past to kill Aiolios, of the Lost World. However, this had no impact on the GA/GR timeline. If it did, the sequel story of the GA timeline wouldn't happen (GR.) Shura for GR would also be time paradoxed out of existence, but that didn’t happen. The reason is because Aiolos of the Lost World played a significant role as he invaded other timelines in an attempt to merge his timeline with others. These events are an important and integral key component that leads into the events of Saint Seiya: Requiem. In addition, the changes would also affect Shura himself who became heavily influenced and reliant on his experiences that occurred during the Episode G Assassins events, but there were no changes to him or anyone else. To further support this Saga, who was turned into an owl because of the events that happened in Episode G Assassins, also remained unaffected.

Another example is Avenir from Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas Gaidens, and Kairos. Avenir was rescued by Chronos, and sent to the past, but that didn't change his own branch's history. Additionally, Karios was not a part of Avenirs branch. Kairos was an anomaly in the Saint Seiya: Lost Canvas branch. The reason Avenir was moved from his branch into the branch of Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas was strictly because of Kairos. Thus, time travel to change the past history, or past events, of a Universe is not something that exists within the Saint Seiya universe.

Uncountably infinite Explanation



The future is fluid in that it's both a dynamic continuum and a static continuum, as the future is built upon the arrangement and movement of atoms (wind/air and water movement), human actions, and even natural rhythms (Heartbeats). The universe is stated to be infinite, containing an infinite amount of stars; and thus each atom is in constant motion and continually rearranging as all things are motion, as stated by Buddha. This logically means there is an uncountably infinite number of interactions and influences that create an uncountably infinite number of points/coordinates. This is due to there being an infinite number actions that each individual atom, and naturally occurring rhythms in the universe (including atomic movements), can take at each point/coordinate in time. This creates an uncountably infinite amount of temporal axes.

Each point represents a unique configuration of the universe at a given moment. Due to the infinite amount of matter in the universe, and the continuous movement and interactions of atoms, this creates endless possibilities for how the future can unfold, which there is infinite of. This means that every moment in time is a distinct, non-repeatable event, contributing to the vast tapestry that makes up existence. The infinite branching of future possibilities results from the cumulative effects of countless micro and macro events, all interwoven to form the complex structure of time as depicted in Saint Seiya.

Everything in the universe is existing at/on some coordinate in space and time (infinite coordinates per thing/object [most particularly Stars, and Atoms]) the infinitely many existing things individually (by themselves [for example an individual atom]) are creating infinite branches in time per coordinate in 3D space and infinitely more branches per coordinate in/on the temporal axis these individually infinitely existing things exist on.

Scans are provided in the first explanation.

Verified to be Uncountably Infinite

https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/97714/

https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/97711/



Conclusion

The Future is a different/separate additional Time axis and there are is an uncountably infinite number of futures all are stated to be their own independent time axis that is “different from one another.''

Thus, the Universe in Saint Seiya should be High 1-B+ because of an uncountably infinite number of temporal dimensions.

Who scales to this?

The Big Bang and anyone who scales to it.


Debunking some common arguments against this

“Are the Time Axes Intertwined and connected?”
Yes, in fact it's directly stated 2 times for us. We have very direct statements.





“Time axes that transcend one another are higher dimensional, perpendicular ones are just another timeline/Can you prove they are orthogonal?/Can you prove quantitative superiority?.”

This is a terrible misunderstanding of the FAQ page. Yes, a perpendicular one can suggest an alternate timeline, however the time line being perpendicular is the result of Higher Time Axes which by default is taking a new direction. A causes B here, The new direction of time (The higher Time Axis) taking a perpendicular direction which has perpendicular timelines along its axis points implies the existence of a Higher Temporal dimension/axis. This is a consequence of having a Higher Time Axis/dimensions.

“You can’t just say Infinite Time Axes and simply get High 1-B”

The FAQ page explicitly says that a direct statement is all that you need. There is no requirement for proving that it has the qualities, properties, and nature of true higher temporal dimension. If this is an issue then there needs to be a Staff only thread created to get this reworded, and then it should be mentioned somewhere that proving, even in the face of a direct statement of multiple temporal dimensions/Axes, that they have the qualities, properties, and nature a higher temporal dimension would have.

AD_4nXdMM6ixryfG1EgDGFSLMS3L5pcr1higi1I57sN2kUtofojrTKtykJn8fw9tKJ7GYDPH7R3CY6qrc8JHxZ4rXbQE7-Y4khyuzSgW_n0b1hZRRKur-LXhml-7meRrqxahwCS2zmwjsGCz2rJWYYyHMs_AbXI


“Does the Higher Time Axis contain a lesser time axis?”

This means nothing in proving if it is Orthogonal, or if it is not. You can have a 2-C Universe holding other Low 2-C universes with this same logic due to subsets. Instead, you need a direct statement that they have their own time axis/temporal dimension, or prove the universes have the qualities, properties, or nature to have their own time axis.

Regardless, this means nothing to this CRT as its about a direct statement. It has nothing to do with “Universes inside of Universes”

“Being different doesn’t mean they are separate time axes”

I went back, and did some reading on the Staff Thread titled “Re:Evulation of Temporal Dimension standards” and the word “Different Time Axes” was used synonymously with “Separate Time Axes.” The OP of the thread also used the wording “Different Time Axis” instead of “Separate.”


Plack69 used the term “Different”

The OP of the thread also equated “Different” and “Separate” as the same thing here.

Qawsedf234 also used the term “Different” instead of “Separate”

In total the word “Different Temporal” was used a total of 23 times on the staff crt. There was absolutely 0 clarification or discussion on the difference, and nuances on something being “Different” and “Separate” and 0 clarification and elaboration on why Time Axis and Temporal Dimensions are different concepts.

If there are any differences, then the FAQ should be carefully reworded and changed to show that distinction.


“The entire future itself is an Axis.”

In Chapter 19 of Saint Seiya Next Dimension, the depiction of the past and future as "Nebulas/Galaxies" hints at a clear separation between them. For reference, these Nebulas are stated to be different “past” and “Futures” as to quote Chronos, he tells Athena “If you so much as put a foot in another nebula you will find yourself in a different past or future.” This is heavily implying the nebulas are Separated Time Axes. Although initially suggested visually and showing gappage as a metaphorical artistic sense of separation. This portrayal gains significance when much later in the series about 60+ Chapters later, it is explicitly stated that the past and future are indeed "Different time axes.” Additionally, the statement that the futures are "Fragmented" further reinforces this sense of separation.


EDITED: New evidence different temporal directions
the Future progresses up and down not just forward or backwards.

Every “present moment” Has infinite snap shots. As the one of the lead and integral characters in Saint Seiya GA/GR known as Shura is traveling through time and moving into those infinite presents. Which are infinitely repeating events that are the same all existing as branched timelines in the same moment in time.

These pieces of evidence further suggest that all time Axes have different temporal directions







Arguments Aganist the OP
Astral_Trinity439
Had a counter proposal of 5D/Low 1-C due to uncountably infinite timelines

PrinceofPein
https://vsbattles.com/threads/this-saint-seiya-crt-was-a-mistake-part-1.175436/post-6905828 only sees branching timelines

Arguments for the OP

TheUnshakeableOne
 
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Hm, I mean, it seems to fit with how Higher D power is specifically needed to access other universes
 
I feel bits and pieces of this are over my head tbh.
Putting it very simply as I can

Everything in the universe is existing at/on some coordinate in space and time (infinite coordinates per thing/object because the universeis stated to be infinite [most particularly Stars, and Atoms becauseof a statement of infinite stars in the universe]) the infinitely many existing things individually (by themselves [for example an individual atom]) are creating infinite branches per coordinate they exist on/at/ in for the 3D space aspect and then creating infinitely more branches per coordinate in/on the temporal axis these individually infinitely existing things exist on/in/at including as thet move through the 3D space and along a temporal axis. This creates uncountably infinite number of futures.


Verified to be Uncountably Infinite

https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/97714/


Then we have a statement that all futures are explicitly stated to be different time axes. (Implying separation (aka not all futures are apart of the same temporal axis) (and thus suggesting all futures are their own time axis)

Thus you end up with uncountably infinite # of temporal dimensions.

======================

Then I put in a section explaining why these time axis(es) are higher temporal dimensions incase a statement isn't enough

Basically time traveling and messing up causality anywhere on/in the tree doesn't effect the "whole tree" or "any branches or trunks" to support the notion of Higher Temporal dimensions

Also, they are uncountably infinitely greater. (Same explanation for that is in first half of this response, but the my mucho texto abive has a more detailed explanation)
 
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Yeah no, heavily disagree.

The idea of orthogonal time axes is being misinterpreted here a lot. Before I get into discussion, know that most of my answers will be based off of this thread
The past and future are explicitly stated to have their own independent, and stated to be different time axes. This isn't stated Just once but twice. This in of itself isn’t enough for High 1-B+. However, we have heavy implications of there being uncountably infinite future's in verse. This will be explain in the below spoilers boxes along with explanations that they do follow wiki policy in being legitimate and real temporal dimensions.
Yeah, this much is fine, each branched Timeline having a different time axis is not a unique thing, however.
A Time Axis refers to a time dimension, obviously, each timeline has its own time dimension different from another, but what matters is how it is different, in what matter; Whether its different in the direction it extends to, or the events each timeline has.

The first one is indeed applicable for +1 Dimensionality if the different directions are orthogonal, but the latter, not so much, evidentially seen in the thread I linked, where timelines having different time axis and unique events did not lead to them being treated as orthogonal.
Athena asked Chronos to send her to the past to change the future, but that isn't how time travel works in the series. What ended up happening is she was sent to a different temporal axis that ended up being a branch of the past. She was also told that time travel cannot change destiny, aka the future, meaning Seiya is doomed to die regardless of her actions to save him. Although, she was told not to change history within the same chapter; that statement makes no logical sense. Time traveling should logically save Seiya’s life, but Chronos admitted that it will not change his future/destiny.
This is not a property of only orthogonal axis; All Space-times/timelines by default have their own past, present and future. So obviously, travelling in the past of one timeline will not change the future in another timeline.

In fact, if the future of another timeline is changed due to travel in timeline, that is actually what is treated as supporting evidence for orthogonal axis, as that implies that the timelines are branched and that the other timeline is imbedded in the original timeline. But that is evidentially not the case here.
Not sure what this is supposed to signify, other then the one sending the flower chain having multi-timeline range, but that is unrelated to this topic of orthogonality.
Additionally, to clear up all, or any, confusion. The loss of memory is because of Apollo altering peoples memories not due to the timeline being fixed (because it never got fixed.) The whole statement of "everything will go back to its original state" is because Athena distorted the natural order of the universe.
Nothing special here either.
In other words, Chronos telling her not to change history must mean some other context unrelated to time travel, otherwise her goal would be simple which in the context of the story; it has not been that simple. Thus, the whole idea of time traveling to time paradox hades sword out of existence has been entirely ditched by Kurumada.
I'm not sure why you are bringing time paradoxes here, because the presence or absence time paradoxes does not give the time axes orthogonality over one another. The presence of time paradoxes means one is within the same timeline, and their absence indicates the existence of different timelines in some cases, but in no such case does it indicate orthogonality.
Additionally, in Saint Seiya: Episode G Assassins, it was made evident that the "past" is definite, and cannot be undone. For example, Shura went to the past to kill Aiolios, of the Lost World. However, this had no impact on the GA/GR timeline. If it did, the sequel story of the GA timeline wouldn't happen (GR.) Shura for GR would also be time paradoxed out of existence, but that didn’t happen. The reason is because Aiolos of the Lost World played a significant role as he invaded other timelines in an attempt to merge his timeline with others. These events are an important and integral key component that leads into the events of Saint Seiya: Requiem. In addition, the changes would also affect Shura himself who became heavily influenced and reliant on his experiences that occurred during the Episode G Assassins events, but there were no changes to him or anyone else. To further support this Saga, who was turned into an owl because of the events that happened in Episode G Assassins, also remained unaffected.
Same as what I said above, nothing related to orthogonality here either.
Another example is Avenir from Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas Gaidens, and Kairos. Avenir was rescued by Chronos, and sent to the past, but that didn't change his own branch's history. Additionally, Karios was not a part of Avenirs branch. Kairos was an anomaly in the Saint Seiya: Lost Canvas branch. The reason Avenir was moved from his branch into the branch of Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas was strictly because of Kairos. Thus, time travel to change the past history, or past events, of a Universe is not something that exists within the Saint Seiya universe.
Same as above; it just indicates branching timelines, not perpendicular time axes.
Quoting one of the most knowledgeable staff when it comes to orthogonality, aka Qawsedf:
So there you go; Just because each branch timeline is stated to have its own distinct future and is stated to have different time axes does not make them orthogonal.
The future is fluid in that it's both a dynamic continuum and a static continuum, as the future is built upon the arrangement and movement of atoms (wind/air and water movement), human actions, and even natural rhythms (Heartbeats). The universe is stated to be infinite, containing an infinite amount of stars; and thus each atom is in constant motion and continually rearranging as all things are motion, as stated by Buddha. This logically means there is an uncountably infinite number of interactions and influences that create an uncountably infinite number of points/coordinates. This is due to there being an infinite number actions that each individual atom, and naturally occurring rhythms in the universe (including atomic movements), can take at each point/coordinate in time. This creates an uncountably infinite amount of temporal axes.
This does indicate the act of timelines branching at every instance/snapshot of time, which leads to the presence of an uncountably infinite amount of timelines as even a single space-time has an uncountably infinite amount of instances, just as how a line has an uncountably infinite amount of points on it.

I am fine with this being treated as low 1-C for that reason.
I went back, and did some reading on the Staff Thread titled “Re:Evulation of Temporal Dimension standards” and the word “Different Time Axes” was used synonymously with “Separate Time Axes.” The OP of the thread also used the wording “Different Time Axis” instead of “Separate.”


Plack69 used the term “Different”

The OP of the thread also equated “Different” and “Separate” as the same thing here.

Qawsedf234 also used the term “Different” instead of “Separate”

In total the word “Different Temporal” was used a total of 23 times on the staff crt. There was absolutely 0 clarification or discussion on the difference, and nuances on something being “Different” and “Separate” and 0 clarification and elaboration on why Time Axis and Temporal Dimensions are different concepts.

If there are any differences, then the FAQ should be carefully reworded and changed to show that distinction.
That is just nitpicking on words at that point; No, the staff mentioning those terms also had the basic premise of They have different directions, so they are different axes, not the other way around. Two lines/axes can be different while not being orthogonal, such as any parallel set of lines or non-parallel but not perpendicular set of lines.

Conclusion:
I am fine with the branching timeline stuff being treated as 5-D/low 1-C due to its amount, but heavily disagree with anything above that.
 
Yeah no, heavily disagree.

The idea of orthogonal time axes is being misinterpreted here a lot. Before I get into discussion, know that most of my answers will be based off of this thread

Yeah, this much is fine, each branched Timeline having a different time axis is not a unique thing, however.
A Time Axis refers to a time dimension, obviously, each timeline has its own time dimension different from another, but what matters is how it is different, in what matter; Whether its different in the direction it extends to, or the events each timeline has.

The first one is indeed applicable for +1 Dimensionality if the different directions are orthogonal, but the latter, not so much, evidentially seen in the thread I linked, where timelines having different time axis and unique events did not lead to them being treated as orthogonal.

This is not a property of only orthogonal axis; All Space-times/timelines by default have their own past, present and future. So obviously, travelling in the past of one timeline will not change the future in another timeline.

In fact, if the future of another timeline is changed due to travel in timeline, that is actually what is treated as supporting evidence for orthogonal axis, as that implies that the timelines are branched and that the other timeline is imbedded in the original timeline. But that is evidentially not the case here.

Not sure what this is supposed to signify, other then the one sending the flower chain having multi-timeline range, but that is unrelated to this topic of orthogonality.

Nothing special here either.

I'm not sure why you are bringing time paradoxes here, because the presence or absence time paradoxes does not give the time axes orthogonality over one another. The presence of time paradoxes means one is within the same timeline, and their absence indicates the existence of different timelines in some cases, but in no such case does it indicate orthogonality.

Same as what I said above, nothing related to orthogonality here either.

Same as above; it just indicates branching timelines, not perpendicular time axes.
Quoting one of the most knowledgeable staff when it comes to orthogonality, aka Qawsedf:


So there you go; Just because each branch timeline is stated to have its own distinct future and is stated to have different time axes does not make them orthogonal.

This does indicate the act of timelines branching at every instance/snapshot of time, which leads to the presence of an uncountably infinite amount of timelines as even a single space-time has an uncountably infinite amount of instances, just as how a line has an uncountably infinite amount of points on it.

I am fine with this being treated as low 1-C for that reason.

That is just nitpicking on words at that point; No, the staff mentioning those terms also had the basic premise of They have different directions, so they are different axes, not the other way around. Two lines/axes can be different while not being orthogonal, such as any parallel set of lines or non-parallel but not perpendicular set of lines.

Conclusion:
I am fine with the branching timeline stuff being treated as 5-D/low 1-C due to its amount, but heavily disagree with anything above that.
I will reply back in like 12 to 16 hours if I get off work at a reasonable time
 
The argument of this thread should be changed, with the information provided here it would be very, but true, quite easy to get low 1C, but nothing really indicates that each axis is perpendicular to the previous one. As a fan of the SS series, I think you get low 1C first. Therefore, I disagree with H1B, but if you switch to low 1C I am in complete agreement.
 
The argument of this thread should be changed, with the information provided here it would be very, but true, quite easy to get low 1C, but nothing really indicates that each axis is perpendicular to the previous one. As a fan of the SS series, I think you get low 1C first. Therefore, I disagree with H1B, but if you switch to low 1C I am in complete agreement.
I have more information and counter arguments to share later
 
I have more information and counter arguments to share later
If so, in my view, you should close this because honestly it's not going to come to anything regarding H1B, keeping it would simply be dragging out the inevitable, a rejection. Other than that, I can see the universe in SS possessing its own past present and future, and apparently each point in the past, present and future has its own time axis, said twice in the series. So, given that a timeline has an infinitely countless number of points in time, where, in the case of SS, each point would be its own time axis, that would already be Low 1C.
 
If so, in my view, you should close this because honestly it's not going to come to anything regarding H1B, keeping it would simply be dragging out the inevitable, a rejection. Other than that, I can see the universe in SS possessing its own past present and future, and apparently each point in the past, present and future has its own time axis, said twice in the series. So, given that a timeline has an infinitely countless number of points in time, where, in the case of SS, each point would be its own time axis, that would already be Low 1C.
I’m kinda new to this Vs battle stuff but I think we should give her a chance to speak instead of being so quick to close this thread.
 
Yeah no, heavily disagree.

The idea of orthogonal time axes is being misinterpreted here a lot. Before I get into discussion, know that most of my answers will be based off of this thread

Yeah, this much is fine, each branched Timeline having a different time axis is not a unique thing, however.
A Time Axis refers to a time dimension, obviously, each timeline has its own time dimension different from another, but what matters is how it is different, in what matter; Whether its different in the direction it extends to, or the events each timeline has.

The first one is indeed applicable for +1 Dimensionality if the different directions are orthogonal, but the latter, not so much, evidentially seen in the thread I linked, where timelines having different time axis and unique events did not lead to them being treated as orthogonal.

This is not a property of only orthogonal axis; All Space-times/timelines by default have their own past, present and future. So obviously, travelling in the past of one timeline will not change the future in another timeline.

In fact, if the future of another timeline is changed due to travel in timeline, that is actually what is treated as supporting evidence for orthogonal axis, as that implies that the timelines are branched and that the other timeline is imbedded in the original timeline. But that is evidentially not the case here.

Not sure what this is supposed to signify, other then the one sending the flower chain having multi-timeline range, but that is unrelated to this topic of orthogonality.

Nothing special here either.

I'm not sure why you are bringing time paradoxes here, because the presence or absence time paradoxes does not give the time axes orthogonality over one another. The presence of time paradoxes means one is within the same timeline, and their absence indicates the existence of different timelines in some cases, but in no such case does it indicate orthogonality.

Same as what I said above, nothing related to orthogonality here either.

Same as above; it just indicates branching timelines, not perpendicular time axes.
Quoting one of the most knowledgeable staff when it comes to orthogonality, aka Qawsedf:


So there you go; Just because each branch timeline is stated to have its own distinct future and is stated to have different time axes does not make them orthogonal.

This does indicate the act of timelines branching at every instance/snapshot of time, which leads to the presence of an uncountably infinite amount of timelines as even a single space-time has an uncountably infinite amount of instances, just as how a line has an uncountably infinite amount of points on it.

I am fine with this being treated as low 1-C for that reason.

That is just nitpicking on words at that point; No, the staff mentioning those terms also had the basic premise of They have different directions, so they are different axes, not the other way around. Two lines/axes can be different while not being orthogonal, such as any parallel set of lines or non-parallel but not perpendicular set of lines.

Conclusion:
I am fine with the branching timeline stuff being treated as 5-D/low 1-C due to its amount, but heavily disagree with anything above that.
The first one is indeed applicable for +1 Dimensionality if the different directions are orthogonal

I'D like to ask if your agreeing to the idea that their maybe 1 additional temporal dimension from the statement provided In what you quoted. Your answer here is kind of confusing to me if you mean spatial or temporal.

This is not a property of only orthogonal axis; All Space-times/timelines


As to quote another staff comment

If you mean if every universe has their own temporal axis then the overall space-time continuum would be High 1-B.





In fact, if the future of another timeline is changed due to travel in timeline, that is actually what is treated as supporting evidence for orthogonal axis, as that implies that the timelines are branched and that the other timeline is imbedded in the original timeline.

From my research, that doesn't appear to be the case. Though it is possible I misunderstood your point here but to quote some staff that I think addresses this


For branching timeline it depends on whether they are destroyed due to causality or directly. Like, if you destroy the past, before the timelines branch out, and they disappear because that's how time works (i.e. you time paradox them) that is 3-A or Low 2-C.



The fact that stuff in that other timestream can effect the main one however, would imply that they share the same temporal axis. Which discounts a hypertimeline.



=============


Not sure what this is supposed to signify, other then the one sending the flower chain having multi-timeline range, but that is unrelated to this topic of orthogonality.



Nothing special here either.




I'm not sure why you are bringing time paradoxes here, because the presence or absence time paradoxes does not give the time axes orthogonality over one another. The presence of time paradoxes means one is within the same timeline, and their absence indicates the existence of different timelines in some cases, but in no such case does it indicate orthogonality.



Same as what I said above, nothing related to orthogonality here either.



Same as above; it just indicates branching timelines, not perpendicular time axes.
Quoting one of the most knowledgeable staff when it comes to orthogonality, aka Qawsedf:

These are related to each other so ill address them all here

First I'll quote Some relevant staff comments



For branching timeline it depends on whether they are destroyed due to causality or directly. Like, if you destroy the past, before the timelines branch out, and they disappear because that's how time works (i.e. you time paradox them) that is 3-A or Low 2-C.



Yes. If all timelines are existing in the same space as seperate streams without being created through branches, or showing that the ceasing of time in one timeline doesn't stop time in another, that would be an example of a hyper timeline.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/hypertimeline-low-1-c-question.163577/post-6324444


The fact that stuff in that other timestream can effect the main one however, would imply that they share the same temporal axis. Which discounts a hypertimeline.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-super-and-hypertimeline.162864/post-6284206

Because time can start in end while time still progresses in a greater sense. Which from what I got with DT would imply a greater temporal axis.


https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-super-and-hypertimeline.162864/post-6284156


With the idea being that since the timelines can start and end while a greater temporal progression is present (destruction of time in anyone or even all 12 of the Macrocosoms would still fails to halt time), would indicate that a higher temporal axis is needed to regulate everything.




Showcase that if one timeline is erased another timeline is unaffected


Now to explain The relevancy

From my understanding of these staff comments, time traveling to the past and messing up causality there in the past should have ramifications on the future. When you return the future should be changed. That's a normal time stream.

A non-normal time stream is you go to the past, you mess up causality and events there. Then you return and…. your original historyis still preserved without any ramifications. That's indicative of a Higher axis.

That's what this Evidence is there to prove. that If you go mess with the entirety of time anywhere on the tree of time. That manipulation will not effect any where else on the tree if time. (Messing with/manipulation being likd time paradoxes, changing the future, destroying it erasure, time travel, it will not affect anything on the tree of time the truck or branches.)

different time axes does not make them orthogonal.

this Sounds like an issue with the FAQ page because according to the FAQ page a direct Statement doesn't require proving any special nature's or properties.

This does indicate the act of timelines branching at every instance/snapshot of time, which leads to the presence of an uncountably infinite amount of timelines as even a single space-time has an uncountably infinite amount of instances, just as how a line has an uncountably infinite amount of points on it.

I am fine with this being treated as low 1-C for that reason.

This is Evidence Of uncountably infinite points in temporal dimensions for clarity


That is just nitpicking on words at that point; No, the staff mentioning those terms also had the basic premise of They have different directions, so they are different axes, not the other way around. Two lines/axes can be different while not being orthogonal, such as any parallel set of lines or non-parallel but not perpendicular set of lines.

If you need me to provide proof of different direction of time I got a couple

First it's pretty simple the Future progresses up and down not just forward or backwards.

Second, to further reinforce yet another direction in time. Every “present” Has infinite snap shots. As the one of the lead and integral characters in Saint Seiya GA/GR Shura is traveling through time and moving into those infinite presents. This provides an additional direction of movement of another Temporal dimension

Third you then have the explanation explained before of uncountably infinite temporal points.


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I'll edit the OP when I have time. Busy holiday season 😢




Also will admit it is possible that there is misunderstanding of things going in here. I've tried my best to research inti it but it's a pretty complex and complicated topic so its possible i got things wrong or misunderstood staff lol

Edit: going to bed it's like 3 am abd got work in 4 hours lol
 
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First off, sorry for the late replies, I was kinda busy with my own CRTs 🙏
I'D like to ask if your agreeing to the idea that their maybe 1 additional temporal dimension from the statement provided In what you quoted. Your answer here is kind of confusing to me if you mean spatial or temporal.
I do not agree to a higher perpendicular temporal dimension, my reason for agreement to low 1-C is because the amount of timelines being generated is uncountably infinite, which requires a low 1-C space to contain.
As to quote another staff comment
I was the one who made that thread, and it seems you missed the context from the very thread op that was included as an integral part of the question
Seperate time branches mean nothing. It's about a different temporal direction. You can have a Multiverse of High 1-B universes still operating off of a single Axis.

If you mean if every universe has their own temporal axis then the overall space-time continuum would be High 1-B.
Just something being stated to have a different time axis is not enough, it needs to show that a different axis is referring to a different dimension, which is not the default assumption.
And I would rather you look at the newer comments from the staff rather than the older ones, because as Qawsedf said here:
For context, the verse being evaluated had statements like each timeline having its own temporal axis, you can check the entire context here, but still did not qualify as it did not show different temporal directions.
From my research, that doesn't appear to be the case. Though it is possible I misunderstood your point here but to quote some staff that I think addresses this
It is more so per what the staff said here:
Me:
That is, since Timelines are successive to each other and in a "Loop", where one timeline is created only after the previous one ends, Chloe or Velgryd can travel between those timelines only by going over the hypertimeline which decides the "past" and "future" in a higher notion, aka, what was before Timeline B[that would be timeline A], or what would be after timeline B ends[that would be timeline C]. Or as Ciel explains it, they were sent to "beyond Time",
Staff:
This might give you a 5D rating, but only of the snap shots are previous multiverse states rather than a continous line.
And from the FAQ:
Of particular consideration are instances in which timelines as a whole are changed, such that there is a timeline (or multiple timelines) before they were changed and after they were changed or created / destroyed. As the timelines as a whole are changed, the before and after in this context can't be the past and future the timelines usually use, but should be a separate direction.
One other pitfall to consider is the case of branching timelines, where one can return to a past with fewer timelines by just going back to a point in the regular past that was before the split happened. In such cases one has to decide based on context if that is meant or if a prior version where the splits also didn't exist in the regular future is meant. The former case doesn't qualify for an additional time dimension, while the latter might if it meets the other outlined criteria.
Basically, if there a timeIine is created/destroyed/branched, and the character can traveI back in time to a point where they have not yet been destroyed/created/branched, then that indicates a higher temporal dimension.
For branching timeline it depends on whether they are destroyed due to causality or directly. Like, if you destroy the past, before the timelines branch out, and they disappear because that's how time works (i.e. you time paradox them) that is 3-A or Low 2-C.
This is more so whether TimeIines destruction is Iow 2-C or 2-C/2-B/2-A, which is not reaIIy reIevant here. I hope I am not misunderstood, but I have no problem with each timeline being its own low 2-C thing.
The fact that stuff in that other timestream can effect the main one however, would imply that they share the same temporal axis. Which discounts a hypertimeline.
Yeah, but that is not really a case being discussed in this thread. Though, if you are thinking that if a verse has not shown this but still qualifies for hypertimelines even if the proof is also not shown, then you are wrong.
We determine its tiers by Whether it has shown those feats, and not if it has not shown those anti-feats.
For branching timeline it depends on whether they are destroyed due to causality or directly. Like, if you destroy the past, before the timelines branch out, and they disappear because that's how time works (i.e. you time paradox them) that is 3-A or Low 2-C.
Already answered this
Yes. If all timelines are existing in the same space as seperate streams without being created through branches, or showing that the ceasing of time in one timeline doesn't stop time in another, that would be an example of a hyper timeline.
This more so needs proof that, lets say there are timelines A and B, that if eternity passes in Timeline B and it is destroyed, but timeline A is not destroyed and eternity has not passed in it, then both have different orthogonal directions. However, I do not see proof of that in this thread.
The fact that stuff in that other timestream can effect the main one however, would imply that they share the same temporal axis. Which discounts a hypertimeline.
Already addressed this
With the idea being that since the timelines can start and end while a greater temporal progression is present (destruction of time in anyone or even all 12 of the Macrocosoms would still fails to halt time), would indicate that a higher temporal axis is needed to regulate everything.
Showcase that if one timeline is erased another timeline is unaffected
That depends case by case; If its about timelines existing in the same space or imbedded inside each other. If it is the first assumption, that is nothing special, but if its the second assumption, that is indeed something, though it by itself may not necessarily be enough.

However, in case of Saint Seiya, from the scans I have seen, it is clear that the timelines are not stacked/imbedded inside each other, they exist as branched.

Though, if it is something like all of the uncountably infinite branched timelines being destroyed but time still flowing, and someone being able to travel before they were destroyed, it would be enough to warrant a single additional temporal dimension, but again, nothing more than that.
Now to explain The relevancy

From my understanding of these staff comments, time traveling to the past and messing up causality there in the past should have ramifications on the future. When you return the future should be changed. That's a normal time stream.
This much is correct, yes, unless the verse has a mechanism to prevent paradoxes.
A non-normal time stream is you go to the past, you mess up causality and events there. Then you return and…. your original historyis still preserved without any ramifications. That's indicative of a Higher axis.
That's what this Evidence is there to prove. that If you go mess with the entirety of time anywhere on the tree of time. That manipulation will not effect any where else on the tree if time. (Messing with/manipulation being likd time paradoxes, changing the future, destroying it erasure, time travel, it will not affect anything on the tree of time the truck or branches.)
No....? I do not see any staff you commented indicating something even near that....

Especially since if when you travel to the past but its the past of another timeline, and you change something there, get back to your original timeline and nothing changed, that is rather an intrinsic property of all different space-times that are causally isolated from each other.

Even for any normal 2-C set of Space-Time Continuums A, B, C, ..., Z, if you are from space-time A, you go to the past but its the past of space-time B, you change something there, and you come back and turns out nothing changed in A... that is really just an intrinsic space-time property, not orthogonality.
this Sounds like an issue with the FAQ page because according to the FAQ page a direct Statement doesn't require proving any special nature's or properties.
The FAQ is kept as simple and summarized as possible, it does not elaborate on every possible qualification and disqualification. The staff posts I quoted saying statements like it having a different direction are needed and different time axis by themselves are not enough, proves my point.

Also, while not directly, the FAQ does clarify my points:
Outside of explanations which state that multiple time dimensions exist it is difficult to show that a fiction has more than one. The key point that has to be established is that there is a kind of time that flows in a different direction than the past or the future or any of the spatial directions.
So yeah, this is the key point, and needs to be established before hand.
This is Evidence Of uncountably infinite points in temporal dimensions for clarity
I know. Tho that is a default assumption tbh, we assume that all space-times can contain an eternity of the physical universe.
If you need me to provide proof of different direction of time I got a couple

First it's pretty simple the Future progresses up and down not just forward or backwards.
It needs to be proved that the normal flow of time is not up-down first, since there is no default assumption on if we consider the default as up-down or forward-backward, especially when both directions can even be confused as one in some cases.
Second, to further reinforce yet another direction in time. Every “present” Has infinite snap shots. As the one of the lead and integral characters in Saint Seiya GA/GR Shura is traveling through time and moving into those infinite presents. This provides an additional direction of movement of another Temporal dimension
The character says:
I can't stay in the same timeline for long
That indicates that the infinite presents here are just referring to infinite timelines, which in fact makes more sense since there is only one snapshot that can be present inside a single timeline, even a second before or after that is the past or the future, not the present. It seems like the guy travels to different timelines, and by doing so, he saves infinite timelines/presents.
Third you then have the explanation explained before of uncountably infinite temporal points.
That would not be something special, in fact, since every timeline by default is assumed to spawn snapshots uncountably infinitely. It just means each timeline is of that length when combined with the infinite presents scan.
Busy holiday season 😢
Same for me 😭
Also will admit it is possible that there is misunderstanding of things going in here. I've tried my best to research inti it but it's a pretty complex and complicated topic so its possible i got things wrong or misunderstood staff lol
Nothing to worry about, that's not something too uncommon, especially when it comes to tier 1 stuff.
Edit: going to bed it's like 3 am abd got work in 4 hours lol
RIP
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Might be a bit before I respond. Going to collect scans.

Might I have a couple questions if you don't mind me asking

First off, sorry for the late replies, I was kinda busy with my own CRTs 🙏

I do not agree to a higher perpendicular temporal dimension, my reason for agreement to low 1-C is because the amount of timelines being generated is uncountably infinite, which requires a low 1-C space to contain.

I was the one who made that thread, and it seems you missed the context from the very thread op that was included as an integral part of the question

Just something being stated to have a different time axis is not enough, it needs to show that a different axis is referring to a different dimension, which is not the default assumption.
And I would rather you look at the newer comments from the staff rather than the older ones, because as Qawsedf said here:

For context, the verse being evaluated had statements like each timeline having its own temporal axis, you can check the entire context here, but still did not qualify as it did not show different temporal directions.

It is more so per what the staff said here:

And from the FAQ:


Basically, if there a timeIine is created/destroyed/branched, and the character can traveI back in time to a point where they have not yet been destroyed/created/branched, then that indicates a higher temporal dimension.

This is more so whether TimeIines destruction is Iow 2-C or 2-C/2-B/2-A, which is not reaIIy reIevant here. I hope I am not misunderstood, but I have no problem with each timeline being its own low 2-C thing.

Yeah, but that is not really a case being discussed in this thread. Though, if you are thinking that if a verse has not shown this but still qualifies for hypertimelines even if the proof is also not shown, then you are wrong.
We determine its tiers by Whether it has shown those feats, and not if it has not shown those anti-feats.

Already answered this

This more so needs proof that, lets say there are timelines A and B, that if eternity passes in Timeline B and it is destroyed, but timeline A is not destroyed and eternity has not passed in it, then both have different orthogonal directions. However, I do not see proof of that in this thread.

Already addressed this


That depends case by case; If its about timelines existing in the same space or imbedded inside each other. If it is the first assumption, that is nothing special, but if its the second assumption, that is indeed something, though it by itself may not necessarily be enough.

However, in case of Saint Seiya, from the scans I have seen, it is clear that the timelines are not stacked/imbedded inside each other, they exist as branched.

Though, if it is something like all of the uncountably infinite branched timelines being destroyed but time still flowing, and someone being able to travel before they were destroyed, it would be enough to warrant a single additional temporal dimension, but again, nothing more than that.

This much is correct, yes, unless the verse has a mechanism to prevent paradoxes.

No....? I do not see any staff you commented indicating something even near that....

Especially since if when you travel to the past but its the past of another timeline, and you change something there, get back to your original timeline and nothing changed, that is rather an intrinsic property of all different space-times that are causally isolated from each other.

Even for any normal 2-C set of Space-Time Continuums A, B, C, ..., Z, if you are from space-time A, you go to the past but its the past of space-time B, you change something there, and you come back and turns out nothing changed in A... that is really just an intrinsic space-time property, not orthogonality.

The FAQ is kept as simple and summarized as possible, it does not elaborate on every possible qualification and disqualification. The staff posts I quoted saying statements like it having a different direction are needed and different time axis by themselves are not enough, proves my point.

Also, while not directly, the FAQ does clarify my points:

So yeah, this is the key point, and needs to be established before hand.

I know. Tho that is a default assumption tbh, we assume that all space-times can contain an eternity of the physical universe.

It needs to be proved that the normal flow of time is not up-down first, since there is no default assumption on if we consider the default as up-down or forward-backward, especially when both directions can even be confused as one in some cases.

The character says:

That indicates that the infinite presents here are just referring to infinite timelines, which in fact makes more sense since there is only one snapshot that can be present inside a single timeline, even a second before or after that is the past or the future, not the present. It seems like the guy travels to different timelines, and by doing so, he saves infinite timelines/presents.

That would not be something special, in fact, since every timeline by default is assumed to spawn snapshots uncountably infinitely. It just means each timeline is of that length when combined with the infinite presents scan.

Same for me 😭

Nothing to worry about, that's not something too uncommon, especially when it comes to tier 1 stuff.

RIP
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Take your time 🙏

Sure, no problem.
In a branching universe-multiverse type of cosmology-weirdness-thingy-muh-bob

Shouldn't uncountably infinite timelines be 6D? Because wouldn't it be uncountably infinite temporal points (+2D) and uncountably infinite spatial coordinates (+4D?)

Since both are uncountably infinite and the wiki treats both spatial and temporal dimensions as separate.
 
In a branching universe-multiverse type of cosmology-weirdness-thingy-muh-bob
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Shouldn't uncountably infinite timelines be 6D? Because wouldn't it be uncountably infinite temporal points (+2D) and uncountably infinite spatial coordinates (+4D?)

Since both are uncountably infinite and the wiki treats both spatial and temporal dimensions as separate.
Not necessarily, no. A timeline is collectively 4D, so uncountably infinite amount of them would be 5D.

Tho I think I know where you are getting from here, but no, their temporal dimension extends in the same direction, so there is no +2 temporal dimensions, and only an extra significant spatial dimension is needed.
 
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Not necessarily, no. A timeline is collectively 4D, so uncountably infinite amount of them would be 5D.

Tho I think I know where you are getting from here, but no, their temporal dimension extends in the same direction, so there is no +2 temporal dimensions, and only an extra significant spatial dimension is needed.
Isn't one of the alternative criterias, instead of proving alternative direction, is uncountably infinite beyond the previous temporal dimension?

Edit: quoting tgis part of the FAQ

A spacetime continuum with two time axes, instead of just one, could likewise be visualized as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the entire regular timeline with 3 space and 1 time dimension. It would hence be one uncountably infinite level above a timeline and as such baseline Low 1-C. Similarily, adding even more time dimensions would add one level of dimensional superiority each time.
 
Isn't one of the alternative criterias, instead of proving alternative direction, is uncountably infinite beyond the previous temporal dimension?
Yeah, but thats because for an uncountably infinite 4D things to exist, they must extend in an additional direction as the 4 dimensions of the normal 4D plane wont be enough to store them.
A spacetime continuum with two time axes, instead of just one, could likewise be visualized as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the entire regular timeline with 3 space and 1 time dimension. It would hence be one uncountably infinite level above a timeline and as such baseline Low 1-C. Similarily, adding even more time dimensions would add one level of dimensional superiority each time.
And this is exactly what an uncountably infinite amount of timelines are. Its just that the way they are presented is different, and the names are different, but the size is the same. A Hypertimline is essentially a set of uncountably infinite timelines, just that each timeline in this case is called a snapshot

I think what you are confusing it with is a Hyper Space-Time; Something like this.
 
Yeah, but thats because for an uncountably infinite 4D things to exist, they must extend in an additional direction as the 4 dimensions of the normal 4D plane wont be enough to store them.

And this is exactly what an uncountably infinite amount of timelines are. Its just that the way they are presented is different, and the names are different, but the size is the same. A Hypertimline is essentially a set of uncountably infinite timelines, just that each timeline in this case is called a snapshot

I think what you are confusing it with is a Hyper Space-Time; Something like this.
So what if all branching timelines are producing an uncountably infinite # of timelines? Is it all apart of the same uncountable infinity?

I ask this because the "infinite presents" I mentioned before are branching parallel timelines that have a progressing into the future

So wouldn't that make them all separate uncountably infinite timelines?
 
So what if all branching timelines are producing an uncountably infinite # of timelines? Is it all apart of the same uncountable infinity?
That Im not sure. While personally, I think its far higher then just 5D if even the uncountably infinite amount of branched timelines branch forward, but under vsbw standards, it is still 5-D, I think.
Yes, the standards regarding that need to be revamped, but eh, everyone is too lazy to deal with it since it involves math.
I ask this because the "infinite presents" I mentioned before are branching parallel timelines that have a progressing into the future

So wouldn't that make them all separate uncountably infinite timelines?
That is kinda not a default assumption, there must be statements that timelines branch even from those branching possibilities. Something like infinitely branching, infinitely repeatedly would be good.
Assuming I get nothing wrong in the calc, technically, outside our set standard for MWI, that kinda stuff requires High 1-B ratings when repeated branching are involved.
 
That Im not sure. While personally, I think its far higher then just 5D if even the uncountably infinite amount of branched timelines branch forward, but under vsbw standards, it is still 5-D, I think.
Yes, the standards regarding that need to be revamped, but eh, everyone is too lazy to deal with it since it involves math.

[/QUOTE]

Idk it's sort of like every timelines snapshot of their timeline creates infinite branches

That is kinda not a default assumption, there must be statements that timelines branch even from those branching possibilities. Something like infinitely branching, infinitely repeatedly would be good.
Assuming I get nothing wrong in the calc, technically, outside our set standard for MWI, that kinda stuff requires High 1-B ratings when repeated branching are involved.

Actually the series does have those statements. We'll not said in those ways but for example Lost Canvas is a separate history from Next Dimension/The OG, and lost Canvas is the ine that tells us timelines branch

Then we Saintia Sho which is directly connected to Next Dimension/The OG manga and it mentioned that it branches

Saint Seiya Time Oddessy has so far every timeline branching (weird xenoverse style series)

Where as the Episode G trilogy has branching parallel timelines.

Obviously, I paraphrased everything and simplified the explanations for time sake

Edit: forgot to mention this but LC actually has 3 timelines in involved

One being potentially Next Dimension/The OG (already briefly talked about it)

And then Avenirs timeline (whose was also described as branching but mire si implied when talks of "Junctures of the future) avenir came from the future into a past timeline

And then the Lost Canvas timeline

Edit #2: forgot this one but Saintia Sho also has a realm where a character can view the history of all universes.

Edit #3 Episode G trilogy introduces infinite possibilities and infinite possible futures which are shown to exist as timelines and not just be possibilities

And Dark Wing a newer series introduced so far that there is an infinite number of past timelines
 
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