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This is the true power of the descendants of Sparda (Devil May Cry)

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Just one more thing i want to add to Tony's comment here, the novel could actually be missing context like the others ones, since it's not new for us that DMC novels sometimes miss context in the english version and this statement is contradicted by what we see in the main canon of the franchise, so should be disregard here. In PoC, Dante go DT in the start of the fight against Nevan, which is likely becoming canon to the series, so is more proof that Dante don't have a problem transforming on his demon forms

Let's be honest here, the main character of the franchise not wanting to transform on one of the main gimmick of the series is a big fat dumb move to begin with it

Dante_Demon_Killah said:
You can't base your point for a upgrade in a author mistake when the author has the creative power there, we have only one fact there, which is Dante not using DT, and the series showed how he usually uses when he just feels he has to, as it is stated in...Deadly Fortune (?) his hatred for using it. But this shouldn't be that bad as, again, Dante Vs Urizen showed that even against Vergil (and knowing that) and being able to sense power level, that fool still tried to fight in base for hours without success, if that's the canon mindset, him not using at first against Chen is actually very consistent
Click to expand...
Dante did not fight for hours against Urizen, Before the Nightmare shows that the fight lasted seconds against him. Dante started using Ebony and Ivony, than did go to Rebellion, and then did transform in DT, and then he was one shotted by him and fall unconsciousness in the ground. And Nero reach on the throne room very shortly after that, which is showed on VOV.
 
Mister6ame6 said:
Just one more thing i want to add to Tony's comment here, the novel could actually be missing context like the others ones, since it's not new for us that DMC novels sometimes miss context in the english version and this statement is contradicted by what we see in the main canon of the franchise, so should be disregard here. In PoC, Dante go DT in the start of the fight against Nevan, which is likely becoming canon to the series, so is more proof that Dante don't have a problem transforming on his demon forms

Let's be honest here, the main character of the franchise not wanting to transform on one of the main gimmick of the series is a big fat dumb move to begin with it
Click to expand...
This, this exactly, Msiter nailed it on the head accurately. I'd like to extrapolate on this point. Unlike all other materials which give some prior info or buildup to DT before using it in some situation, DMC2 novel lacks this concept itself entirely. The damn novel never once gives any allusion to its existance.
Dante uses DT normally in any other media when he is overwhelmed, pushed to the limit in AP or hax.
In 2nd novel he pushes himself beyond his limits since thats the sole option he has, since the author does not even acknowledge DT as an alternative.
Its not a mistake for author, its a deliberate and purposely done to push Dante beyond his limits.

As for PoC, as good as a game it is and intriguing the plot is, character and dialogue writing wise its meh, I don't know what the damn reason is for Dante transforming to Nevan of all demons, who he stomped way back when he was weaker. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Dante did not fight for hours against Urizen, Before the Nightmare shows that the fight lasted seconds against him.
Click to expand...

Huh? I thought the time frame in the game was around 8 hours?


Let's avoid using anything related to PoC in the arguments, we don't even know if it will be canon when it officially comes out
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Huh? I thought the time frame in the game was around 8 hours?


Let's avoid using anything related to PoC in the arguments, we don't even know if it will be canon when it officially comes out
Click to expand...
Nah...he went DT instantly WAAAYYY before Nero came in the BotN novel. He fires some shots, takes Rebellion attacks the barrier, and goes DT instantly. Shoot, slice, DT, in that order instantly.
I'll post some scans here in the next post.


Agree, lets not bring PoC anywhere while its still in development.
 
Screenshot_20210530-195049_Drive.jpg

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And the scene with Dante and Urizen ends.
And Untill Nero arrives Dante keeps struggling and Urizen keeps toying with him.
 
Awww that's cute, he was still thinking about Patty.

So he went DT almost immediately against Urizen, huh? Good to know.

Now we still need the time frame between Dante reaching the Qliphoth and Nero doing the same.
 
Dante_Demon_Killah said:
Before anything gets accepted or rejected, I ask more time for me, as I'm busy with RL exams for now, but I still plan to answer people here
Click to expand...
No worries dude, give your exams good and we'll be waiting here.
Best wishes!
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Awww that's cute, he was still thinking about Patty.

So he went DT almost immediately against Urizen, huh? Good to know.

Now we still need the time frame between Dante reaching the Qliphoth and Nero doing the same.
Click to expand...
Helicopter brings Dante and Co. and V to Qlipoth, after they clear some opposition at some half hour mark V turns back and rides Heli to Fortuna to bring Nero , hour of travel here. Dante is clearing out lower lvls while the girls go ahead and get an ass beating for an hour .Another Hour to travel back by heli, and Dante arrives in throne room to fight. By the time Nero arrives near Urizen, 3 hrs over as told by Morrison who is counting time outside. Dante was struggling against Urizen for hour atleast based on this, DT at that.
Its the 2nd time that Dante transforms that Rebellion breaks, and 3rd time he transforms that Dante uses DSS and gets knocked out at last. Thats a rough reconstruction of events.
3 transformations in total, not 2 as we thought or the game shows.
Not contradictions though, more like incomplete, novel and game and manga are supposed to fit like jigsaw pieces to show complete picture.
I'll do a more accurate time measurement tomorrow, its sleep time now.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
No worries dude, give your exams good and we'll be waiting here.
Best wishes!

Helicopter brings Dante and Co. and V to Qlipoth, after they clear some opposition at some half hour mark V turns back and rides Heli to Fortuna to bring Nero , hour of travel here. Dante is clearing out lower lvls while the girls go ahead and get an ass beating for an hour .Another Hour to travel back by heli, and Dante arrives in throne room to fight. By the time Nero arrives near Urizen, 3 hrs over as told by Morrison who is counting time outside. Dante was struggling against Urizen for hour atleast based on this, DT at that.
Its the 2nd time that Dante transforms that Rebellion breaks, and 3rd time he transforms that Dante uses DSS and gets knocked out at last. Thats a rough reconstruction of events.
3 transformations in total, not 2 as we thought or the game shows.
Not contradictions though, more like incomplete, novel and game and manga are supposed to fit like jigsaw pieces to show complete picture.
I'll do a more accurate time measurement tomorrow, its sleep time now.
Click to expand...
So, Dante did was able to keep in DT for one hour at least? That's is actually a very interesting thing to know honestly.
 
Lore wise we don't have a time limit for DT and it basically runs on how much "demonic energy" he has which at this point could last weeks/months/years.

The part that I find interesting is Dante keeping up with Urizen for more than 1 hour while the Qliphot is pumping him with blood/power, the power boost wasn't instantaneous but fast enough to contend with an older Dante
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The part that I find interesting is Dante keeping up with Urizen for more than 1 hour while the Qliphot is pumping him with blood/power, the power boost wasn't instantaneous but fast enough to contend with an older Dante
Click to expand...
This is perfect explanation.
Dante when he enters the tree, tell V to stay behind when both sense Urizen's power. V takes advice and runs to Fortuna get Nero.
Which means even at that time Dante was confident in taking Urizen down.
By the time he reaches throne room, Urizen is stronger and somewhere around Dante's league of power. But he is invulnerable due to Yamato Barrier, by the time 1 hour passes
Urizen overshadows Dante by a mile due to blood absorption.
-Dante gets one shot,
-DT Dante gets one shot, Rebellion gets shattered.
-DT Dante with DSS gets one shot knocked out.
 
WOW with that, we can get a H U G E baseline, one hour of blood = enough to keep with DT Dante till one shot happens.
Well guys, DMC 5 Dante and vergil just got a big ass baseline upgrade.
 
EFÍTÉ said:
WOW with that, we can get a H U G E baseline, one hour of blood = enough to keep with DT Dante till one shot happens.
Well guys, DMC 5 Dante and vergil just got a big ass baseline upgrade.
Click to expand...
We already used the boost in power, now it is somewhat more quantifiable than before. Barely nothing changes
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
This is perfect explanation.
Dante when he enters the tree, tell V to stay behind when both sense Urizen's power. V takes advice and runs to Fortuna get Nero.
Which means even at that time Dante was confident in taking Urizen down.
By the time he reaches throne room, Urizen is stronger and somewhere around Dante's league of power. But he is invulnerable due to Yamato Barrier, by the time 1 hour passes
Urizen overshadows Dante by a mile due to blood absorption.
-Dante gets one shot,
-DT Dante gets one shot, Rebellion gets shattered.
-DT Dante with DSS gets one shot knocked out.
Click to expand...
I believe V already say Urizen is stronger than Dante before the fight happen, but still impressive about him to take 3 hours of fighting or Urizen literally playing with him this time.
 
Thehunter077 said:
I believe V already say Urizen is stronger than Dante before the fight happen, but still impressive about him to take 3 hours of fighting or Urizen literally playing with him this time.
Click to expand...
Yes he does say something along those lines. And says that Nero will add extra negligible fraction to the chances due to Sparda Blood even without arms.
But the thing is, neither does V know fully the limits of Dante's power. He can only see whats on surface. Dante himself was confident when they separated. Its just that Urizen turned out too strong too fast.
 
I have being kind of busy today so I reply to some things and reply more later.

 
All who are 2C which inculdes Anime Dante and Abigail also scale to Mundus who has a FTL space travel feat.
So they are solid FTL there. They should be changed to reflect that if not done already.

Elizhaa said:
I have being kind of busy today so I reply to some things and reply more later.
Click to expand...
No hurry take your time.
 
 
I mean it's not absolutely necessary for mods to be involved in every crt so it should be fine to apply if the majority agrees
 
  1. Multiple Selves (All Types) for V and (Type 2) for Nero: (Since Vergil used Yamato to separate his half human part from his demon part and to separate power from heart, can also change people's memories and give them a physical form, and some of their abilities is confirmed to be manifestations of their souls, like Vergil's Mirage Edge swords and Nero's Devil Trigger)
    1. I am neutral on V's case since the other familiar basically like him coming from Vergil. Is there more evidence that they shared the same body his familiar don't share the same body? Mirage Edge swords seem to just manifestations of the soul powers, not Multiple Selves. I am cool with Nero from his Devil Trigger having the ability.
  2. Air Manipulation for DMC3 Vergil (Can manipulate the air to make his opponents slower)
    1. Honestly, this point looks more relate to Vergil's Spatial Manipulation which is already on the profile.
  3. Higher-Dimensional Manipulation or Non Physical Interaction for DMC2 Dante (Was capable to interact, and eventually kill Alternative Mundus, which fused himself and become the source and the nexus of all the Demon World Energy in the Alternative Timeline)
    1. It feels like Non-Physical Interaction.
  4. Energy Absorption for DMC2 Dante (With Beryl's Anti-Tank Rifle, which can absorb and destroy magic)
    1. It is already there on the page as stated by Oliver. The scan can be added though.
  5. On the reactive evolution and accelerated development, I mostly agree with Dante Demon Killah's points that some things are just resistance like those from the devil triggers. I will to comments more on these points later.
  6. Change the Sealing and BFR for DMC1 Dante for this one, since this one have better justifications for the feat: (Enhanced BFR and Enhanced Power Nullification via Enhanced Sealing for DMC1 Dante (Was capable of sealing Mundus away, this ability also sends the target to the Demon World and remove their powers and Dante's sealing powers is stated to be above Sparda himself)
    1. I agree with Dante Demon Killah's points; as he said, the last scan is from Belial who from DMC 4 so the part would be on Dante's DMC 4's key.
  7. Enhanced Soul Manipulation, BFR, Power Absorption, Forced Healing, Sealing, Information Analysis, Duplication and Power Mimicry (Unaffected by Maphas's stones, which she also can use for traps, the stones from Malphas's body can steal the cores of V's summons and lock than away and also traps V in a pocket dimension, which can take away his demonic/magic powers and can also heal him, the stones can also recreate Goliath, Cavaliere Angelo and Artemis out of V's memory and Nero was also unaffected by the stones on Malpha's body when he fought against her)
    1. I am neutral on this point for now since PIS and CIS could be counterpoints, for now. Though, I could at least see a case for possibility.
  8. Space-Time Manipulation and Time Stop via Law Manipulation for DMC5 Nero (Is capable of bending the laws of space and time with the Ragtime and is also stated to stop his foes in place)
    1. On your points, Dante Demon Killah, it depends on the context of the statements.
    2. The statement seems like Option 2 from Nicoletta Goldstein, who is an expert on the matters of weapons, and looks uncontradicted so it is fine with me, unless someone brings good counterpoints.
  9. Paralysis Inducement for DMC3 Vergil (Can paralyze his opponents with his summoned swords)
    1. It seems more like Vergil pins down the enemy with a sword rather than paralyze it.
  10. The other stuffs are fine, to me.
 
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Elizhaa said:
I am neutral on V's case since the other familiar basically like him coming from Vergil. Is there more evidence that they shared the same body his familiar don't share the same body? Mirage Edge swords seem to just manifestations of the soul powers, not Multiple Selves.
Click to expand...
The familiars physical bodies exist on V as tattoos. Souls as part of his own souls. And they can even talk inside his mind telepathically.
I even discussed this on the thread dedicated for this.
Elizhaa said:
Honestly, this point looks more relate to Vergil's Spatial Manipulation which is already on the profile.
Click to expand...
The issue is that it slows down the enemy on contact.
Elizhaa said:
On the reactive evolution and accelerated development, I mostly agree with Dante Demon Killah's points that some things are just resistance like those from the devil triggers. I will to comments more on these points later.
Click to expand...
There are feats of Reactive Evolution even when there is no DT. Same for Accelerated Development. 100% done in base.
Specifically the novel ones.
The Blood Manipulation feat from Sin for example, shows that resistance remains even after turning off DT.
Elizhaa said:
I am neutral on this point for now since PIS and CIS could be counterpoints, for now. Though, I could at least see a case for possibility.
Click to expand...
Well can you elaborate pls.
I don't see any CIS here. Just for more context. Nightmare is High3A and yet V was dead scared of Malphas who is just 7B. Purely because of her abilities. He was powerless against her hax. Just that Nero and Dante are resilient against the hax. Unaffected by her traps and unaffected by her presence.
 
Elizhaa said:
  1. On the reactive evolution and accelerated development, I mostly agree with Dante Demon Killah's points that some things are just resistance like those from the devil triggers. I will to comments more on these points later.
Click to expand...
Well, at least i say that abilities that kill than like soul eaters eating their souls or Dante being able to fight off Alice when she was sucking his life force and the Sin striping away his blood should still be on the AD and RE section, since they have statements in lore that they awaken their demonic powers institively when in the brink of death.

GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
There are feats of Reactive Evolution even when there is no DT. Same for Accelerated Development. 100% done in base.
Specifically the novel ones.
The Blood Manipulation feat from Sin for example, shows that resistance remains even after turning off DT.
Click to expand...
I pretty sure the Sin's blood hax powers was already off when Dante semi-DT is turned off, since that was the time that Dante fall off from a high altitude and finds Vergil down there.
Elizhaa said:
  1. Change the Sealing and BFR for DMC1 Dante for this one, since this one have better justifications for the feat: (Enhanced BFR and Enhanced Power Nullification via Enhanced Sealing for DMC1 Dante (Was capable of sealing Mundus away, this ability also sends the target to the Demon World and remove their powers and Dante's sealing powers is stated to be above Sparda himself)
    1. I agree with Dante Demon Killah's points; as he said, the last scan is from Belial who from DMC 4 so the part would be on Dante's DMC 4's key.
Click to expand...
Is more because of despite the statement coming in DMC4 events, Dante was able to seal Mundus away in DMC1 after he breaks from the seal that Sparda putted on him, which even before breaking from the seal Mundus was able to send his avatars to casually kill Griffon in the HW, which also have a seal that Sparda putted between the two worlds that make demons unable to travel between than.
 
Mister6ame6 said:
I pretty sure the Sin's blood hax powers was already off when Dante semi-DT is turned off, since that was the time that Dante fall off from a high altitude and finds Vergil down there
Click to expand...
I rechecked the manga again, its opposite actually when Dante falls the blood starts violently sucked off into the stone nail. And then Vergil appears and then gives the Sin the permission to reclaim its own name.
If anything Blood bending is at its strongest here.

But okay, if its still unacceptable, we still have Novel 1 feats. Adapting in base to DWE hax like Statistics reduction, Corrosion Hax, Disease and Sleep hax.
 
Hmm

That could work for me

Also Dante did not adapt to the corrosion hax, he already resisted this one, i believe you are talking about the Ilusion hax that also happens in the novel.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
I rechecked the manga again, its opposite actually when Dante falls the blood starts violently sucked off into the stone nail. And then Vergil appears and then gives the Sin the permission to reclaim its own name.
If anything Blood bending is at its strongest here.

But okay, if its still unacceptable, we still have Novel 1 feats. Adapting in base to DWE hax like Statistics reduction, Corrosion Hax, Disease and Sleep hax.
Click to expand...
Corosion? I didnt remember that part in novel
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
The familiars physical bodies exist on V as tattoos. Souls as part of his own souls. And they can even talk inside his mind telepathically.
https://vsbattles.com/threads/multiple-selves-thread.115305/post-3720485 I even discussed this on the thread dedicated for this.
Click to expand...
It seems fine, then.
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
The issue is that it slows down the enemy on contact.
Click to expand...
I still more air manipulation would be required more evidence.
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
There are feats of Reactive Evolution even when there is no DT. Same for Accelerated Development. 100% done in base.
Specifically the novel ones.
The Blood Manipulation feat from Sin for example, shows that resistance remains even after turning off DT.
Click to expand...
Yes. I am largely cool with doesn't have DT.

On Malphas' trap, I will try to reply later since it late in my timezone.
 
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I was iffy in Malphas' case since we saw the trap activates when the character is in the actual trap. The stone on Malphas' body might have a different mechanism than her trap and building on this point, Malphas looks to have not chosen to activate more traps which could be CIS.
Edit: I just saw that Nero might have been near one of the traps without issue.

Overall, my opinions on the matter remain roughly the same albeit I could more leaning for acceptance more.
 
Elizhaa said:
I still more air manipulation would be required more evidence.
Click to expand...
I am fine with that.
Elizhaa said:
Yes. I am largely cool with doesn't have DT.
Click to expand...
I think I am fine with that too. I can compromise for RE for base alone for now, unless I find a bit more support for DT from other users in which case I might argue for it again.
I am cool for base alone.
DT ones can be treated like any other normal pre-existing resistances without involving RE.

Also pls convey your opinions on Abigail AD and Chen instances RPL , I feel they are valid and straightforward enough to be mentioned on profiles.
Elizhaa said:
I was iffy in Malphas' case since we saw the trap activates when the character is in the actual trap. The stone on Malphas' body might have a different mechanism than her trap and building on this point, Malphas looks to have not chosen to activate more traps which could be CIS.
Edit: I just saw that Nero might have been near one of the traps without issue.

Overall, my opinions on the matter remain roughly the same albeit I could more leaning for acceptance more.
Click to expand...
Will respond to this later.
 
Well, OBJECTION !

After a second look, I actually am against combat applicable Concept stuff from Yamato, the reason ? Two different feats

As you guys know, Vergil isn't a Demon, he isn't a human, he is both, a hybrid, at his most deep level of existence, he's not a human possessing a Demon, and he's not a Demon possessing a human, Yamato separating those sides and his memories, while giving them from, is completely different from separating Nero from the Savior, he who was absorbed by the statue. While both feats have the "Separating" quote, what they are separating and at what level is, like I said, different. Nero and Savior are unrelated, just being united at that moment via Absorption, how, I must ask, can we take these two feats as equal ?

To quote a example, we have the anime, the Rock Queen episode. There, Dante fights a Demon that took the body of Elena Houston, and to avoid killing her, he separated them by simply throwing the Rebellion, impaling the Demon while Elena's body was completely unharmed. This makes me believe that both feats are the same (Elena and Savior) and comes from Dante, and it is in fact combat applicable, but not quite those haxes from Yamato, as both Savior-Nero and Demon-Elena were separated entities that were fused via possession or similar stuff, while Vergil was a hybrid on his inception, with the Yamato separating the parts and giving them form, making both events very different feats

What also helps this is the very fact that DMC5 makes Yamato special for being able to do what it did to Vergil, how can Dante casually doing apparently the same thing in the anime WITH REBELLION (Which is clearly stated to be able to unite Demon and Human) make any sense ?

My suggestion is giving Dante Combat Applicable Possession/Absorption Negation in his Animated Series Key

With that said, I need to ask, why Yamato Shenanigans aren't Combat Applicable again ? I forgot what was the argument
 
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First and foremost I need to see official rules page that decide what is criteria for deciding whether hax is combat applicable for not.

I searched around but didn't find any.
 
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