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The Ultra Series Discussion Thread: Unleash! The Power of Imagination!

True. And there is the possibility that Ignis thought he killed Hudram only for us the audience to find out he survived and was killed by Carmeara. So in a way that would still make Ignis believe he killed Hudram and got his revenge.
 
Hey is there any comfrime strongest ultra ranking

Because while the capsule noa scarpt seem good there is still alot of thing we don't know about the uptra capsule to say about it

For now it seem king noa and legend is alway consider to be on the same level or so i believe
 
You've posted this thrice. And no, I don't think so. At least, none that are official, I think.

And that's why we never assume the gimmicks hold any notable amount of the original Ultra's power.
 
Alright so scaling stuff first the High 4-C and 4-B Changes. Also just saying these aren't the finalized scaling. I might've missed some things so just consider this a rough draft of the scaling. Might write out the AP description for them in the Showa Era just to see how it looks in word format

High 4-C

0.945 Foe:

Man created constellations

Jack's Spacium Ray is on par with Man's Spacium Ray

BoS Jack = Man = 0.945 Foe

1 Foe:

Bemstar survived the SN 1054 Supernova

Jack’s Ultra Bracelet has power comparable if not greater than Seven’s eye slugger

Jack easily killed Bemstar with the Ultra Bracelet

BoS Jack w/ Ultra Bracelet >= Seven >> Bemstar = 1 Foe

1.89 Foe:

Jack's Cinerama Shot is twice as strong as the Spacium Ray

BoS Jack w/ Cinerama Shot = 1.89 Foe

2.835 Foe:

Ultra Attack Beam is several (at least 3) times stronger than Spacium Ray

Man w/ Ultra Attack Beam = 2.835 Foe

4.725 Foe:

Ultra Slash is 5-6x stronger than Spacium Ray

BoS Jack w/ Ultra Slash = Man w/ Ultra Slash = 4.725 Foe

10 Foe:

Ultra Knock Tactic is 10x stronger than Seven's normal eye slugger attack

Seven w/ Ultra Knock Tactic > 10 Foe

4-B

189 Foe:

Black King is hundreds of (at least 200) times stronger than Red King

Black King > 189 Foe

1.053 KiloFoe:

Zetton I is capable of destroying the Solar System from Earth. Which would require this much energy

Zetton II possesses power greater than Zetton I

Jack's Spacium Beam is equal to Zetton II's One Trillion Degree Fireball

Ace is the strongest Ultra that has appeared at the time of his series

Ace > EoS Jack = Zetton II > Zetton 1 = 1.053 KiloFoe

2.106 KiloFoe:

Jack's Cinerama Shot is twice as strong as the Spacium Ray

EoS Jack w/ Cinerama Shot > 2.106 KiloFoe

5.265 KiloFoe:

Ace has his own Ultra Slash made of his Metallium energy that is comparable to Man's Ultra Slash

Ace w/ Ultra Slash = Man w/ Ultra Slash = EoS Jack w/ Ultra Slash > 5.265 KiloFoe

15.795 KiloFoe:

Ultra Guillotine is several times stronger than the Ultra Slash

Ace w/ Ultra Guillotine > 15.795 KiloFoe

21.06 KiloFoe:

Taro’s Strium Beam is over 20x stronger than Ace’s Metallium Beam

By Ultraman Leo, Seven is the strongest Ultra Brother

BoS Leo defeated the Giras Brothers whom defeated Seven

BoS Leo > Seven (During Ultraman Leo) > Taro > 21.06 KiloFoe

47.385 KiloFoe:

English databook says Guillotine Shot is several times stronger than the Ultra Guillotine

Ace w/ Guillotine Shot > 47.385 KiloFoe

63.18 KiloFoe:

Ultra Lance is 3x stronger than Strium Beam. Used by taking Tyrant's weapon and charging it with the King Bracelet.

Taro w/ Ultra Lance (King Bracelet) > 63.18 KiloFoe

Reconstructed Bemstar is several times stronger than Taro

Saucer Beasts are stated to be the strongest type of kaiju at the time of Ultraman Leo. The saucer beast as a whole are stated to be the strongest monster and therefore stronger than every single monster that has ever appeared in the Showa Era up to Ultraman Leo.

Black End is the strongest saucer beast

Black End was originally losing against EoS Leo until Black Directive got a hostage

Joneus is the strongest warrior of the Ultra tribe.

Joneus >? EoS Leo > Black End > Saucer Beasts > Reconstructed Bemstar > 63.18 KiloFoe

94.77 KiloFoe:

Seven's kicking power is half as strong as 80's

End of Showa Ultra Brothers should be comparable to Seven

Zearth's beam is comparable to Leo and Astra

Seven 21's beam is stronger than Seven's beam

In the Chinese version of this databook its mentioned that the Elite Task Force (Neos) has power comparable to the Ultra Brothers

Neos = Seven 21 > Zearth ≈? End of Showa Ultra Brothers = End of Showa Seven > 94.77 KiloFoe

189.54 KiloFoe:

80's Ultra Ray Lance is several times stronger than Taro's Ultra Lance

Moonsault Kick is more powerful than the Succium Beam and is his ultimate technique

The USA Ultras were called the strongest squad

Beth specializes in speed battles

Chuck specializes in power battles

Scott is the strongest of the three USA Ultras

Great is the strongest ultra warrior of the Land of Light at the time of his series

Great > Scott > Chuck > Beth >? 80 > 189.54 KiloFoe

473.85 KiloFoe:

Powered's Mega Spacium Ray is 5x Ultraman's Spacium Ray

Powered > 473.85 KiloFoe

947.7 KiloFoe:

Cross Spachouchoura Beam is 10x stronger than the normal Spachouchoura Beam

Zearth's Cross Spachouchoura Beam > 947.7 KiloFoe

2.106 MegaFoe:

The Leo Astra Double Flasher isn't simply twice as strong its 100x as strong as their individual beam

Leo Astra Double Flasher > 2.106 MegaFoe

AP Description Example

Showa Era Ultraman:

Large Star level (Created constellations at the time of his series) to Solar System level (By Ultraman Leo, he could fight against the likes of Leo and Alien Babarue alongside Zoffy, Jack, and Ace. Should be comparable to Seven by the end of the Showa Era), higher w/ Ultra Attack Beam (Several [at least 3] times stronger than his Spacium Beam) and Ultra Slash (At least 5x stronger than his Spacium Beam)

Depending on how much of Ultraman Story we accept as canon the End of Showa Era Ultra Brothers could be 1/50 3-A due to Super Taro being 50x Taro and defeating Grand King who is 3-A.
 
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See, this makes the climb to 4-B look more gradual and thus logical, especially since the base is notably lower than Zetton's point.

And I think I could have forgotten it, but why are we including stuff like Cinerama Shot and Ultra Knock Tactics, which are described as being a more special type of technique, as part of the growth? Same logic we applied to stuff like Magnificent being some tens of times stronger than Primitive thanks to the statement on his Mega Bomber "technique"?

The 1/50 of 3-A only applies as of end of Showa and by Mebius? Or again, same rules? I guess it'd logically have kept the same gradual climb, but I'd like to hear more.

Okay, yeah, that is if we accept it. Honestly, I'm not sure.
 
Yeah it does

I thought we treat their signature technique as their base/normal lvl of strength? So any technique that is specifically stated to be more powerful than their signature move is what we rate as higher. For Magnificent his signature move is the Big Bustaway so I thought we just treat his double handed punch being 10x stronger than his single handed punch as him not using his full power in those moves?

And I thought we decided that these specific moves being stronger than their signature move is something limited only to the Showa Era? Since newer databooks said things like Ultra Slash = Spacium Ray rather than Ultra Slash 5-6x> Spacium Ray like the Showa Era ones.

Probably same rules it would scale to all the later Ultras due to the later Ultras all being outright stated to be stronger than past Ultras. And Glitter Tiga does have a statement about his Zerades Beam being the strongest beam in history which does kind of back up him being 3-A due to outranking the Cosmo Miracle Ray used by Super Taro. And honestly I also prefer the gradual climb. Though this would mean we would reach 3-A by Ultraman Gaia due to the Goldras scaling.
 
Um question

Does it tell us how long it took for delacion to possible created two universe because for all we know it might only create one each time
 
There was no mention of the time only that they created the universe possibly universes. Hence the possibly 2-C though we don't have a profile for it yet.
 
That is what I'm referring to; I'm fine with stuff like Specium Ray and other more frequently used finishers being used as their baseline power, and the question is only directed to the Showa scaling since I do remember that later Eras equalize the powers of their techniques. But weren't stuff like Cinerama and Knock Tactics specifically stated as being higher than their normal techniques?

Good lord, that's a pretty quick jump. I'm kind of inclined to disagree for now, ar at least disregard early Heisei from the scaling if we are to consider scaling from Story to be canon. If mostly because I think it would make weird the events around Empera and such.
 
Wait I'm kind of confused now. So are you trying to say Cinerama Shot and Knock Tactics should also be considered a higher for other era rather than just the Showa Era? If that's what you are trying to say then maybe? Cause thinking about it now Cinerama Shot and the Ultra Knock Tactic was never shown on screen anymore so there really isn't anything contradicting it being stronger than their signature finishers in the later eras.

Yeah like if we assume End of Showa 6 Ultra Brothers really are 1/50 baseline 3-A than that would make Powered 1/10 baseline 3-A. And Tiga scales above Powered with Dyna scaling 3x above Tiga via Silvergon and thus stands at 1/3.33 baseline 3-A. Gaia currently scales from Goldras so he would be 6x baseline 3-A. And all other Heisei Ultras in Base scales from Gaia.

Though I thought we do accept the Grand King fight and Juda as canon? Also to be fair Alien Empera was said to be stronger in Ultraman Mebius than he was during the Great Ultra War. And Alien Empera's statements of being the greatest threat to the Land of Light and thus scaling above Juda was specifically referring to him in the Great Ultra War rather than in Ultraman Mebius. So I guess in a way the scaling wouldn't be too weird. Also wasn't there that one monster in Ultraman Gaia that could destroy the universe?

And thinking about it now Gudis does have a statement of being able to destroy the universe in UGF2. And Great beat it in his series. Hmmm.
 
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Whuh? No, that's not what I meant. I was just confused why it was part of the scaling chain in the Showa Era, but I guess looking at it again, it's just a part of their own scaling. I just mistakenly thought techniques like Cinerama were to be included as part of their users' natural AP, not as part of their "higher" via techniques section.

Huh, that's weird, I thought we still kept that fight as exclusive to Story, but still considered for Super Taro and comparison for Juda Specter, at least. Oh well. And yeah, Antimatter had a "50/50 chance of turning the universe into an anti-matter one" statement.

Gudis probably had one of the biggest retcon during TAC. I actually feel a little iffy about that and consider mostly being his range and 3-A via enviro damage.
 
Ahh I see. Yeah they aren’t part of their normal AP it’s just that some Ultras like 80 have statements of their weaker techniques scaling above other Ultras special techniques.

Yeah like that’s what I’m asking. I thought we consider Super Taro defeating Grand King and thus scaling to Juda canon? Since that’s what we currently have on the scaling blog. Showa Era Super Taro is 3-A. Ahh yeah Antimatter.

I see.

So what’s the consensus on Super Taro? Since he has an outright 50x statement now downscaling is a thing that we kind of have to do. So should we go and downscale him or should we ignore the 50x statement for the Showa Era?
 
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Yeah, took a while for me to figure that out, hence the initial confusion.

Hmm, I guess you're right about downscaling and how the chain wouldn't be broken given Empera being stronger during Mebius. I want to say we play it safe first, so let's ignore that for the time being. But it's also only a pretty fair 50x downscale...

Update: If nobody else objects to it, then I guess it should be fine. Alternatively, since the scaling comes from Story instead of a mainline series, what if we disregard any scaling rooted from Super Taro from Heisei and make a brief branch that only upscales early Heisei to the last Showa series?
 
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Yeah I think ignoring it is for the best cause Leo’s emotion amped beam is supposed to be comparable to the Cosmo Miracle Ray. And the boost from that was supposed to be tens of thousands of times so at least 20,000x stronger than EoS Leo’s normal beam. But Taro who even at the end of Showa is weaker than Leo only needed to be 50x stronger as Super Taro to use the Cosmo Miracle Ray. So yeah there’s already some contradictions with the statements.

Yeah ignoring Super Taro being 3-A would actually make things a lot easier for us. So we could just treat Showa Era Super Taro defeating Grand King as an outlier or non canon since it’s from Ultraman Story so we don’t need to downscale.
 
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Ah, so it did. Well in that case, non-canon should be more accurate if we're going to ignore Story from the overall scaling chain.
 
Alright so that means. A theoretical canon Showa Era Super Taro will just be 4-B. Juda’s existence and his battle against Father of Ultra in the past as well as Grand King‘s existence will be the only thing canon things from Ultraman Story as those are things that are mentioned in a few databooks. Super Taro will only be 3-A in the Ultraman Story continuity which is separate from the main continuity.
 
Wait, oh I thought it's only the 50x statement that we're discarding for not the entire Story continuity because like you said, Grand King seem to be the strongest connective tissue between Story and the rest of the series so far, making Super Taro alone at 3-A without downscaling like a pretty fair rating.
 
Wait so what do we do? We keep the Super Taro being 50x Taro statement or do we discard it?

And do we still treat the Grand King fight as canon and make Showa Era Super Taro 3-A? Or do we ignore that fight and only keep the background info of Ultraman Story (Juda distorting the universe, Father of Ultra defeating him, Grand King’s existence) as canon?
 
Throw out the 50x statement, I guess, seeing how much it jumps everyone else.

Won't Super Taro only influence the later 3-As' ratings though? If so, keeping him at 3-A plus the background info seem reasonable since Grand King is also still acknowledged in those books that also detail Gatanothor and pretty much everyone else.
 
Showa Era Super Taro actually doesn’t influence any 3-A in the series. He just has his own feat of defeating Grand King who is 3-A. The other 3-As in the Showa Era like Father of Ultra has his own scaling to Alien Empera who is stated to be the greatest threat to the Land of Light and thus stronger than Juda. And the Andro Warriors outright defeated the Gua Siblings which have nothing to do with Super Taro.
 
Looks to me nothing is actually to be changed, so keeping everything as it were is alright. Besides, we also still have the numerous statements for later so keeping the 50x Taro for downscaling would lead to inflation.
 
Alright so we throw out the 50x statement and leave the Showa 3-A stuff alone.

I’ll do the rest of the scalings and stuff on Wednesday once finals are over. And man I can already imagine the pain that is the TDG scaling due to the TD and TDG team up multiplying strength statements.
 
Reading through the scans on Cosmos Ultras' techniques again, I just realized how powerful their Paralysis are. We don't have Time Stop, but if we take the alternate name literally, we get the next best thing which is Space Stop (空間停止|Kuukan Teishi). Makes sense when they describe it as being able to "stop even in places with gravity". So yeah, essentially Paralysis Inducemement via Spatial Manipulation for Cosmos Ultras.

Minor update: I just noticed that as early as 10th November, somebody done intruded on my Heisei Sandbox page. Made Noa 2-C and gave him Immeasurable.
 
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Can you show me your sand box

Also how is nexus 2-C when he is only about king and legend level

And i think immeasurable speed is due to the stats from tsuburaya which i say shouldn't taken to heart because if that the case then space corona cosmos is also that fast
 
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I found the full Chinese translation of Zero's section about the Waterfall of Time from chapters 1 and 6 of the Ultimate Force Zero novel

赛罗官方小说 终极警备队赛罗～sidestory～【奥比奥吧】_百度贴吧

tieba.baidu.com tieba.baidu.com

And I found the entire novel translated on BiliBili.

终极赛罗警备队-哔哩哔哩_bilibili

bilibili是国内知名的视频弹幕网站，这里有及时的动漫新番，活跃的ACG氛围，有创意的Up主。大家可以在这里找到许多欢乐。
search.bilibili.com search.bilibili.com

And man I took a quick peek and I already saw some cool stuff. In chapter 1 they outright mentioned the multiverse having countless universes again and the Omega Armageddon which dragged them all into war. This pretty much confirms that it was indeed the Super Dimension Eradication Bomb that affected the Waterfall of Time in chapter 6. And it seems like in chapter 6 future Zero traveled to the past to tell his past self about the Waterfall of Time or something. So there seemed to have been some kind of loop going on. And Zero seems to have done this by traveling through the Waterfall of Time which further supports that the place exists outside of time and the universe.

I’ll probably translate the novel once my finals are over. I’m probably also gonna post it on Reddit so more people could read the novel and know about these lore stuff.

Also by the way here's a draft of the future tier 2 revision thanks to the Zero novel. What do you guys think of it so far? I probably won't say its the finalized version until I finish reading the novel. And it seems like there's some slight grammar and detail differences for the two different translations of the novel. So I'm probably gonna use the BiliBili version in the finalized draft since its the full version of the novel and the grammar and stuff is better.

Ultra Series Tier 2 Revision

Low 2-C

So as we all know in this thread the Super Dimension Eradication Bomb was accepted as at least 3-A, likely Low 2-C due to their not being enough evidence that it actually destroyed space-time. However as it turns out this was mentioned in Ultimate Force Zero novel which was released on Zero's 10th anniversary and detailed how Zero managed to gain control of his Shining form after the events of Ultra Zero Fight. Here is the full novel and it is in Chinese since this is a Chinese translation of the novel. This section here is the part that's important

在完成了守门人给子赛罗的试炼之后。守门人
对他说道：
“我有件事想拜托你”
“拜托我•••？”
“我想让你把我的“身体”带回来”
根据守门人的说明，在不久前（但对赛罗来
说好像是很久之后）有谁引发了一场毀灭时空
的大爆炸，那场爆炸也给这里带来了不小的影
响。幸好因为爆炸带来的宇宙毁灭在中途停了
下来，但因为爆炸的冲击，守门人的身体和精
神被分离，身体也不知道被炸到了哪个时代。
“原来如此。但为啥找我？你自己应该就能解
决这事吧？”

Here's my translation of it

After completing the trial the Guardian gave to Zero. The Guardian said to him:
"I have a favor to ask you"
"A favor?"
"I want you to bring my "body" back"
According to the guardian's explanation, not long ago (but to Zero It seems like a long time later) somebody caused a big bang that could destroy time and space. That explosion also brought a lot of impact here.
Fortunately, the destruction of the universe caused by the explosion stopped midway.
But because of the impact of the explosion, the body and spirit of the guardian was separated, and the body was blasted to an unknown era.
"I see. But why do you want me to look for it? You should be capable of solving this problem yourself?"

This novel was released on March 20, 2021 and up till this point in the series the only event that has caused the destruction of the universe and space-time was the Crisis Impact caused by the Super-Dimension Eradication Bomb from Ultraman Geed that came out in July 2017. The place they are in right now is the Waterfall of Time a place that exists outside of the universe. And the Guardian of Time is somebody that exists in the Waterfall of time so his perception of time is different from Zero's which was why in the novel it said to the Guardian the events of Crisis Impact was not long ago but to Zero it was a long time later. The novel takes place after Ultra Zero Fight but before the New Generation Era which means this took place over 81 years before the events of Crisis Impact which supports the fact that to Zero this event hasn't happened yet and won't happen for a long time. And here it's mentioned that the bomb is outright like a big bang and could destroy space-time and the entire universe had it not been stopped midway by Ultraman King. And not only that the effects of the bomb also affected the Waterfall of Time which exists outside of the universe so its range isn't limited to just the universe.

So I propose that instead of at least 3-A, likely Low 2-C. The Super-Dimension Eradication Bomb should be changed to outright Low 2-C as we now have undeniable proof that the bomb is capable of destroying the space-time and has range that can even affect even places outside of the universe.
 
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If there's a picture of a smiling and crying pepe, I'd have posted it.

So it was Zero himself was the one who started the rumor.

Anyway, the only parts I'd change is to probably trim down the off-universe context explanation like the characters the novel refers to. And, just to be safe, I think it's also been established before that the bomb did already cause space-time to collapse, just wasn't accepted it was the whole timeline. I also know this already involves the WoT being affected, but also include UGF's description of a universe being a continuum, and the GRF VD's explanation that each universe has a different history, meaning they are causally separated.
 
Maybe. I haven’t actually done a serious read through of the novel so I’m not sure just yet.

So basically remove the dialogue and stuff right?

The Waterfall of Time and Zero meeting the Guardian of Time happened over 81 years before the Super-Dimension Eradication Bomb was activated so it’s shown that it also affected the past as well as a place outside of time. Like this has to be enough evidence right? In the present it’s outright stated that it affected the entire universe and here we see mentions of it affecting even the past and blasting the guardians body to another era entirely.

Can you find the links to the UGF and GRF stuff? I forgot where that was stated.
 
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I see so remove the background and dates about the series. Alright.

I'll make a 2nd version of the draft with those info later.
 
Just the specific dates of the shows since they do take place some good years apart. The dialogue is definitely to be kept if it was planned to be removed since it's pretty indispensable.

Okay.

I was looking at my Sandbox again, and I saw that I still had Gravity as part of Max's resistance. Then I realized that in that case, Dark Baltan's Gravity Manipulation actually bypasses resistance since Max had trouble with it.
 
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Anyway exam and stuff are over. Gonna try and see if I can finish translating chapter 1 of the novel first. After that I’ll make the 2nd draft of the tier 2 revision.
 
First time actually formally translating something from Chinese to English. It’s actually much harder than I thought. This is just half of the first page of the Chinese translation. Do you guys think the grammar and stuff is okay? There are some Chinese words, phrases, and expressions that don't really have a direct translation in English so I decided to substitute it with words and phrases that are close to it. Hope things get easier once I'm past the narration and at the dialogues.

Ultimate Force Zero ~Side Story~
Chapter 1 Ultraman Zero Chapter
"Waterfall of Time"

The flow of time will not change.

Although it is invisible and silent, it doesn't matter whether you have life or not, whether it's the mind or body, it will be just as ruthless, only moving forward. As time advances, matter will decay, life will be born silently, the body will age, and the mind will continue to be enriched.

Everything in the universe enjoys time equally and is equally taken away by time. This should be an unchanging law.

Yes, it should’ve been.

But one day, this unchanging law was overturned.

A warrior with a radiating golden light reversed the flow of time and saved the lives of his once-dead comrades. The warrior was once deeply under the control of a devil, but when the devil's treacherous plan was about to succeed, something completely unexpected happened.

The warrior’s name is Zero.

And the devil’s name is Belial.

The two will meet again in the war that will engulf the multiverse in the coming future.

The next thing that will be told is a short story that happened before the war broke out.
 
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The grammar looks fine, nothing seems out of place. Likely because we don't really have the source for comparison, but that's nothing we can do anything about.

This kinda scares me about how time is portrayed in the series though. Because while they acknowledge dimensional energies as being comprised of space-time, it seems that time itself is a whole other level, seeing that it's the same with time travel. Though I suppose this also means that controlling time directly is actually more a case of layered ability. I'm hoping for the latter.

I wonder if this could also somehow mean controlling any major aspect of thw universe should count as Law Manipulation of some form.

Right, sudden realization. Since Bullton's ability is known to be able to throw enemies out not only across universes, but also time, and Zero countered that, do you think it's feasible to say at least Shining Star Drive is layered?
 
I see thanks for the feedback.

Maybe we'll probably have to read more to find out.

Yeah that's what I thought is a possibility when I saw how they mentioned time is an unchanging law in the novel.

Possibly.

Also here's the other half of the first page. And welp we've got a synonym for infinite mentioned here for the universe. Gonna work on the second page now.



The boundless dark universe is dotted with stars. A shining meteor passed by, drawing a bright arc in the darkness. It was Zero’s body glowing brightly, moving at ultra-high speed.

Ultraman Zero.

He was born in the M78 Nebula, the Land of Light, and his people have superhuman-like abilities. Zero’s combat ability is particularly outstanding. He has traveled through different dimensions and protected the peace of many universes. But at this moment, his face showed an uneasy expression that did not commensurate with his usual unrestrained nature.

He fell into Belial’s trap and personally ended the lives of his comrades. And without any memory, he showed a powerful power that can control time. The most important thing is that this power seems to have resurrected his old nemesis Belial.

These things have all become scars that cannot be erased from his heart. Although Glenfire managed to cheer him up by talking some sense into him, Zero failed to reactivate the golden power after that, which made it impossible to truly eliminate the anxiety in his heart.
 
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