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That's what Malomtek suggested above, lol
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The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier
- Thread starter AKM sama
- Start date
- Status
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Me interpreting this wrong
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The only difference between the amplification of kaioken and ssj is by how much. Just because kaioken is strenuous and ssj is not isn't a defeater to that.
..huh?
People always unleash their ki for dramatic effect when they power up, especially to a never before seen for. That doesn't necessarily mean the form itself amplifies ki. Even if the form does, I already explained why it wouldn't even matter regardless.
Thats not a self contradiction and isn't hard to comprehend. The ki amplification would be less then the speed decrease. For example if the speed amplification was 5, and the speed decrease -10, the resulting speed would be -5 lower than it was originally.
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It's an analogy concerning how ki amplification can work in different ways. If you didn't get it, I can't help you.
But not necessarily by equal amounts, or to an equal level, the former of which is what the Kaio-ken (supposedly) does.
The very fact that Kaio-ken is strenuous while SSJ is not, and that neither were stacked in canon until Dragon Ball Super with SSJB Kaio-ken, shows that the technique and the transformation amplify ki in fundamentally different ways that don't allow either technique to necessarily "scale" to each other.
Practically every time a character powers up in Dragon Ball, it's associated with ki amplification. That's why it's called "powering up". The idea that Future Trunk's SSJ Grade 3 transformation was "just for dramatic effect" and that he was just "ki flexing" or whatever is nonsensical.
The reason we have advanced stages of Super Saiyan called "Grade 2" and "Grade 3" to begin with is because they "force" more ki into the Super Saiyan's body, "artificially" amplifying the Super Saiyan's ki count and giving them more raw (ki) power than "average", "baseline", "regular" Super Saiyan.
That's still adding and subtracting speed simultaneously, which is still a self-contradiction in this context. The pedantry in your argument is frankly absurd.
A single transformation cannot amplify and decrease speed at the same time. That's just not how things work.
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lolk
SirAlex09
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I mean if you stack them, you double the strain which is why he never used it together.
Kaioken is artificial while SSJ is natural so it's only logical that the former stresses the body more. Also the nature of Kaioken requires more focus and Ki control ( which makes sense, since it's a technique and not a transformation) else you will quickly run out of steam which is another reason why Goku didn't use it.
He was powering up but he did it via Rage boost and simultanously transformed into grade 3. This becomes evident when he initially kept with Cell speedwise while he couldn't do it in his grade 2 before. It's like this:
(fictional numbers for the sake of display) Rage boost: + 10 Strength. + 10 Speed , Grade 3 : Strength +20, -5 Speed. In total: + 30 strength, +5 speed. ( Grade 3 +
Rage boost.)
He used the Ki amplification through rage and afterwards channeled that Ki into raw strength via Grade 3.
Afterwards he went deeper into Grade 3 and enhanced his raw strength even further at the cost of his speed.. which went from +5 to -10.
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It is only strenuous when raising it far beyond one's limits firstly. Secondly if kaioken has stamina issues and ssj doesn't necessarily mean they amplify ki differently, thats a non sequitur, it just means outside of amplifying ki, kaioken has different functionality. Again, doesn't defeat that the fact that the ki amplifcation leads to the multiplication of stats.
Thats not a self contradiction, and I literally clarified it for you already, you are just going ad nauseum, you didn't even bother refuting what I said, you just insulted it and then repeated what I addressed LMAO. Nice appeal to stone.
But yeah you aren't really changing my stance on this subject nor is anyone else, and I already expressed my thoughts, so I'll be unfollowing.
SirAlex09
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same
Here is the current list. As of right now, the disagree fraction is nearly three times as big lol
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at least it's not going through
maybe
probably
maybe
probably
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The Staff will make the difference, as always............
GodlyCharmander
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Oh boy
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This is laughable.
GodlyCharmander
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Two transformations can have the same effect without sharing the exact same consequence. They're not mutually exclusive, and I don't know why you'd think that.
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look I'm gonna be honest, this thread is a bit infuriating
I still don't see how there are ANY admins on the disagreeing side, when the arguments in favor so far have been just dancing around the fact that you have to admit that a super saiyan's speed is less than or equal to kaioken times 20 or which is a clear cut case of WRONG
I still don't see how there are ANY admins on the disagreeing side, when the arguments in favor so far have been just dancing around the fact that you have to admit that a super saiyan's speed is less than or equal to kaioken times 20 or which is a clear cut case of WRONG
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"Kaioken works differently than SSJ".
Meanwhile:
both stated to work via amplifying one's ki/battery potential which results in increase to stats. Results are the same, methods are different, albeit slightly.
GodlyCharmander
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The original post is far from a troll, and it should not be closed until it reaches it's conclusion.Can a moderator close this troll post? No matter what evidence is brought up. It will always be his feelings and headcanon>author statement, guides, logic, statements. It's pointless
GodlyCharmander
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I don't know why the lack of intense fatigue would result in a different effect altogether, this just seems like a false equivalency.
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Yeah, it just seems like a weakness for the technique itself tbh.
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ok just to make sure I'm getting it all right
frieza was stated to be using half of his capabilities at 50% power, and then would double said capabilities at 100% power thus making him twice as fast
kaioken times 20 goku makes him twenty times as fast as base which I think we agreed on? and he is equal to the speed of 50% power frieza, which means in order to be faster than 100% frieza he had to be faster than twice as fast as 40 times his base form. And we also know that super saiyan increases speed, as it was stated that when power increases so does speed. And we ALSO know that kaioken's (linear) increase of speed comes from it increasing ki or something to that affect, which is the same thing that super saiyan does.
I'm still confused on where the point of counterargument is against this
frieza was stated to be using half of his capabilities at 50% power, and then would double said capabilities at 100% power thus making him twice as fast
kaioken times 20 goku makes him twenty times as fast as base which I think we agreed on? and he is equal to the speed of 50% power frieza, which means in order to be faster than 100% frieza he had to be faster than twice as fast as 40 times his base form. And we also know that super saiyan increases speed, as it was stated that when power increases so does speed. And we ALSO know that kaioken's (linear) increase of speed comes from it increasing ki or something to that affect, which is the same thing that super saiyan does.
I'm still confused on where the point of counterargument is against this
SirAlex09
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You are clearly "obtuse". What have we been talking about the last 3 pages? The counterargument is that Kaioken drains stamina more rapidly than SSJ which obviously means and proves that SSJ doesn't multiply your speed 50 fold.
Imagine .. just imagine someone debating like that against Seth XD
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anyways in all seriousness I think the points have already been fully talked through, all that's left is for a kind staff member or two to see all the things that have been said and choose the disagreeing side, the right side
or maybe AKM can just scrap the thread due to being wrong? maybe. idk
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But here I thought they were both "just ki amplification", and both worked in ways that allowed one to automatically scale to the other.
And SSJ doesn't have equal strain to Kaio-ken. You don't (just) "double" its strain by stacking Kaio-ken on top of it.
Trunks wasn't particularly angrier when he transformed to Super Saiyan Grade 3 than he was in any other point in the Android/Cell Saga.
Cell also literally admitted he was playing with SSJ Grade 3 Trunks all along, which also explains why Trunks was initially able to keep up with him at that form.
"Rage boosted" SSJ Grade 3 Trunks is nothing more than headcanon (a term you people love throwing around a lot).
No. Overuse of the Kaio-ken is clearly portrayed as strenuous in general. One can mildly mitigate the strain through further training, but it still stands that the Kaio-ken as a technique is only really meant to be used sparingly.
If one form/technique negatively impacts one stat, and another doesn't, it's literally proof positive that they amplify ki differently, just like with SSJ Grade 3 and regular SSJ.
And it's not just "stamina" that's negatively affected by Kaio-ken overuse, it's bodily integrity in general.
And what "different functionality" is there to Kaio-ken? I thought you people all agreed that it was all "just ki amplification" in the end? Why is there a sudden distinction being made now?
It is.
All you did was repeat what you previously said, just with different wording. There was nothing new you brought up, so there was nothing further to refute.
Calm down, son.
Kaio-ken isn't even a transformation. It's a technique. One that, unlike SSJ, essentially "forces" the body's ki count to "spike" upwards. The very premise of your argument falls apart from there.
Stop verbally fellating Seth the Programmer, for Pete's sake.
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It's valid logic and quite sound. Hop doesn't fully agree until he gets time to read the replies too.
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most of the good stuff is on page 4 I think
there's a ton of evidence that super saiyana is times 50 but to put it simply
kaioken times 20 is a 20 times speed boost, and all it does is multiply ki potential (or whatever it's called) which is the same thing that ssj multiplies. So it'd multiply linearly to 50 times.
most of all though is the scaling chain that proves that 100% frieza is 40 times faster than base goku, and is still slower than ssj which puts ssj very close to 50 by default, which is why we can assume it's 50 even from that alone
GodlyCharmander
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It not being a transformation does not change my point. It has the same effects as the Super Saiyan, so it not sharing the same consequence is irrelevant.
"forces the body's ki count (???) to spike upwards"
Where did you get that description from? That's just confirmation bias.
It multiply one's ki, with a glaring weakness. SSJ does the same, without a glaring weakness. The discussion ends here.
Ayo? What the ****?
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yeah calling seth a pedophile was entirely uncalled for and completely irrelevant to the thread
and isn't that like, not even true? are you even allowed to post that?
and isn't that like, not even true? are you even allowed to post that?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yeah you shouldn't call Seth like that without having proof for that (like a case going against him, people reporting him for that etc)
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yeah you shouldn't call Seth like that without having proof for that (like a case going against him, people reporting him for that etc)
EmilioRory10
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And even then it'd be completely irrelevant to this
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Its not. It only is when using it beyond your limits, which is made abundantly clear within the show.
First part of what you said was literally addressed 5000 times by multiple people, so theres no need to address that.
Second part, yeah i'm aware of that, and I said that just means outside of amplifying ki kaioken has different functionality, such as being strenuous, such as being able to increase the amp at your hearts content (at risk of dying).
Third part just shows me you haven't been paying attention. We are saying the increase in stats, such as strength,speed,dura, all come from this ki amplification. Everyone is, and has always been aware of the functionality outside of the ki amplifcation such as the strain, and the choosing of how high you want the amp to be (at your own peril). It having traits external to this isn't a defeater to it. And it certainly doesn't change the fact that it's clearly shown and stated that this multiplication from all of these stats COME FROM THE KI AMPLIFCATION. Never is it implied it comes from something external to the actual amplification.
refuses to clarify further despite me giving substantiation as to why I wasn't
Because clearly you have a hard time wrapping your head around the idea that there are two forces acting upon trunks's speed in grade 3 (if i steelmanned the idea it increased ki), the ki amp which would acting for it/increasing it, and the muscle mass, which is clearly greater, acting against it, and the sum total of both of these "forces" acting upon this speed is negative/decreasing it.
You never refuted this, you just said "oh yeah thats self-contradictory" and never elaborated further. If you did say something explaining that, by all means SHOW US.
Calling your argument fallacious means i'm not calm? Thats very interesting.
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lmfao
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I was responding to this, just so that everyone has a little bit more context. It's referring to Seth the Programmer, who had extensive pedophilia accusations made against him a while back.
I will not comment any further on this subject. Let's all move on from it in this thread.
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never in my life have I seen a thread this......I do not actually have a good word to describe it, I can't even tell if it's a negative or positive feeling, it's more of an imaginary number
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