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That's what Malomtek suggested above, lolWhere could the 1% doubt possibly come from?
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That's what Malomtek suggested above, lolWhere could the 1% doubt possibly come from?
Me interpreting this wrongWhere could the 1% doubt possibly come from?
The only difference between the amplification of kaioken and ssj is by how much. Just because kaioken is strenuous and ssj is not isn't a defeater to that.You people keep insisting on making false equivalences between Kaio-ken and SSJ because "they amplify ki" while ignoring everything else about how they work. They don't amplify ki in the same ways. Hence the immense strain for Kaio-ken and relative lack of strain for SSJ.
..huh?This is like saying that Goku's Kamehameheha wave should be faster/more powerful than Goku himself because Raditz's scouter read Goku's ki being amplified while he does it
People always unleash their ki for dramatic effect when they power up, especially to a never before seen for. That doesn't necessarily mean the form itself amplifies ki. Even if the form does, I already explained why it wouldn't even matter regardless.When Trunks first went into Super Saiyan Grade 3, he powered up like every other Super Saiyan does. The form 100% involves ki amplification.
Thats not a self contradiction and isn't hard to comprehend. The ki amplification would be less then the speed decrease. For example if the speed amplification was 5, and the speed decrease -10, the resulting speed would be -5 lower than it was originally.And "even if it was ki amplification, that just means the speed decrease is greater than the increase given by amplification" sounds like a bit of a self-contradiction. Speed cannot increase and decrease simultaneously.
It's an analogy concerning how ki amplification can work in different ways. If you didn't get it, I can't help you.???????
But not necessarily by equal amounts, or to an equal level, the former of which is what the Kaio-ken (supposedly) does.who cares if they amplify it in different ways if it's the ki amplyifying itself that results in more speed and power. bad argument, you are intentionally bringing up blatantly irrelevant things
The very fact that Kaio-ken is strenuous while SSJ is not, and that neither were stacked in canon until Dragon Ball Super with SSJB Kaio-ken, shows that the technique and the transformation amplify ki in fundamentally different ways that don't allow either technique to necessarily "scale" to each other.The only difference between the amplification of kaioken and ssj is by how much. Just because kaioken is strenuous and ssj is not isn't a defeater to that.
Practically every time a character powers up in Dragon Ball, it's associated with ki amplification. That's why it's called "powering up". The idea that Future Trunk's SSJ Grade 3 transformation was "just for dramatic effect" and that he was just "ki flexing" or whatever is nonsensical.People always unleash their ki for dramatic effect when they power up, especially to a never before seen for. That doesn't necessarily mean the form itself amplifies ki. Even if the form does, I already explained why it wouldn't even matter regardless.
That's still adding and subtracting speed simultaneously, which is still a self-contradiction in this context. The pedantry in your argument is frankly absurd.Thats not a self contradiction and isn't hard to comprehend. The ki amplification would be less then the speed decrease. For example if the speed amplification was 5, and the speed decrease -10, the resulting speed would be -5 lower than it was originally.
lolkIf you didn't get it, I can't help you.
I mean if you stack them, you double the strain which is why he never used it together.The very fact that Kaio-ken is strenuous while SSJ is not, and that neither were stacked in canon until Dragon Ball Super with SSJB Kaio-ken, shows that the technique and the transformation amplify ki in fundamentally different ways that don't allow either technique to necessarily "scale" to each other.
He was powering up but he did it via Rage boost and simultanously transformed into grade 3. This becomes evident when he initially kept with Cell speedwise while he couldn't do it in his grade 2 before. It's like this:Practically every time a character powers up in Dragon Ball, it's associated with ki amplification. That's why it's called "powering up". The idea that Future Trunk's SSJ Grade 3 transformation was "just for dramatic effect" and that he was just "ki flexing" or whatever is nonsensical.
The reason we have advanced stages of Super Saiyan called "Grade 2" and "Grade 3" to begin with is because they "force" more ki into the Super Saiyan's body, "artificially" amplifying the Super Saiyan's ki count and giving them more raw (ki) power than "average", "baseline", "regular" Super Saiyan.
It is only strenuous when raising it far beyond one's limits firstly. Secondly if kaioken has stamina issues and ssj doesn't necessarily mean they amplify ki differently, thats a non sequitur, it just means outside of amplifying ki, kaioken has different functionality. Again, doesn't defeat that the fact that the ki amplifcation leads to the multiplication of stats.The very fact that Kaio-ken is strenuous while SSJ is not, and that neither were stacked in canon until Dragon Ball Super with SSJB Kaio-ken, shows that the technique and the transformation amplify ki in fundamentally different ways that don't allow either technique to necessarily "scale" to each other.
Thats not a self contradiction, and I literally clarified it for you already, you are just going ad nauseum, you didn't even bother refuting what I said, you just insulted it and then repeated what I addressed LMAO. Nice appeal to stone.That's still adding and subtracting speed simultaneously, which is still a self-contradiction in this context. The pedantry in your argument is frankly absurd.
A single transformation cannot amplify and decrease speed at the same time. That's just not how things work.
sameI'll be unfollowing.
Here is the current list. As of right now, the disagree fraction is nearly three times as big lolAgree with the OP (10): AKM sama, Damage, Ovens, Confluctor, Zamasu Chan, Maverick, Antvasima
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Disagreement (28) : Medeus, Gilad, Stefano, Orange, Null, Arslan, Therefir, KLOL , SirAlex09, Vizer04
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Neutral: Nierre @ LephyrTheRevanchist
The Staff will make the difference, as always............same
Here is the current list. As of right now, the disagree fraction is nearly three times as big lol
Oh boytowards her
10x SSJ
Two transformations can have the same effect without sharing the exact same consequence. They're not mutually exclusive, and I don't know why you'd think that.Yadda, Yadda, Kaioken works differently from SSJ.
"Kaioken works differently than SSJ".Two transformations can have the same effect without sharing the exact same consequence. They're not mutually exclusive, and I don't know why'd you think that.
The original post is far from a troll, and it should not be closed until it reaches it's conclusion.Can a moderator close this troll post? No matter what evidence is brought up. It will always be his feelings and headcanon>author statement, guides, logic, statements. It's pointless
I don't know why the lack of intense fatigue would result in a different effect altogether, this just seems like a false equivalency."Kaioken works differently than SSJ".
Meanwhile:
both stated to work via amplifying one's ki/battery potential which results in increase to stats. Results are the same, methods are different, albeit slightly.
Yeah, it just seems like a weakness for the technique itself tbh.I don't know why the lack of intense fatigue would result in a different effect altogether, this just seems like a false equivalency.
You are clearly "obtuse". What have we been talking about the last 3 pages? The counterargument is that Kaioken drains stamina more rapidly than SSJ which obviously means and proves that SSJ doesn't multiply your speed 50 fold.ok just to make sure I'm getting it all right
frieza was stated to be using half of his capabilities at 50% power, and then would double said capabilities at 100% power thus making him twice as fast
kaioken times 20 goku makes him twenty times as fast as base which I think we agreed on? and he is equal to the speed of 50% power frieza, which means in order to be faster than 100% frieza he had to be faster than twice as fast as 40 times his base form. And we also know that super saiyan increases speed, as it was stated that when power increases so does speed. And we ALSO know that kaioken's (linear) increase of speed comes from it increasing ki or something to that affect, which is the same thing that super saiyan does.
I'm still confused on where the point of counterargument is against this
You are clearly "obtuse". What have we been talking about the last 3 pages? The counterargument is that Kaioken drains stamina more rapidly than SSJ which obviously means and proves that SSJ doesn't multiply your speed 50 fold.
Imagine .. just imagine someone debating like that against Seth XD
But here I thought they were both "just ki amplification", and both worked in ways that allowed one to automatically scale to the other.I mean if you stack them, you double the strain which is why he never used it together.
Kaioken is artificial while SSJ is natural so it's only logical that the former stresses the body more. Also the nature of Kaioken requires more focus and Ki control ( which makes sense, since it's a technique and not a transformation) else you will quickly run out of steam which is another reason why Goku didn't use it.
Trunks wasn't particularly angrier when he transformed to Super Saiyan Grade 3 than he was in any other point in the Android/Cell Saga.He was powering up but he did it via Rage boost and simultanously transformed into grade 3. This becomes evident when he initially kept with Cell speedwise while he couldn't do it in his grade 2 before. It's like this:
(fictional numbers for the sake of display) Rage boost: + 10 Strength. + 10 Speed , Grade 3 : Strength +20, -5 Speed. In total: + 30 strength, +5 speed. ( Grade 3 +
Rage boost.)
He used the Ki amplification through rage and afterwards channeled that Ki into raw strength via Grade 3.
Afterwards he went deeper into Grade 3 and enhanced his raw strength even further at the cost of his speed.. which went from +5 to -10.
No. Overuse of the Kaio-ken is clearly portrayed as strenuous in general. One can mildly mitigate the strain through further training, but it still stands that the Kaio-ken as a technique is only really meant to be used sparingly.It is only strenuous when raising it far beyond one's limits firstly.
If one form/technique negatively impacts one stat, and another doesn't, it's literally proof positive that they amplify ki differently, just like with SSJ Grade 3 and regular SSJ.Secondly if kaioken has stamina issues and ssj doesn't necessarily mean they amplify ki differently, thats a non sequitur, it just means outside of amplifying ki, kaioken has different functionality.
It is.Thats not a self contradiction
All you did was repeat what you previously said, just with different wording. There was nothing new you brought up, so there was nothing further to refute.and I literally clarified it for you already, you are just going ad nauseum, you didn't even bother refuting what I said, you just insulted it and then repeated what I addressed LMAO.
Calm down, son.Nice appeal to stone.
Kaio-ken isn't even a transformation. It's a technique. One that, unlike SSJ, essentially "forces" the body's ki count to "spike" upwards. The very premise of your argument falls apart from there.Two transformations can have the same effect without sharing the exact same consequence. They're not mutually exclusive, and I don't know why you'd think that.
Stop verbally fellating Seth the Programmer, for Pete's sake.Imagine .. just imagine someone debating like that against Seth XD
ah yes amazing thanks for helping maintain the civil conversa-Calm down, son.
Stop verbally fellating Seth the Pedo, for Pete's sake.
most of the good stuff is on page 4 I thinkIt's valid logic and quite sound. Hop doesn't fully agree until he gets time to read the replies too.
It not being a transformation does not change my point. It has the same effects as the Super Saiyan, so it not sharing the same consequence is irrelevant.Kaio-ken isn't even a transformation. It's a technique. One that, unlike SSJ, essentially "forces" the body's ki count to "spike" upwards. The very premise of your argument falls apart from there.
Ayo? What the ****?Stop verbally fellating Seth the Pedo, for Pete's sake.
Yeah you shouldn't call Seth like that without having proof for that (like a case going against him, people reporting him for that etc)Stop verbally fellating Seth the Pedo, for Pete's sake.
And even then it'd be completely irrelevant to thisYeah you shouldn't call Seth like that without having proof for that (like a case going against him, people reporting him for that etc)
Its not. It only is when using it beyond your limits, which is made abundantly clear within the show.No. Overuse of the Kaio-ken is clearly portrayed as strenuous in general. One can mildly mitigate the strain through further training, but it still stands that the Kaio-ken as a technique is only really meant to be used sparingly.
However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits.
First part of what you said was literally addressed 5000 times by multiple people, so theres no need to address that.If one form/technique negatively impacts one stat, and another doesn't, it's literally proof positive that they amplify ki differently, just like with SSJ Grade 3 and regular SSJ.
And it's not just "stamina" that's negatively affected by Kaio-ken overuse, it's bodily integrity in general.
And what "different functionality" is there to Kaio-ken? I thought you people all agreed that it was all "just ki amplification" in the end? Why is there a sudden distinction being made now?
refuses to clarify further despite me giving substantiation as to why I wasn'tIt is.
Because clearly you have a hard time wrapping your head around the idea that there are two forces acting upon trunks's speed in grade 3 (if i steelmanned the idea it increased ki), the ki amp which would acting for it/increasing it, and the muscle mass, which is clearly greater, acting against it, and the sum total of both of these "forces" acting upon this speed is negative/decreasing it.All you did was repeat what you previously said, just with different wording. There was nothing new you brought up, so there was nothing further to refute.
Calling your argument fallacious means i'm not calm? Thats very interesting.Calm down, son.
??????Stop verbally fellating Seth the Pedo, for Pete's sake.
I was responding to this, just so that everyone has a little bit more context. It's referring to Seth the Programmer, who had extensive pedophilia accusations made against him a while back.Imagine .. just imagine someone debating like that against Seth XD
Stop verbally fellating Seth the Pedo, for Pete's sake.