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The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier

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Crabwhale said:
Deescalate the hostility here or this thread is getting locked. This is a warning. This doesn't take a lot of effort people, if you're getting mad just take a break from the screen and calm down.
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To be honest, you should just look or delete this thread, it is getting nowhere because of the repetitive arguments
 
true, it is very hard to argue with super saiyan being a times ten multiplier at times
although I'd rather it be formally rejected than deleted
 
@sanicspood @SuperStar Laugh about it in your damn Discord channels, don’t post shit on the actual thread.

Thread isn’t getting closed until it resolves, drop that fantasy ASAP, more likely scenario is people getting banned for being jerks, or by my personal suggestion, and I’d prefer if @Antvasima responds to this, threadbanning users who are being unnecessarily toxic.

In general can anyone other than LITERALLY A SINGLE USER defend their position on the thread support side? This is just a recipe for said one user to get cornered and subsequently lose it. If you join a thread and stated an opinion, you should at least STAND BY this opinion. Otherwise you’re as valid a vote as some 5 message new account going ”I agree” and then never posting on the wiki again.

And the opposing side, can you stop losing your ******* marbles for 5 damn seconds? Until this thing gets to a subjective distinction, which it hasn’t I’d bet, vote counts don’t ******* matter. Stop complaining about “OMFG STAFFF HIVEMIND DISAGREEEEEEDD AAAAAAAAAAAAA BIAS BIAS BIAS MY DISCORD GROUP WAS RIGHTTTTT” and making 15 posts with respect to that, you start to sound like a parody of YOURSELF. If you’ve made an objective point, guess what??? It stays. Half the staff team can be against you, but it still stays, and as long as it stays, thread can’t be applied. So please stop. Make your points’ end it there. Jesus.
 
Malomtek said:
Trunks wasn't particularly angrier when he transformed to Super Saiyan Grade 3 than he was in any other point in the Android/Cell Saga.
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Excuse me but what? Yah you are right. He is probably happy and celebrating that his father was nearly killed in front of him. Sorry my bad. And the fact that he failed to protect his future doesn't bother him either I guess. Bro but in all seriousness, he looks extremely angry to me. Even Krillin was scared.


Malomtek said:
"Rage boosted" SSJ Grade 3 Trunks is nothing more than headcanon (a term you people love throwing around a lot).
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So explain to me how Grade 3 Trunks kept up with Perfect Cell speedwise when Grade 2 couldn't if Grade 3 downgrades your speed. I am waiting.

Oh and please don't play the " he was holding back and testing his skill"- card. He was sandbagging his PL at the same point the entire time.
 
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The_Impress said:
In general can anyone other than LITERALLY A SINGLE USER defend their position on the thread support side? This is just a recipe for said one user to get cornered and subsequently lose it. If you join a thread and stated an opinion, you should at least STAND BY this opinion. Otherwise you’re as valid a vote as some 5 message new account going ”I agree” and then never posting on the wiki again.

And the opposing side, can you stop losing your ******* marbles for 5 damn seconds? Until this thing gets to a subjective distinction, which it hasn’t I’d bet, vote counts don’t ******* matter. Stop complaining about “OMFG STAFFF HIVEMIND DISAGREEEEEEDD AAAAAAAAAAAAA BIAS BIAS BIAS MY DISCORD GROUP WAS RIGHTTTTT” and making 15 posts with respect to that, you start to sound like a parody of YOURSELF. If you’ve made an objective point, guess what??? It stays. Half the staff team can be against you, but it still stays, and as long as it stays, thread can’t be applied. So please stop. Make your points’ end it there. Jesus.
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Actually we are waiting for additional Staff input. AKM-Sama made his points and so did we. As Gilad or whoever it was said, Nullflower's comment summarizes the opposing sides points pretty well.

Malomtek on the other hand keeps bringing up irrelevant things like Grade 3 , SSJ being 10x multiplier to this thread and arguing things like Kaioken and SSJ multiplying differently due to one draining more stamina effectively getting on everyone's nerves.

Here is Null's comment btw.
Nullflowerblush said:
As amusing as it would be for Dragon Ball to lose a couple of zeroes on their speed "scaling", this is a negative.
Frieza claimed that a mere half of his full power would be enough to reduce Goku, whom he already deduced hid away extra strength from him, into cosmic dust. Goku clapped back, calling his bluff, before immediately realizing Frieza was telling the truth. He already knew that Frieza was leagues ahead of him, even before he used the Kaio-ken x20, so the claim that "Goku expected his Kaio-ken to work against Frieza because he was in shock when it failed" is not viable — it relies on the idea that Goku unleashed his Kaio-ken x20 in an attempt to test the validity of the statement, but Goku figured out the statement was true a whole chapter in advance.

Also, when you mention the fact that Goku "experienced the beating from him [first-hand]", to me, that seems to suggest that you think Frieza was putting his all into pummeling Goku, but he was really just toying with Goku, seemingly ultra-casually, too, even after Goku employed his tenfold Kaio-ken. After witnessing this, Piccolo then proceeded to comment on the difference between their powers, claiming that "There was too great a discrepancy between their respective reserves", which further solidifies the idea that Goku was completely helpless against him, even taking into consideration his techniques and his hidden power. And, soon after, Piccolo follows that up by asserting that Frieza was more powerful than any of them could have imagined. On top of that, Goku was not even sure that a twenty-fold Kaio-ken would prove any useful — the whole thing was a gamble — so once again, no, Goku did not attack Frieza with the intent of proving him wrong, as he already knew Frieza was an impossible opponent, he did it because he had no other options; he simply hoped Frieza was bluffing — "Please!! Let him be bluffing this time!!!".
When Goku rushed him with Kaio-ken x20, he caught Frieza off-guard, but Frieza then reacted to both of his attacks just as quickly as he launched them, proving they were at the very least comparable here; although, it made obvious both in these panels — as he managed to easily zip out of Goku's way when he attempted to punch him the second time — and in the ensuing defense that Frieza poses that he was the superior one here, as he blocked the attack with one arm and was barely harmed, with his hand being really only the part of his body scathed. But, once Goku became a Super Saiyan, even after his energy dropped as a result of his Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha — which is backed up by the fact that he has been exhausting himself all throughout this battle — he managed to effortlessly blitz Frieza and casually side-step his Death Beams, a feat that Frieza considered impossible.

So, in terms of speed, "SSJ Goku >>> 50% Frieza (serious) >~ 20x KK Goku".

And then, after that, as we all know, a maximum power Frieza was capable of taking the Super Saiyan Goku on on an "equal" playing field; Goku was still superior to him by a margin, but Frieza held his own, something he could not even dream of doing moments before, which means now, "SSJ Goku > 100% Frieza >>> 50% Frieza (serious) >~ 20x KK Goku".

Outside of all of this, the databooks also use the term "battle power" when referencing the multiplier, with "battle power" being the measurement of the size of one's Ki (i.e., their Power Level), which influences all of their combat abilities.
Click to expand...
 
Well Trunks did partially angry when he transform into Grade 3, but problem is, Goku said to Gohan HBT that Grade 3 bulking his muscle too much thus speed got sacrificed and he specific about that form, and he also said both him and Gohan should focus on mastering the initial SSJ and eliminate the emotional "unstable" when they need to transform into SSJ and make the form is as natural like base form as possible
 
What the...

Please stop talking about SSJ only being a 10x multiplier. This was only about whether or not SSJ boosts power and speed the same way based on Freeza's statement of using half of his power. The 10x thing is a complete derail.
 
AKM sama said:
What the...

Please stop talking about SSJ only being a 10x multiplier. This was only about whether or not SSJ boosts power and speed the same way based on Freeza's statement of using half of his power. The 10x thing is a complete derail.
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That and another fact that he (Malomtek) was arguing about how Kaio-Ken is not linear based on a few scenes which do nothing to debunk it despite both the story and guidebooks stating and showing just how blatantly linear it is.
 
I am fine with Impress' suggestion of preventing members who are unnecessarily toxic from responding to this thread anymore.

Also, Seth hasn't treated me well and fairly in the past, to say the least, but calling him a pedophile seems far too extreme and has nothing to do with this discussion.
 
Well, there being a document with accusations is not remotely the same thing as proving it in a court of law, and even so, we should try to avoid directly provoking other communities as much as possible.
 
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@Malomtek Well,
The_Impress said:
@sanicspood @SuperStar Laugh about it in your damn Discord channels, don’t post shit on the actual thread.

Thread isn’t getting closed until it resolves, drop that fantasy ASAP, more likely scenario is people getting banned for being jerks, or by my personal suggestion, and I’d prefer if @Antvasima responds to this, threadbanning users who are being unnecessarily toxic.

In general can anyone other than LITERALLY A SINGLE USER defend their position on the thread support side? This is just a recipe for said one user to get cornered and subsequently lose it. If you join a thread and stated an opinion, you should at least STAND BY this opinion. Otherwise you’re as valid a vote as some 5 message new account going ”I agree” and then never posting on the wiki again.

And the opposing side, can you stop losing your ******* marbles for 5 damn seconds? Until this thing gets to a subjective distinction, which it hasn’t I’d bet, vote counts don’t ******* matter. Stop complaining about “OMFG STAFFF HIVEMIND DISAGREEEEEEDD AAAAAAAAAAAAA BIAS BIAS BIAS MY DISCORD GROUP WAS RIGHTTTTT” and making 15 posts with respect to that, you start to sound like a parody of YOURSELF. If you’ve made an objective point, guess what??? It stays. Half the staff team can be against you, but it still stays, and as long as it stays, thread can’t be applied. So please stop. Make your points’ end it there. Jesus.
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Wow Chill lol😅😅😅
 
I've made my position here, it seems like there's a lot of trouble going around so I'm just gonna lurk around and see if the agreement side has more points
 
The_Impress said:
And the opposing side, can you stop losing your ******* marbles for 5 damn seconds? Until this thing gets to a subjective distinction, which it hasn’t I’d bet, vote counts don’t ******* matter. Stop complaining about “OMFG STAFFF HIVEMIND DISAGREEEEEEDD AAAAAAAAAAAAA BIAS BIAS BIAS MY DISCORD GROUP WAS RIGHTTTTT” and making 15 posts with respect to that
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That was very uncalled for. Most of the conversations from both side was pretty civil usually. Maybe a few people acted a bit wrong, but these cases are very few and far between
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
That was very uncalled for. Most of the conversations from both side was pretty civil usually. Maybe a few people acted a bit wrong, but these cases are very few and far between
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I've seen fairly many post unnecessarily critical for no reasons, making presumptions and whatnot. Can even point them out exact.

Just because it isn't majority but instead a vocal minority, doesn't make it any less valid to address said vocal minority :v

If it doesn't apply to you, ignore it. You can recognise what are general statements and what are specific statements. I'm not reporting anyone currently, so I can make generalizations in my warnings.
 
Vietthai96 said:
But your comment was too harsh and extreme, and it in my opinion was too generalize toward everyone attend this thread
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...I mean, you can recognise what's applicable and not applicable. I didn't tag specific users, and if you're planning to act these sentiments weren't transparently stated you're lying to yourself. I jist think you're kinda being ignorant of the context said message was made in.

Anyways this is derailment, if you think I am showcasing poor conduct, take it up to HR rather than discussing on thread
 
100% frieza still can react n can hit ssj goku multiple times even though they have 30m pl difference. that like 0 pl guy vs kkx10 goku.
 
The_Impress said:
...I mean, you can recognise what's applicable and not applicable. I didn't tag specific users, and if you're planning to act these sentiments weren't transparently stated you're lying to yourself. I jist think you're kinda being ignorant of the context said message was made in.

Anyways this is derailment, if you think I am showcasing poor conduct, take it up to HR rather than discussing on thread
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What i mean is that you too extreme with wording, and i don't think you showcasing poor conduct, you did your job and i understand and respect that. That all
 
SirAlex09 said:
Excuse me but what? Yah you are right. He is probably happy and celebrating that his father was nearly killed in front of him. Sorry my bad. And the fact that he failed to protect his future doesn't bother him either I guess. Bro but in all seriousness, he looks extremely angry to me. Even Krillin was scared.



So explain to me how Grade 3 Trunks kept up with Perfect Cell speedwise when Grade 2 couldn't if Grade 3 downgrades your speed. I am waiting.

Oh and please don't play the " he was holding back and testing his skill"- card. He was sandbagging his PL at the same point the entire time.
Click to expand...

The video just looks like Future Trunks couldn't stand there as Cell moves to kill his dad. No particular "rage boost" there.

And how can you tell me to not play the "Cell was holding back" card, and then immediately after that say that Cell was "sandbagging" his real power level? It's ridiculous.

SirAlex09 said:
Actually we are waiting for additional Staff input. AKM-Sama made his points and so did we. As Gilad or whoever it was said, Nullflower's comment summarizes the opposing sides points pretty well.

Malomtek on the other hand keeps bringing up irrelevant things like Grade 3 , SSJ being 10x multiplier to this thread and arguing things like Kaioken and SSJ multiplying differently due to one draining more stamina effectively getting on everyone's nerves.

Here is Null's comment btw.
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The 10x SSJ multiplier I literally just used as an example of how one "ki multiplication" can work differently than another "ki multiplication", in the same way Mastered SSJ has the same multiplier as regular SSJ, yet the power boost is so much higher than either SSJ Grade 2 or 3.

Grade 3 is entirely relevant here, and I was pretty consistent in stating that Kaio-ken damages far more than just stamina, it damages bodily integrity in general.

KLOL506 said:
That and another fact that he (Malomtek) was arguing about how Kaio-Ken is not linear based on a few scenes which do nothing to debunk it despite both the story and guidebooks stating and showing just how blatantly linear it is.
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Dude, if you're going to take shots at me, at least tag me while doing so.

I didn't say Kaio-ken was "nonlinear" based on whatever scenes you think I brought up, I said Kaio-ken was nonlinear because a 1.5x power boost, causing a 1.333x power differential (going by numbered power levels), should not be enough to completely overpower somebody. But when Goku kicked it up a notch from Kaio-ken x 2 to Kaio-ken x 3, the Kaio-ken technique was suddenly enough to completely overpower Vegeta, when it failed miserably before.
 
Malomtek said:
I didn't say Kaio-ken was "nonlinear" based on whatever scenes you think I brought up, I said Kaio-ken was nonlinear because a 1.5x power boost, causing a 1.333x power differential (going by numbered power levels), should not be enough to completely overpower somebody. But when Goku kicked it up a notch from Kaio-ken x 2 to Kaio-ken x 3, the Kaio-ken technique was suddenly enough to completely overpower Vegeta, when it failed miserably before.
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That is becasue even a small difference in power between the opponent means a lot in Dragon Ball. For example: Vegeta with 24,000 power easily overpowered and killed Kiwi and Dodoria, with the former having a power of 18,000 and the latter about 20,000-22,000 I think

Frieza handily lost to Super Saiyan Goku, when Frieza has a power of 120,000,000 while Goku was 150,000,000. The difference was even smaller than that of Kaioken times 2 and times 3. The reason for why it happens is because the AP advantage needed for a character to one shot another character is small in comparison to other verses, or the 7.5 times used in VS matches (that have characters from different verses)

None of that contradicts the kaioken, and the boost is still linear
 
Malomtek said:
And how can you tell me to not play the "Cell was holding back" card, and then immediately after that say that Cell was "sandbagging" his real power level? It's ridiculous.
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My bad for not claryifing what I meant. I didn't wanna hear you say that he was only holding back against Grade 3 Trunks and else serious.
Malomtek said:
The video just looks like Future Trunks couldn't stand there as Cell moves to kill his dad. No particular "rage boost" there.
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? XDDD. He was angry at being powerless. That's pretty consistent with his character.
 
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Malomtek said:
The 10x SSJ multiplier I literally just used as an example of how one "ki multiplication" can work differently than another "ki multiplication", in the same way Mastered SSJ has the same multiplier as regular SSJ, yet the power boost is so much higher than either SSJ Grade 2 or 3.
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MSSJ has a higher multiplier. It's just unknown. Also the second part contradicts itself. The power boost ( = total Ki amount at the start) can't be higher if the multiplier is the same.
You probably meant to say that due to Ki control Mssj has a better performance but even then it would have been wrong because Trunks and Vegeta could feel that his power has risen way way above his previous peak and could tell that he managed to overcome the SSJ transformation'S limit
 
MSSJ doesn't have higher multiplier, what the hell. Goku said to Gohan that they should focus on normal SSJ because of it balance between power and speed, train to eliminate emotion unstable (rage) when transform, thus have more efficiency, Gohan and Goku > Vegeta and Trunks is because they train more thus their base was higher, Vegeta and Trunks was too focus on attaining higher state
 
Yeah it's Grade 3 with the higher multiplier. In fact it's about 10 times stronger than SSJ Grade 1 or Grade 2 according to El Manga Legendario
 
Vietthai96 said:
MSSJ doesn't have higher multiplier, what the hell. Goku said to Gohan that they should focus on normal SSJ because of it balance between power and speed, train to eliminate emotion unstable (rage) when transform, thus have more efficiency, Gohan and Goku > Vegeta and Trunks is because they train more thus their base was higher, Vegeta and Trunks was too focus on attaining higher state
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Idk about that. Sure all the stamina consumption and emotion part but Vegeta later mastered SSJ as well.

When Cabba and Vegeta fought , they were equally strong in base.




When both fought each other in SSJ, Vegeta's SSJ form showed a higher Power output to the point that he didn't even take dmg, when he was remotely serious.



In one of Null's linked sources, it states you need emit Ki twice the size of your opponent to negate your opponents attack.

The fight wasn't long enough for Cabba to be stamina drained. Here we see best the difference between untrained SSJ and MSSJ.


But I can see your point. Higher Base form makes sense as well. Since it is a different topic altogether , I would avoid debating. ( I found some sources that say it "draws out power of the Super Saiyan to it's limits" which suggest a higher power output ( apparently Daizenshuu 2 according to the Dragonballwikia), and 1 spanish guide that says it has the strength of Grade 3 but none of the disadvantage
NKHfArm.jpeg


But the evidence is fishy which I agree with.
 
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StekFence said:
Exactly equal?
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Fixed the links. It was his words, not mine. Though I gotta agree that it doesn't look equal to me either XD But I will stop derailing it even further. We went from 10x multiplier ( Malomtek) to higher multiplier ( me).XDD One extreme to the other. I will concede on that point
 
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I suppose I could maybe say, Cabba is fractionally weaker than vegeta, so when they use multipliers, the difference becomes greater. Maybe
 
StekFence said:
I suppose I could maybe say, Cabba is fractionally weaker than vegeta, so when they use multipliers, the difference becomes greater. Maybe
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I don't think it'd work like that if the multiplier was the same, yes the number difference would be bigger but the difference proportional to their strength wouldn't change
 
I thought of it like this. Let’s say Cabs PL is 5. And Vegs is 6. X50 would give u Ssj cab at 250. But Vegs is 300. Decent diff.
 
I would recommend we stop debating about the MSSJ multiplier ( I already conceded) else I will get banned for trolling for bringing it into this CRT ..
 
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