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The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier

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AKM sama

AKM sama

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Currently we treat the Super Saiyan multiplier as being x50 for both, strength and speed.

The reason for this is because Freeza said that he was using 50% of his power and Kaioken x20 Goku was slightly weaker than him. Which means:

50% Freeza > Kaioken x20 Goku

So 100% Freeza should be stronger/faster than a hypothetical x40 Goku. And since SSJ Goku was slightly stronger/faster than 100% Freeza, it gives credence to the 50x multiplier for both, strength and speed.


Let's take a look again at the events and try to verify the validity of it.

(Note that the following excerpts come from Herms.)

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P2.3-6
Freeza: “You’re quite confident. But I’ve noticed that though you told me you’d fight seriously, you still have a considerable amount of power remaining…”
Goku: “So the jig’s up, huh?”
Freeza: “Even taking that into consideration, in my estimation… If I put out about 50%, that is to say, half of my maximum power, I'll be able to turn you into space dust..."

Here Freeza is saying that he only needs to use half of his maximum power to turn Goku into space dust. Note that Freeza is referring to power/strength here and is confident that he can beat Goku even while pulling back his punches.



Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P5.5
Context: after Freeza's "I can beat you with 50% of my power" line
Goku: “H-he’s…not bluffing…!”

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…”

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.4
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Kaio: “It-it’s no use…He’s too strong…To think that he’d be this [strong]…”

Chapter: 313 (DBZ 119), P6.1-2
Kuririn: “A-anyway, what’s Goku thinking…He’s starting to get one-sidedly beaten up…”
Piccolo: “He’s not thinking anything…It’s simply that Freeza’s true ability was outrageously greater than we or Goku expected…”

Here Goku was using Kaioken x10 and was still getting one-sidedly stomped. The only option left was to use kaioken x20.



Chapter: 313 (DBZ 119), P14.1
Context: after the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha doesn’t hurt Freeza much
Goku: “…! D-damn it all…!”

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P3.1-2
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Kuririn: “Un-unbelievable…Goku’s Kamehameha just now ought to have had outrageous power…So why did Freeza take hardly any damage…!?”
Gohan: “Fa-father’s ki has fallen a lot…”

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P1.3-4
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Goku: “Wh-what…! That didn’t effect him much…! S-so that wasn’t a bluff either…He really is only using half his power…”

Even Kaioken x20 Kamehameha was not able to do much damage to Freeza. But notice what Goku says at the end. "That didn’t effect him much…! S-so that wasn’t a bluff either…He really is only using half his power…”

This statement implies that Goku somewhat wanted to confirm whether Freeza was bluffing when he said he will only use half of his power/strength to beat up Goku. But when Freeza easily survived Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, he realized that Freeza wasn't lying and his real power far surpasses that. This realization would only come if Goku expected the Kamehameha to be strong enough to deal some considerable amount of damage, having first-hand experienced the beating from him.

Which means that Goku fired that Kamehameha, hoping that Freeza's half-power statement was only a bluff, and expecting his kamehameha to do some decent damage, making it somewhat stronger than the level of beating Freeza was giving him. But since Freeza easily survived it, it was confirmed that Freeza's real durability at that moment was greater than 50%, which made Goku realize that he wasn't bluffing and was just holding back his punches to beat up Goku before.



Long story short:

Kaioken x20 Goku's Kamehameha >= Half of Freeza's strength > Kaioken x10 Goku

Freeza was only pulling his punches back so as to use half of his strength. His actual power/durability at that moment was still above that, as indicated by him surviving something with almost no damage, and making Goku realize that he was really using only half of his strength.

The statement about using half of his power to turn Goku into space dust, only refers to strength. It doesn't say anything about using half of his speed/durability.

Full power Freeza should be 2x stronger than what he used to beat up Goku. And assuming Kaioken x20 Kamehameha was only a little stronger than half of Freeza's strength or roughly the same, SSJ Goku should also be a bit more than 2x stronger than his Kaioken x20 level. The 50x strength increase is plausible.

However, Freeza's max power being 2x greater than what he used to beat up Goku doesn't mean his speed also increases by a factor of 2. We don't treat statements like "I am using half of my power" as being valid for speed as well.

In conclusion, while SSJ being a 50x multiplier for strength makes sense, this has no reason to be applied to speed. Freeza's strength being twice at his max than what he used to beat up Goku doesn't mean he is twice as fast as well. All we can safely say is that SSJ at least provides a 20x speed boost as it is still faster than Kaioken x20.
 
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The additional context you've provided looks valid.

I think we'd definitely need stronger evidence for a 50x speed multiplier if we wanted to keep using that.
 
This entire argument its based on the assumption that all Frieza statements of using half of his power where only specifically referring to his physical strength and destructive power, while completely skipping his speed.

Which go in contradiction with what we see in the Manga, 50% Frieza could barely keep up with Goku after obtaining his SSj1 Form, yet we see that after reaching his full power he was actually capable to hit him and even dodge his attacks as well, despire be overall weaker/slower than him, and only after Frieza start to get tired its when Goku was able to overwhelm him again, which its why he didn't want to continue the fight after that.

This wouldn't have happen if what you think was true, as Goku SSj1 would have continue to outspeed him during the entire fight without getting hit once, so no its clear that his statements where referring to his all his stats including speed, as Ki increases always increase the characters speeds too.

As it is show many times over, with Vegeta vs Cui as prime example.
 
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Yeah I disagree with this for Stephano's reasoning too. 100% Frieza actually kept up with SSJ Goku, while 50% Frieza was utterly blitzed by him.

Also, as I said, Frieza actually blocked the KK20 Kamehameha with one arm while at 50%, strongly implying he was stronger than Goku's kaioken times 20
 
As amusing as it would be for Dragon Ball to lose a couple of zeroes on their speed "scaling", this is a negative.
AKM sama said:
This statement implies that Goku somewhat wanted to confirm whether Freeza was bluffing when he said he will only use half of his power/strength to beat up Goku. But when Freeza easily survived Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, he realized that Freeza wasn't lying and his real power far surpasses that. This realization would only come if Goku expected the Kamehameha to be strong enough to deal some considerable amount of damage, having first-hand experienced the beating from him.

Which means that Goku fired that Kamehameha, hoping that Freeza's half-power statement was only a bluff, and expecting his kamehameha to do some decent damage, making it somewhat stronger than the level of beating Freeza was giving him. But since Freeza easily survived it, it was confirmed that Freeza's real durability at that moment was greater than 50%, which made Goku realize that he wasn't bluffing and was just holding back his punches to beat up Goku before.
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Frieza claimed that a mere half of his full power would be enough to reduce Goku, whom he already deduced hid away extra strength from him, into cosmic dust. Goku clapped back, calling his bluff, before immediately realizing Frieza was telling the truth. He already knew that Frieza was leagues ahead of him, even before he used the Kaio-ken x20, so the claim that "Goku expected his Kaio-ken to work against Frieza because he was in shock when it failed" is not viable — it relies on the idea that Goku unleashed his Kaio-ken x20 in an attempt to test the validity of the statement, but Goku figured out the statement was true a whole chapter in advance.

Also, when you mention the fact that Goku "experienced the beating from him [first-hand]", to me, that seems to suggest that you think Frieza was putting his all into pummeling Goku, but he was really just toying with Goku, seemingly ultra-casually, too, even after Goku employed his tenfold Kaio-ken. After witnessing this, Piccolo then proceeded to comment on the difference between their powers, claiming that "There was too great a discrepancy between their respective reserves", which further solidifies the idea that Goku was completely helpless against him, even taking into consideration his techniques and his hidden power. And, soon after, Piccolo follows that up by asserting that Frieza was more powerful than any of them could have imagined. On top of that, Goku was not even sure that a twenty-fold Kaio-ken would prove any useful — the whole thing was a gamble — so once again, no, Goku did not attack Frieza with the intent of proving him wrong, as he already knew Frieza was an impossible opponent, he did it because he had no other options; he simply hoped Frieza was bluffing — "Please!! Let him be bluffing this time!!!".
AKM sama said:
However, Freeza's max power being 2x greater than what he used to beat up Goku doesn't mean his speed also increases by a factor of 2. We don't treat statements like "I am using half of my power" as being valid for speed as well.
Click to expand...
When Goku rushed him with Kaio-ken x20, he caught Frieza off-guard, but Frieza then reacted to both of his attacks just as quickly as he launched them, proving they were at the very least comparable here; although, it made obvious both in these panels — as he managed to easily zip out of Goku's way when he attempted to punch him the second time — and in the ensuing defense that Frieza poses that he was the superior one here, as he blocked the attack with one arm and was barely harmed, with his hand being really only the part of his body scathed. But, once Goku became a Super Saiyan, even after his energy dropped as a result of his Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha — which is backed up by the fact that he has been exhausting himself all throughout this battle — he managed to effortlessly blitz Frieza and casually side-step his Death Beams, a feat that Frieza considered impossible.

So, in terms of speed, "SSJ Goku >>> 50% Frieza (serious) >~ 20x KK Goku".

And then, after that, as we all know, a maximum power Frieza was capable of taking the Super Saiyan Goku on on an "equal" playing field; Goku was still superior to him by a margin, but Frieza held his own, something he could not even dream of doing moments before, which means now, "SSJ Goku > 100% Frieza >>> 50% Frieza (serious) >~ 20x KK Goku".

Outside of all of this, the databooks also use the term "battle power" when referencing the multiplier, with "battle power" being the measurement of the size of one's Ki (i.e., their Power Level), which influences all of their combat abilities.
 
I'm inclined to agree with Stefanno and NullFire here. It's contradicted by the fact that in SSJ form, he was blitzing 50% Frieza without even trying where as 100% Frieza was able to semi keep up with his SSJ form. I agree that every other "Half my power" statement would only refer to AP and not speed, but in this case, 100% Frieza is clearly a lot faster than 50% Frieza.
 
100% Frieza is clearly faster but there is no clear evidence that it’s proportional to his AP, as that’s not a consistent thing in DB.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
100% Frieza is clearly faster but there is no clear evidence that it’s proportional to his AP, as that’s not a consistent thing in DB.
Click to expand...
We see Frieza from getting outpace by Goku SSj1 to be able to somewhat keep up with him, a 2x speed increase its more than reasonable here.

Yes we can't assume that Frieza Saga Goku its millions of times faster than Namek Saga KKx4 Goku due of the jumped in Tiers, but that is still not a good reason to fully restrict the Multipliers to just AP, not when we know that Ki Increases tend to equally affect all physical stats as proven by the Kaioken itself.

At that point we might as well drop the entire multiplier, either we fully apply as it is suppost to be or we don't use it at all, there is no middle end.
 
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The downgrade runs on the assumption that "power" in DB only refers to AP, when in fact, in most cases it refers to all stats/Ki. Also increasing your ki means all of your physical and ki reserve gets increased.
So on short, I completely disagree with this thread.
Also, Power, Ki, and battle power/power level refers to all stats, unless when it's pointed out that it doesn't.
 
Orange said:
when in fact, in most cases it refers to all stats/Ki
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Well, no.

Whenever "power" and "speed" are used in the same context, they are usually separated, like when Goku is explaining the Kaio-ken... or when the Dragon Ball Official Site is explaining the Kaio-ken, or when Vegeta is ranting off on Cui.

"Power" and "speed" are two different attributes, but they are trained and raised simultaneously as the size of one's Ki increases. In some cases, though, one's physical disabilities impair their statistics, with the most notable example being Third Grade Super Saiyan, which raises the user's Ki and, thus, power, but strips them of their speed due to their muscles being bulked up to their limit.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Well, no.

Whenever "power" and "speed" are used in the same context, they are usually separated, like when Goku is explaining the Kaio-ken... or when the Dragon Ball Official Site is explaining the Kaio-ken, or when Vegeta is ranting off on Cui.

"Power" and "speed" are two different attributes, but they are trained and raised simultaneously as the size of one's Ki increases. In some cases, though, one's physical disabilities impair their statistics, with the most notable example being Third Grade Super Saiyan, which raises the user's Ki and, thus, power, but strips them of their speed due to their muscles being bulked up to their limit.
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damn it. I actually agree with you- :<
 
Not saying all AP increases increase speed accordingly, but Kaioken literally does both equally. And realistically, given the KE = 0.5 * M * V^2 it would imply it takes an X^2 AP multiplier to multiply speed by X, but Kaioken clearly does not follow this formula. But increasing strength has always meant in increase in speed to some extent regardless. And it really doesn't get much more blatant than Frieza's example. And Kaizenshuu even calls Super Saiyan basically the same thing as a Kaioken x50 that uses up less energy consumption and lasts longer than Kaioken.
 
Full power Freeza being faster than his suppressed form doesn't mean he gets exactly 2x faster. An increase in ki meaning increase in strength, durability and speed doesn't mean that these increases are in equal proportions in all departments (that is only true for kaioken which is accepted as being linear for all stats because it was blatantly stated).

This is common and currently accepted knowledge, and enough to address most points being brought up in disagreement.
 
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It doesn't. And even if it does, Kanzenhuu is not an official source.

I also forgot to mention earlier that some people agreed with Nullflower's point, which also strengthens the OP. If Goku knew that Freeza was not bluffing about using only half of his power to beat up Goku, that is only possible if Goku sensed more power coming from Freeza then what he was experiencing when he was getting beaten into a pulp. Which means that while Freeza was only pulling his punches to exert half of his strength on Goku, his actual power level at that point was more than that. That's the same as the original point of Freeza operating at more power overall at the time but only using half of his max in his attacks because he was holding back.

But the main point still remains that a 50x multiplier in strength =/= 50x multiplier in speed. And Freeza increasing his strength by 2x =/= 2x increase in speed.
 
Yeah I agree that we shouldn't really assume that just because it's a 2x AP amp that it's also a 2x speed amp. It's definitely faster for sure, but not in a quantifiable metric.
 
AKM sama said:
But the main point still remains that a 50x multiplier in strength =/= 50x multiplier in speed.
Click to expand...
Nullflowerblush said:
Outside of all of this, the databooks also use the term "battle power" when referencing the multiplier, with "battle power" being the measurement of the size of one's Ki (i.e., their Power Level), which influences all of their combat abilities.
Click to expand...
Nullflowerblush said:
i'm an idiot
forgot to mention this
Click to expand...
It is established early in the saga that when one's power increases, their speed increases linearly. In Dragon Ball, logically, a fifty-times increase to strength also entails a fifty-times increase to speed.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
It is established early in the saga that when one's power increases, their speed increases linearly. In Dragon Ball, logically, a fifty-times increase to strength also entails a fifty-times increase to speed.
Click to expand...
It doesn't say linearly. Again, this is common knowledge that when ki increases, strength, speed and durability also increase with it, normally. But the relation is not linear and they don't have to increase by the exact same amount. It never was, except for the kaioken. And that has been the currently accepted knowledge for years now. In DB, a 50x increase in strength never explicitly means a 50x increase in speed and never has. You'd have to change how Dragon Ball works in the wiki if you want to argue that point, but it isn't for this thread.
 
To be honest, both side is not totally wrong or right, because we are in a gray area, it is definitely increases both power and speed, no denying that, but we also not sure that it is x50 or not; and Super Saiyan is not Kaioken where it specific about x2 or x10 or x20. So i think about a compromised with At least (insert speed), likely higher or likely (insert speed).

Well but i definitely it way more than x20
 
I'm quite confused on the purpose of this thread, is that SSJ isn't 50x times increase? Even tho 50% freiza was stronger and faster than kk20 Goku, and 100% freeze would be 2 times faster than that, thus in order for goku to be stronger and faster than frieza, he needs something 2.5 times stronger than KK20, which is exactly the multiplier of SSJ. Or the fact that daizenshuu stated that ssj increases your battle power by 50x. And since battle power refers to your physical and ki attributes, it would mean his Speed, AP and dura went 50x.
Where is the confusion?
 
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Orange said:
I'm quite confused on the purpose of this thread, is that SSJ isn't 50x times increase?
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The CRT its trying to argue that the 50x times increase of the SSj1 should only be limited to AP while for Speed should only be assumed to be above 20x times via scaling from KKx20 and nothing else.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
"Power" and "speed" are two different attributes, but they are trained and raised simultaneously as the size of one's Ki increases. In some cases, though, one's physical disabilities impair their statistics, with the most notable example being Third Grade Super Saiyan, which raises the user's Ki and, thus, power, but strips them of their speed due to their muscles being bulked up to their limit.
Click to expand...
Those are just the few outliers such, and as you say the two are still correlated, increases of Power/Ki always corrisponde to increases of Speed.
 
Stefano4444 said:
The CRT its trying to argue that the 50x times increase of the SSj1 should only be limited to AP while for Speed should only be assumed to be above 20x times via scaling from KKx20 and nothing else.
Click to expand...
Why wouldn't it apply for speed, when we see it making goku faster to blitz 100% frieza, or the fact that it states that ssj makes your battle power 50x more powerful [battle power= power level= ki level= all physical and ki abilities , thus making your battle power/Ki 50x stronger and bigger, would make all of your physical and ki abilities 50x more powerful, durable and faster]. Heck didn't goku in his fight against the ginyu force raise his aura/Ki in split seconds to blitz and one shots them?
 
AKM sama said:
But the main point still remains that a 50x multiplier in strength =/= 50x multiplier in speed. And Freeza increasing his strength by 2x =/= 2x increase in speed.
Click to expand...
Again you assume that he was 50% statements were only referring to just physical strength and destructive power, but this prove wrong by 100% Frieza show to have got faster as well, everything points to 50% Frieza was only using half his speed.

You can keep saying that nothing suggest that 100% Frieza got precisely 2x faster, but the same can be say with AP, how do you know if 100% Frieza got precisely 2x stronger as well?

And no, jumps between tiers due of feats/scaling are not solid evidence for justify multipliers.
 
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