The slave knight fights the ashen one once more

[Peppersalt43]

Guts but not really : 0
Ashen One but not really : 0
Incon : 0

Phoenix Knight, Homura and Gael with Dark Soul used
Speed equalized
Fight takes place in Gael's boss plain, 30 meters apart
Mystic Flame Knight has prior knowledge

More Puzzle and Dragons match because why not

 

[Comiphorous]

holy **** thats a shit ton of keys wtf.

 

[Peppersalt43]

holy **** thats a shit ton of keys wtf.

This here is the last key. Don't worry

 

[Comiphorous]

This here is the last key. Don't worry

cool

so gael has the speed advantage of drawing natural lightning down thats faster than anyone else, has a LS advantage, skill advantage and intelligence advantage, aswell as infinite stamina.

 

[XitSign]

holy **** thats a shit ton of keys wtf.

You're telling me...I genuinely wish PADZ hadn't overcomplicated these characters, they had the strangest hardon for making all the Mystic Knights these 'jack of all trades' that can be anything you want...

Guts but not really : 0
Ashen One but not really : 0
Incon : 0

Super Mystic Flame Knight and Gael with Dark Soul used
Speed equalized
Fight takes place in Gael's boss plain, 30 meters apart

More Puzzle and Dragons match because why not

You really love your Mystic Knights, don't ya? Unfortunately that Key probably shouldn't be used.

Both Reincarnated Burning Phoenix Knight, Homura and Super Mystic Flame Knight are 'reincarnations' and that entire concept had a retcon recently, they almost certainly are getting Tier 8 and Tier 6 downgrades respectively, it's just a matter of ANOTHER crt... None of the other keys should be changing though, they're free game.

However, even so, Ressurection and Reliant Immortality. What can characters without negations for those even do? Is there a wincon here even if we change keys?

 

[Peppersalt43]

What can characters without negations for those even do?

Uh, don't these guys have power null?

 

[XitSign]

Uh, don't these guys have power null?

They do, but most PAD power nulls are either for stopping characters from activating their active skills or their passive skills. In general.

It's probably a NLF to say they can stop spesific types of Immortality with generic Power Null like that though.

If the Immortalities are combat applicable I don't think any member of this monster family has an answer. Maybe one of these keys has an incap hax, but I think win via Death is off the table here

 

[Comiphorous]

However, even so, Ressurection and Reliant Immortality. What can characters without negations for those even do? Is there a wincon here even if we change keys?

Gael gets BFR'd if he gets killed, respawning at Cathedral of the deep.

(technically he could use his summon sign to teleport over since he does warp over if you go too far away from him)

 

[Peppersalt43]

If the Immortalities are combat applicable I don't think any member of this monster family has an answer. Maybe one of these keys has an incap hax, but I think win via Death is off the table here

OK. Which High 4-C key has a notable incap hax?

 

[XitSign]

Gael gets BFR'd if he gets killed, respawning at Cathedral of the deep.

(technically he could use his summon sign to teleport over since he does warp over if you go too far away from him)

I think that means that the current arena favors him too much then, if he can keep warping back with the Summon Signs, the only way to give the Flame Knight family a chance is a location he can't warp back from post Death.

Also that's the resurrection, but does the Reliant Immortality stop him from dying at all? Or is that not an issue for this BFR possiblity?

OK. Which High 4-C key has a notable incap hax?

Checking them both...neither. Neither have any incap hax.

And thanks to Type 2 Immortality and Infinite Stamina together, KO seems either impossible or unrealistically improbable.

So the only possible wincon and not just getting endlessly outlasted is the fight needs to take place somewhere that Gael can't teleport back to upon death, if that's possible. Otherwise I think this would be an Immortality hax stomp.

 

[Comiphorous]

I think that means that the current arena favors him too much then, if he can keep warping back with the Summon Signs, the only way to give the Flame Knight family a chance is a location he can't warp back from post Death.

Also that's the resurrection, but does the Reliant Immortality stop him from dying at all? Or is that not an issue for this BFR possiblity?

the reliant immortality is the resurrection. he relies on the undead curse to resurrect.

 

[XitSign]

the reliant immortality is the resurrection. he relies on the undead curse to resurrect.

Okay, so if the fight isn't in the DS verse, would he be unable to teleport back? If so, we have a fight.

If not Gael wins no matter what is argued for the Mystic Knight side.

 

[Comiphorous]

Okay, so if the fight isn't in the DS verse, would he be unable to teleport back? If so, we have a fight.

Unfortunately, even then he can come back using a soapstone, coming back as an invader.

 

[XitSign]

Unfortunately, even then he can come back using a soapstone, coming back as an invader.

Welp...guess this is a dead match then.

It doesn't matter if the Mystic Knight side can kill or not if the guy can keep coming back infinitely with infinite stamina. Unfortunately a stomp.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Unfortunately, even then he can come back using a soapstone, coming back as an invader.

Wait, Gael can do that? This is boss Gael I'm using here

 

[Comiphorous]

Wait, Gael can do that? This is boss Gael I'm using here

yeah, Gael has access to everything he did before he attained the dark soul, including his summoning sign. if he's BFR'd he'll realistically come back as an invader.

 

[Peppersalt43]

OK well then

You know something I realize that nobody has ever pointed out. The biggest problem with Dark Souls' undead is that they respawn perfectly fine on death, correct? Now, for ones with Immortality Type 2 and no estus, why can't we incap via dismemberment? It's not like he'll regrow his limbs or die from losing them, right?

 

[Comiphorous]

OK well then

You know something I realize that nobody has ever pointed out. The biggest problem with Dark Souls' undead is that they respawn perfectly fine on death, correct? Now, for ones with Immortality Type 2 and no estus, why can't we incap via dismemberment? It's not like he'll regrow his limbs or die from losing them, right?

thats because 9/10 a dark souls character out skills their opponent, and is never given that option.

 

[Peppersalt43]

thats because 9/10 a dark souls character out skills their opponent, and is never given that option.

A wincon is a wincon and besides, even without that immortality ability, outskill also takes away the option of killing

 

[Comiphorous]

A wincon is a wincon and besides, even without that immortality ability, outskill also takes away the option of killing

dark souls without type 2 immortality???

 

[Peppersalt43]

dark souls without type 2 immortality???

I didn't specify therefore I referred to all of them (Immortalities)

 

[Comiphorous]

I didn't specify therefore I referred to all of them (Immortalities)

still cursed.

dark souls without immortality is like madness combat without reality warping.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway lets wait for what @XitSign has to say about this new development

 

[XitSign]

I mean, that's kinda possible? Maybe? But it's a pretty tall order to even debate the idea of a character who doesn't understand why this character won't die, keeps teleporting back after death, and then working out that cutting them up juuuuuuust the right way is enough to not kill them but incapacitate them.

And all of this is even before actually debating AP, durability, abilities, ect to even prove that it's possible.

Plus type 2 isn't a universal immortality. Every character has their own unique thresholds, and we'd need to prove or work out if Gael really can survive as basically just like a torso or if that's breach his Type 2 and start the cycle all over again.

This is a lot of moving parts to try to find a ridiculously niche, maybe not even possible wincon...I'm skeptical we're saving this fight...

 

[Peppersalt43]

I'm skeptical we're saving this fight...

Debating whether or not a match is a stomp is a part of the debating experience. Don't give up just yet

But it's a pretty tall order to even debate the idea of a character who doesn't understand why this character won't die, keeps teleporting back after death, and then working out that cutting them up juuuuuuust the right way is enough to not kill them but incapacitate them.

Should I give prior knowledge?

 

[Comiphorous]

And all of this is even before actually debating AP, durability, abilities, ect to even prove that it's possible.

Plus type 2 isn't a universal immortality. Every character has their own unique thresholds, and we'd need to prove or work out if Gael really can survive as basically just like a torso or if that's breach his Type 2 and start the cycle all over again.

Does Flame Knight have any calcs for their ap? gael is baseline, as most dark souls god tiers. (the soul of cinder is the only character who is above baseline from massively upscaling from baseline from having atleast 6-8 (somewhere around there) of the lords of cinders within him, making him 6-8 'layers' above baseline.

 

[XitSign]

Debating whether or not a match is a stomp is a part of the debating experience. Don't give up just yet

Should I give prior knowledge?

I know it is but the only possible answer isn't a super good looking one so far, so my hopes aren't particularly high that we have a viable win condition for this one...The immortality combo here just doesn't seem to be playing nice for a brute-force, mostly haxless style fighter.

Possibly for prior knowledge? It might be the only reasonable way Horuma would even realize that's the only wincon, if it even works.

Does Flame Knight have any calcs for their ap? gael is baseline, as most dark souls god tiers. (the soul of cinder is the only character who is above baseline from massively upscaling from baseline from having atleast 6-8 (somewhere around there) of the lords of cinders within him, making him 6-8 'layers' above baseline.

Yeah, Phoenix Knight Homura (The PAD key) is in the ballpark of 1.08167x 10^43 Joules, about 3.39934003771x above baseline.

Burning Phoenix Knight, Homura is > 6.49002 x 10^43 Joules, so > 20.3960402263x baseline.

Both of those are also ignoring their ability to stat amp and temporary damage boost, realistically they'd both hit even higher than that.

And like I mentioned, both Reincarnated Reincarnated Burning Phoenix Knight, Homura and Super Mystic Flame Knight TECHNICALLY scale even higher right now, but only because those keys are out of date. They need to be dropped to Building and Country Level respectively but...You know how verse-wide cleanup projects are. Technically the last 3 for PAD are still in-progress, I shouldn't make it 4 until the first 3 are done...

 

[Peppersalt43]

Alright then, lets see what @FarerPurple has to say about this

 

[Comiphorous]

yeah, pretty sure Gael just abuses his resurrection and teleports/summons himself back over to try again and again until he outskills.

while it would take AGES, Flame knight could kill him enough times to make him hollow and proceed to kill him permanently, but I doubt that'd happen any time before gael kills him.

this fight will probably become redundant if they are moved down to country-level or something, but that's my two cents thrown in.

 

[Peppersalt43]

yeah, pretty sure Gael just abuses his resurrection and teleports/summons himself back over to try again and again until he outskills.

Um, didn't we try to establish this?

OK well then

You know something I realize that nobody has ever pointed out. The biggest problem with Dark Souls' undead is that they respawn perfectly fine on death, correct? Now, for ones with Immortality Type 2 and no estus, why can't we incap via dismemberment? It's not like he'll regrow his limbs or die from losing them, right?

 

[Comiphorous]

Um, didn't we try to establish this?

thats assuming gael just sits there letting him do that...? in no way should flame knight be able to run up and cut his legs off when gael has an LS and potential skill advantage.

 

[Peppersalt43]

thats assuming gael just sits there letting him do that...? in no way should flame knight be able to run up and cut his legs off when gael has an LS and potential skill advantage.

If he can't dismember he wouldn't be able to kill in the first place

So... I guess this is a stomp

 

[XitSign]

We could possible use one of the keys or scaling that's ridiculously higher than the baseline for however that 'hollowing' thing works...but then it's the exact opposite situation.

The Homura keys might have an AP advantage so high and bad that it's just endless oneshotting until the dismemberment or the 'hollowing' thing happens. That or Homura gets tired from endlessly oneshotting. All of Gael's advantages mean basically nothing if the gap is that big but...We're just trading one possible problem for another.

Immortality and resurrection and teleportation VS what looks like a stat difference so massive Gael shouldn't even bother fighting and just wait and see if Homura tires himself out. There's no clear, good win condition on this one it seems... I think we should just close the thread, no amount of trying other keys will seem to save this fight...

 

[Comiphorous]

We could possible use one of the keys or scaling that's ridiculously higher than the baseline for however that 'hollowing' thing works...but then it's the exact opposite situation.

i would say if your going to put them ridiculously high into large star level then use the soul of cinder, he lacks the resurrection bullshit, massive speed advantage with attacks and is higher into star level to even out the AP. all of that should balance it out and make it not a stomp