The detachable hero against the flame knight [REMAKE]

[Peppersalt43]

Lizard Girl : 0
Ashen One but not really : 0
Incon : 7

Reincarnated Burning Phoenix Knight, Homura used
Speed equalized
Starting distance is 30 meters

 

[Peppersalt43]

Ah, the first bump

 

[XitSign]

...Why do you do this to me? Remind me that the Mystic Knight profiles exist???

I have like 3 major CRTs I need to get around to, and the utter unreadable mess that is the Mystic Knights haunt my nightmares (Did you know since the last crt THEY GOT NEW EVOLUTIONS!? I HAVE TO ADD MORE FORMS TO THEIR PAGES)

Anyways...My self-imposed suffering aside...

Lizardy's new AP seems to downscale from 1.2892999 x 10^12 Joules, while Homura can damage boost into MCB, his durability remains 79,465,346,784 Joules

That's about a 16.2246809733x difference...Unless Lizardy downscales by a decent fraction (which I think she does but I don't remember by how much?) this fight is a oneshot, and she gets her revenge on the reincarnated knight pretty cleanly. I don't think any ability is going to score a win before she lands a single hit.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Lizardy's new AP seems to downscale from 1.2892999 x 10^12 Joules, while Homura can damage boost into MCB, his durability remains 79,465,346,784 Joules

Wait what... oh shit, I thought he was around baseline 8-A

Should I switch to another key? I recall the 8-B was at the higher end, right?

 

[XitSign]

See that's the problem. The 8-B's all scale to the same feat, the 8-A is a Damage Boost multiplier.

None of them are going to have the durability to tank a hit here, even with forcefields or passive HP buffs, I just don't think they're going to escape Oneshot range or have enough defensive abilities to avoid being pummled AP-wise...

 

[Peppersalt43]

See that's the problem. The 8-B's all scale to the same feat, the 8-A is a Damage Boost multiplier.

Wait, wouldn't that mean they both one-shot?

 

[XitSign]

Wait, wouldn't that mean they both one-shot?

Lizardy's durability is also in 8-A+, so Hormura would just be hitting her on her level, dealing 'normal' damage while being oneshot, right?

At least that seems to be what I'm reading on her profile, am I missing something and Lizardy's durability isn't as good as her AP?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Lizardy's durability is also in 8-A+

So uh, Lizardy scales to the low tiers of the verse which is around 237.32 tons. The lowest value of 8-A is 100 tons. Lizardy is not in 8-A+ value

 

[XitSign]

Huh...She's listed as a '+' in her AP and Durability section, that needs corrected then if that's not correct for her or anyone else who scales to that value.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Huh...She's listed as a '+' in her AP and Durability section, that needs corrected then if that's not correct for her or anyone else who scales to that value.

Well that's odd

Anyway can we now continue this now knowing the AP gap isn't that bad?

 

[XitSign]

Yeah so that's a lot more viable, I think...

Call me stubborn, but I like joules over tonnage values, but if I've done it correctly, the difference is instead about 5.40822699108x in Lizardy's favor instead. MASSIVE AP advantage still any way you slice it.

Of course, there's the standards when it comes to Lizardy fights. She's mobile with flight, she basically becomes multiple opponents, she's decently skilled and smart, she can regenerate destroyed parts however it's massively taxing to her overall stamina and can wear her down. She doesn't have a lot of unique tricks, but here has a HEFTY AP advantage this time.

Meanwhile, Homura's a Puzzle and Dragon's character, so lord knows he has 'quirks' (pun intended). There's a lot of Damage Boosting in PAD, Mass Attacks can hit large AOEs to hit multiple foes while also being a damage booster, the passive 'Soul Flame of the Phoenix' means Homura's fire attacks will be 2.5x stronger to catch up to Lizardy's AP advantage (though again his durability won't be any better). Two-Pronged attack lets him boost even higher, but those attacks ONLY target 2 pieces at a time, and the enhanced Fire Orbs will, obviously, 'enhance' damage even more and Homura's odds of spawning them naturally are decent.

And then there's Scold and Burnout, that bypass durability entirely, and will be massively dangerous to be hit by. Lizardy's almost for sure losing pieces to being dura-neg burned, and forced to regen or go without them if that happens.

Also, despite the sheer AP Vs. Durability disadvantage that Homura's fighting against, without it being a total AP stomp, he does have some useful defensive abilities. Obviously, Heal Orbs for general healing the entire fight, comboing them with Fire Orbs boosts both their potencies AND lets him attack and heal at the same time. Summoning Forcefields to block incomming strikes has...SOME use, but the sheer AP difference this time is really going to dampen their effectiveness. Comboing makes Shields stronger too, but they're playing catchup against Lizardy just hitting harder.

Phoenix Knight's Soul is going to be interesting. For a good chunk of time, the damage from Lizardy's attacks are going to be absorbed as healing rather than damage until Lizardy realizes that she needs to 'combo-hit' to bypass it's passive effect. She may not understand at first why 1-4 hits in a row aren't doing anything, but given her smarts I'm sure she'll realize there's a pattern there.

One ability that wasn't valuable last time though? Resolve. Previously when Homura had the AP advantage, I didn't think this would come up, but now that Lizardy hits PRETTY hard, Resolve might come into play, triggering a sort of Type 2 immortality where Homura will hang on even though he should go down. Combo that with getting healing off from absorption or heal orbs could give him a second wind of sorts.

And 'High Temperature' also gives temporary damage reduction, letting Homura make the hits hurt about 75% less for a while, which is not an insubstantial reduction in damage.

And of course, while Homura has no standout intelligence or skill feats, he's at least competent. PAD monsters are at least human-level naturally, and the Mystic Knights are natural 'battle focused' warriors. Lizardy's likely smarter, but Homura probably isn't woefully outclassed, with his own flight and range, giving him similar mobility, he's not about to stand there and just take it mindlessly, he's at least going to but some strategy and 'comboing' (pun also intended) abilities together just like they do in-game.

So basically...Lizardy has a HEFTY AP advantage, and is likely smarter, and 'outnumbers', while Homura's got far more abilities that have a lot more uses, more 'stat manipulation', and his healing isn't stamina-taxing and has other applications alongside the healing. I feel this is MUCH closer than last time, and will likely result in a drawn-out slug fest this time. Lizardy hits hard, but Homura can bypass durability to destroy parts of her with special attacks while also he can heal, shield, 'resolve', and reduce damage to try to stay in the game.

I'm...unsure who I lean, I feel the factors are SO much closer this time around.

 

[Peppersalt43]

I'm...unsure who I lean, I feel the factors are SO much closer this time around.

Can incon work in this case?

 

[XitSign]

I think I'd lean that for now. Yeah, I'd vote incon without more input.

Lizardy's AP advantage is undeniable, and she's smart and can swarm Homura.

However, Homura's a bag of tricks that Lizardy has less counters to other than 'hit harder, hit smarter, dodge more'. She needs to get around the passive absorption (I think she probably can, but might slip up early by mistake), and then counter that WHOLE list of abilities to keep smacking him (healing, forcefields, Type 2 immortality, damage reduction, you get the jist). I think the one that REALLY swings it for me is that Homura can bypass the Durability difference with Dura Negging fire attacks, and the damage boosting gimmick of PAD characters will hurt too since he can catch back up, but MOSTLY the dura negging.

It's one of those situations where I feel neither are going down without dragging this out, and the longer the fight goes, the less obvious a clear winner becomes since they're just chipping away at each other's resources/stamina.

 

[XitSign]

...Also Homura still has the win against Lizardy when she scaled lower. That never got removed. I should fix that.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Cool

 

[TheRustyOne]

So uh, Lizardy scales to the low tiers of the verse which is around 237.32 tons. The lowest value of 8-A is 100 tons. Lizardy is not in 8-A+ value

No, she scales to the 711.97 Tons value. She can harm Bakugo (She is weaker than him) who is stronger than 5% Izuku, who is 711.97 Tons. Her scaling has always come from being able to harm Bakugo, but is noted as being weaker than him. The value being scaled to however is also weaker than Bakugo, so she's just 711.97 Tons.

This flame knight has way too many abilities for me and the discussion here looks rather hefty as well, so I'm not making any votes as of now.

I'll have to make time to sit down and read all of this if I want to feel confident in making a vote.

 

[Peppersalt43]

No, she scales to the 711.97 Tons value. She can harm Bakugo (She is weaker than him) who is stronger than 5% Izuku, who is 711.97 Tons. Her scaling has always come from being able to harm Bakugo, but is noted as being weaker than him. The value being scaled to however is also weaker than Bakugo, so she's just 711.97 Tons.

Hang on a second, didn't you say she didn't scale to Bakugo due to how low the downscaling would bring her and hence why she scales to the low tiers?

 

[TheRustyOne]

Hang on a second, didn't you say she didn't scale to Bakugo due to how low the downscaling would bring her and hence why she scales to the low tiers?

That was when she was High 8-C, which was back in 2022. Bakugo was the source of the High 8-C+ feat, as such she was obviously weaker than it.

That was simply based on how we're treating downscaling in MHA, where you downscale to the baseline of the previous tier/value. In this case, Setsuna scaled above the lower Tier characters who were 2.7 Tons back then, since she could harm Bakugo. As such we couldn't downscale her to 2 Tons since she isn't weaker than the lower tiers.

That's why I said that.

However this has all changed, Bakugo is scaling above the 8-A+ feat that is 711.97 Tons.

Meaning the 711.97 Tons value is weaker than Bakugo, and Setsuna is weaker than Bakugo but can still harm him.

 

[XitSign]

I'm a bit confused, since the Notes section of the verse page splits up the 8-A's into 3 sections, based on scaling to different fractions of the 711.97 feat.

Would Lizardy be a Low scale, mid scale, or high scale then?

 

[Peppersalt43]

I'm a bit confused, since the Notes section of the verse page splits up the 8-A's into 3 sections, based on scaling to different fractions of the 711.97 feat.

Would Lizardy be a Low scale, mid scale, or high scale then?

So essentially, Bakugo upscales from the 711.97 feat which means Lizardy is directly 711.97 tons on account of her downscaling off him

 

[XitSign]

My point is moreso I'm simply confused to how we clarify which characters are in what brackets of the notes section for the verse page. And where these 'low-mid-high' scales are comming from?

But if that's the case...Homura's Immortality type 2 and Absorption might block a few hits, but Lizardy oneshots at that value still, so it's like...3-4 hits before she realizes what's keeping him alive and them AP stompping then.

Maybe that brief amount of time plus dura-neg means Homura still has a wincon? Since he can't die instantly?

 

[TheRustyOne]

And where these 'low-mid-high' scales are comming from?

That's not really relevant for this versus thread, but the values are simple if you keep this in mind.

If they have a plus sign in their ratings they're 711.97 Tons. (Multi-City Block level+)

If they don't have a plus sign in their ratings they're 237.32 Tons. (Multi-City Block level)

The higher 8-A value only effects three characters, and can be found on their character profile.

 

[XitSign]

That's not really relevant for this versus thread, but the values are simple if you keep this in mind.

If they have a plus sign in their ratings they're 711.97 Tons. (Multi-City Block level+)

If they don't have a plus sign in their ratings they're 237.32 Tons. (Multi-City Block level)

The higher 8-A value only effects three characters, and can be found on their character profile.

No no, I get that part, I'm just confused who scales and why then, because it seems there was a confusion on Lizardy scaling to a fraction of Bakugo, which was definitely the case in previous Lizardy thread pre-upgrade too...so those threads may have been mistake at the time as well, downplaying her AP value.

 

[Peppersalt43]

so those threads may have been mistake at the time as well, downplaying her AP value

I'm pretty sure that was due to who was the one performing the feat which does affect the scaling

 

[TheRustyOne]

No no, I get that part, I'm just confused who scales and why then, because it seems there was a confusion on Lizardy scaling to a fraction of Bakugo, which was definitely the case in previous Lizardy thread pre-upgrade too...so those threads may have been mistake at the time as well, downplaying her AP value.

The issue was the calculation and feat are now different then when she was High 8-C. She just downscales from Bakugo and that hasn't changed.

Back then Bakugo was the reason they had a High 8-C+ rating, it was his own feat. As such she downscaled from his own High 8-C+ feat.

However, the current 8-A+ feat is coming from 5% Deku. Setsuna fought and harmed a Bakugo who is scaling above Deku.

She still downscales from Bakugo, but since he scales above Deku's feat, she's scaling to Deku's value exactly.

 

[XitSign]

Alright, all fair enough.

Point stands that this...MIGHT still be viable then? Lizardy oneshotting would trigger resolve, and with passive absorption negating some attacks and healing, Homura might be able to tank based on resolve looping for a while while Lizardy figures out why he's not going down/randomly healing (especially since she can't see Orbs)

AP is SO far remolved tho, Homura needs his dura neg to even do damage, but since it's a dura neg he may still have a wincon to keep this viable.

...Last thread we cleared up that Homura's power Null wouldn't work since Lizardy's quirk is a boilogical one, and Homura only negates passives, right?

Regardless, this may still be matchable, but I'm less confident on any vote given Homura's very strange defensive abilities in this context.

 

[XitSign]

Also unrelated, but it's kind of amusing that I think the last time we did this match up my hero academia didn't have its crossover with puzzles and dragons at the time.

This flight is now not impossible. At least in pad cannon to exist, though odds are lizardy would probably scale to large star.

 

[TheRustyOne]

How does his dura negation work exactly?

 

[XitSign]

How does his dura negation work exactly?

Scold and Burnout, which are 'Gravity' attacks. They do damage that bypasses the defenses (though not resistances or absorptions) to deal a spesific precentage of HP all at once. Characters are hit with elemental blasts and they just take far more damage than their durability should allow.

Scold targets for 99%, while Burnout targets for 300%, making it leathal to characters who don't resist or absorb it.

And, preemptively, this isn't game mechanics, though it sounds game mechanicy. PAD's story modes have made a LOT of things that sound like they should be game mechanics and apply them very literally, with these 'dura negs' abilities being the solution to high defense foes they were doing no damage to.

 

[TheRustyOne]

That fine to me, doesn't sound like the one shot kill though. So I imagine she can survive hits or just dodge them as well.

While I know he can take fatal attack without dying, can he heal fast enough to avoid getting killed right afterward?

Since she'll likely surround him with around a dozen pieces of herself, each only being capable of wounding him fatally.

 

[XitSign]

That fine to me, doesn't sound like the one shot kill though. So I imagine she can survive hits or just dodge them as well.

One's 99%, but the other is 300%. One hits hard, and the other is overkill given, you know...it's over 100%. Lizardy doesn't seem to have any fire/heat resistance or absorption to reduce that damage. Either her parts are being nearly burned up or totally burned up. Neither sounds great to tank.

However, the main thing is yes, it shouldn't oneshot since Homura's going to be fighting her pieces, not all of her as one target. While his energy blasts can hit multiple targets, Lizardy is swarming with them, so only so many pieces will get 'fried' at a time.

While I know he can take fatal attack without dying, can he heal fast enough to avoid getting killed right afterward?

Since she'll likely surround him with around a dozen pieces of herself, each only being capable of wounding him fatally.

That's what's going to be weird about this. Resolve will trigger to keep him alive when struck with a fatal blow, and as long as Homura heals enough, Resolves reset. On one hand, Homura can use Heal Orbs with just thought, and his 'Soul Flame of the Phoenix' makes his healing extra potent compared to typical monsters ontop of that.

But 'Phoenix Knight's Soul' also passively heals by absorbing incoming damage that isn't a high enough combo, meaning Lizardy's attacks will heal Homura instead of hurt should Homura use flight and range and dodge as well. Or if Lizardy makes mistakes and doesn't realize what's going on and why.

The fight does start at 30m and Homura can not only fly but is perfectly capable of ranged projectile attacks, with PAD characters frequently enjoying their energy blast combat, so Homura's likely to be frequently on the move as well and have all the mobility of the air...Don't think Homura would realize he outranges, technically, so likely wouldn't just keep backing off and shooting endlessly, but he certainly won't just stand on the ground or stay in one place.

Plus the biggest part of all of this is PAD characters combing abilities and effects together, healing AND attacking can be the same action for them, so launching flames with Scold while also healing himself is something he can do in one motion, resetting Lizardy's progress while also forcing her to deal with another dura-neg hit.

 

[TheRustyOne]

But 'Phoenix Knight's Soul' also passively heals by absorbing incoming damage that isn't a high enough combo, meaning Lizardy's attacks will heal Homura instead of hurt should Homura use flight and range and dodge as well. Or if Lizardy makes mistakes and doesn't realize what's going on and why.

Can you explain exactly how does this work?

That sounds really OP. Even a 3-A attack cannot harm him in this case? Sounds like she cannot hurt him no matter what.

 

[XitSign]

Can you explain exactly how does this work?

That sounds really OP. Even a 3-A attack cannot harm him in this case? Sounds like she cannot hurt him no matter what.

First of all...Yeah there's probably SOME level of NLF, but we've definitely seen it absorb damage within ballparks and one-shots, so likely applicable here. (also would you believe 'Negation of Absorption' is a common ability in-universe for this exact reason? ...PAD gives a LOT of characters 'Power Null, lol' to solve problems they create...)

I'm also prefacing this with: PAD is stupid and made really dumb writing decisions.

PAD is a match-three puzzle game where you link the colorful orbs on the screen to power up characters, matching multiple 'chains' lets characters work together, link attacks, and increase their power with 'Combos'. However certain abilities like 'Phoenix Knight's Soul' allows the user to absorb the damage rather than taking it if a certain combo threshold isn't met with attacks. Hit them with a combo too small? You've healed them and done nothing. Hit them with a high enough combo at once, you break through and deal actual damage.

So, again...This sounds game mechanic-y. We used to disregard these abilities as game mechanics. However PAD made the baffling decision to include characters directly explaining their 'combo absorber' abilities, and a plotline where characters go to an actual school to learn about Combos and how to use them in these situations. So...It's a very, very, very dumb but canon thing.

Again, some amount of NLF has to be in play here that a character ridiculously stronger than Homura would one-shot him and disregard this system, but Lizardy's probably not in that threshold since the gap is a oneshot but not any moreso than we sometimes see in-universe? So she's in a awkward situation here where she needs to realize that hitting him 4 or less times or him 'breaking the combo' by dodging or something along those lines isn't working, but 5 and more will do actual damage. ...But also, Homura will be using some invisible thought-based force she can't see to ALSO heal, which might make forming a strategy confusing, since Homura's ability to heal and tank fatal blows likely won't make sense initially. Sometimes he heals by being hit, sometimes he doesn't, and sometimes he heals for literally no reason, at least from her perspective.

But Lizardy's not dumb. She's smart, it's clearly listed in her intelligence her strategic abilities are her strength, and she's favoring a flying AND swarming fighting style. Once she figures this out, there's a clear opening there to take Homura out. Land the right combos...Twice in a row. She needs to do that while denying Homura the freedom to heal (because Homura could get unlucky and there be a lack of Heal Orbs when he needs them) or dodge or destroy incoming parts of hers to stop their next attack or find some way to abuse his combo of abilities to preserve his life. The moment she does and Homura slips up, she absolutely could clinch that sweet spot and destroy him.

That's why I'm not confident in where my vote should be anymore. Lizardy's very smart and has a massive AP lead and has mobility and swarming to chase Homura down...But Homura's going to be a weird opponent because PAD can be...weird. What's keeping him alive is a combo of powers that are not very conventional...

 

[TheRustyOne]

So she's in a awkward situation here where she needs to realize that hitting him 4 or less times or him 'breaking the combo' by dodging or something along those lines isn't working, but 5 and more will do actual damage. ...But also, Homura will be using some invisible thought-based force she can't see to ALSO heal, which might make forming a strategy confusing, since Homura's ability to heal and tank fatal blows likely won't make sense initially.

If she can't damage him with her attacks I don't see why she'll assume he has any ability or something.

A far more simple conclusion would be her believing she cannot harm him because he's really durable. She might try to poke and find weak points, but unless she gets lucky she isn't going to inflict any real damage on him. In that case she might try to restrain him, but both have Unknown LS so I cannot say if she could.

Ignoring the fact I doubt he's stand there and let her do that.

I don't know if this match up is actually fair for anyone involved.

 

[XitSign]

If she can't damage him with her attacks I don't see why she'll assume he has any ability or something.

A far more simple conclusion would be her believing she cannot harm him because he's really durable. She might try to poke and find weak points, but unless she gets lucky she isn't going to inflict any real damage on him. In that case she might try to restrain him, but both have Unknown LS so I cannot say if she could.

Ignoring the fact I doubt he's stand there and let her do that.

I don't know if this match up is actually fair for anyone involved.

Thank you for the reminder that PAD still has no good Lifting Strength feats somehow...I genuinely don't know how across like 4 games and an anime how I can't find ANYTHING...

There is the chance that she slams him with enough hits back to back, then suddenly does a LOT of damage and triggers his resolve out of nowhere...But if he bounces back with either absorption or Heal Orbs, that's kinda what I was getting at...Lizardy might not piece together what that means and how she can use it without it happening more than once...So yeah it makes Homura weird to fight in this context...

It...Might become a stamina-based war of attrition, Lizardy getting tired as Homura burning out her pieces while she runs the risk of accidently bypassing his passive ability/figuring it out and clinching that kill...I genuinely don't know how I feel about the MU either, I don't know who to vote for, what's the most realistic, what's even the most fair.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Setsuna's win condition is based on her "combo", and even if she gets pass the combo barrier he'll be able to survive one hit. In that case she'll see him take massive damage out of nowhere, which will surprise her for a second allowing him time to heal and break the chain. Meaning if she attacks him again she'll see his wounds instantly heal.

Considering she's a barrage style of attacker, meaning she throws out dozens of attacks rapidly, I imagine it's likely she could land the multiple hits needed. But I cannot say if she could realistically capitalize on the opening. As it's not like he'll be a sitting duck either, he'll be avoiding/flying, attacking, healing, and ect.

This knight's win condition is landing multiple dura negating attacks until she tires out and cannot regenerate anymore.

Think I'll vote for Inconclusive as well.

 

[XitSign]

I think that's a far better summary than anything I've written, and resolidify my Incon vote FRA.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Counted and thank you!

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Incon FRA

 

[Peppersalt43]

Counted and thank you!