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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

 
My apologies. I forgot to remove Eseseso and Excel from the ping.
 
Eseseso said:
Welp, I think that I am done with my Astral Form Sandbox (so naturally right after I post it I'll find like 5 juicy statements that I could've added beforehand), so I will likely make a CRT for it soon.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Astral Form Physiology (Marvel Comics)

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Any last thoughts?

BTW, any link where you don't see a footnote, the scan is in the imgur link.
Click to expand...
Good job, got me like this

FoNbTBnX0AA5nMb.jpg
 
 
Lightning_XXI said:
It looks great, but I wouldn't add the fact that an astral form scales to its owner in terms of power in its Powers and Abilities section, it's something more related to features and description instead of a Hax or Ability
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I was just planning on adding it in the P&A of those who can affect/damage/destroy Astral Forms, such as all magic users.

Something along the lines of linking to the sandbox for "Can damage and destroy Astral Forms".

Also, reminder to everyone that this sandbox also greatly affects (as in, upgrades) the potency of Marvel mind-hax for everyone who has and/or resists Mind Hax (asides from those who already have Low 1-A mind hax like Xavier, Doctor Strange, etc.).
 
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Antvasima said:
@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @LuciferX @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Lonkitt @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

What do you think about the following draft for a new verse-specific powers and abilities page?

vsbattles.fandom.com

Astral Form Physiology (Marvel Comics)

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
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I have issues with it.
  • Having Intangibility when you already have Incorporeality is redundant.
  • This is something everyone gets wrong about Abstract Existence, the page says "Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction" and we don't have that here.
    • Type 1 also says "affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars", and we have nothing of that here. You can hit a soul and you can hit anyone in this form.
  • They absolutely don't have "possibly Infinite or Immeasurable speed", they are way too many times in which others can keep up with it, and way, way too many times the actions they do aren't infinitely fast (Almost every time, minus the parts where we don't know because we don't see anything else as a ref of how much time happened). I don't need to say this but all the statements that could give it those speeds can also be poetic rather than literal in the way that gives those speeds by our standards.
  • On Higher-Dimensional Existence, Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1):
    • Even if they were to exist in a higher dimension, that's meaningless for this powers, the forms themselves need to be higher dimensional. Being inside =/= Being as big.
    • This is not a higher dimension in any way that we care about. It's "a substrate of Earth-616", sure, but that doesn't mean it's as big as it, anything could be of any size to be the substrate of anything. Being "higher" is pointless positioning. Any dimension outside the main universe is "beyond" it.
  • On Gravity Manipulation: No, no. That just means he can fly in context, of course being incorporeal means gravity doesn't affect you, adding it as a resistance is redundant & wrong.
  • Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) should be Limited Self-Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3), it only applies to the creation of their form.
  • Memory Manipulation: Well we don't know if the soul "contains" memories, as far as we know the soul reflects upon and affects memories, which is not quite the same. Even then, this doesn't give them any Memory Manip.
  • Mind Manipulation: Limited as well, it's not like they can do anything Mind wise to anyone not in the Astral plane.
  • Nonduality (Nature 1, Aspect 2):
  • Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2 & 3; Aspect Types 1, 2 [Type 3 Concept], & 3):
    • "The Astral Realm, where all Astral Forms reside, is described as "The edge of reality. The shores of oblivion. The realm of mind and spirit that exists between being and non-being"": As said before, existing "between being and non-being" =/= Being neither being nor non-being. This is where they are, not necessarily what they are. Even then this is having one's cake & eat it too as they're not even fully "non-being".
    • "because Astral Forms are composed of not just one's soul, but also one's mind": I already give issues with the premise.
    • "their "idea, thought, and narrative", and the very essence of who they are, they thus exist between "being" and "not being" in regard to their minds, souls, and personal concepts, and information.": That's not true, "being" and "non-being" in that context only refers to a basic take on those words, you just made up that it has to refers to all the stuff the Astral realm deals with.
    • "One's astral form is their Ethereal Ego, which is one's conception of self as well as their conception of what is not themself.": Went over this before.
  • "The stronger one's physical body is, the stronger their astral form will be.": Could be but that's not what the text says.

On Powers gained from affecting an Astral Form​

All of this part is wrong minus Soul Manip.
  • Memory Manipulation*: Same as before, it wasn't established that it "contains" it, you just assumed that to be the case. But even if it was, affecting an Astral Form wouldn't be Memory Manip in the same way that only being able to manipulate cardboard boxes doesn't mean one can also manipulate what's inside them. Made up out of sheer something =/= Have that something inside in a metaphysical way, here is the latter case.
  • Mind Manipulation*: Same issues.
  • Non-Physical Interaction* (Ghost, Spirit, Soul - Energy - Invisibility, Intangibility - Incorporeality - Abstract Minds, Emotions/Personality, Memory, Ideas, Narrative, Thoughts, Life Force - Concept Type 3 - Information Type 2 - Nonexistent Nature Type 2 & 3, Aspect 1, 2, & 3 - Nondual Nature 1, Aspect 2): Jesus some of this are even synonyms.
    • Ghost, Spirit and Soul are the same, that's correct.
    • Energy is correct.
    • Being able to affect invisible beings is not a thing at all.
    • Intangibility is again redundant when you have Incorporeality.
    • Being an "Abstract Mind" isn't proven to be in a way any more untouchable than anyone with regular intangibility.
    • Emotions/Personality, Memory: Same issues said above.
    • Ideas, Narrative: The realm itself has that gimmick but that doesn't mean the Astral forms are made up out of sheer that.
    • Thoughts, Life Force: Same issues said above.
    • Concept Type 3 is wrong as manipulating a concept to create a form isn't the same as being a sheer concept that can't be affected at all unless you can affect concepts.
    • Same issue with Information Type 2, they're formed by all that info, but they're not necessarily sheer info that can't be affected unless you can manipulate info.
    • Nonexistent Nature Type 2 & 3, Aspect 1, 2, & 3 & Nondual Nature 1, Aspect 2 I already disagree with.
  • Empathic Manipulation*: Same as above.
  • Limited Causality Manipulation/Limited Plot Manipulation* - Since the Astral Plane is the realm of narrative, to affect one's Astral Form is to affect their personal narrative.: I already said it but having that gimmick doesn't mean being there makes you made up of that. It just means that the realm itself has gimmicks about narrative.
  • Information Manipulation (Type 2)*: As said before, they're formed by all that info, but they're not necessarily sheer info that can't be affected unless you can manipulate infom, that's not what the comic establishes.
  • Life Manipulation*: As said before, being made up out of sheer something =/= Have that something inside in a metaphysical way, here is the latter case.
  • I already disagree with "the higher-dimensional nature of Astral Forms".
 
Eseseso said:
Btw, from Captain Britain and MI13 #10, Doctor Doom should get limited Passive Holy Manipulation since he has splinters of the True Cross within his armor, which he says (and Dracula does not deny) protect him from all vampires.
Click to expand...
Counter argument; The True Cross is just a cross, like holy water is just water, and vampites are simply weak to it rather than it having any supernatural Holy powers. Tho we should list it in his SE as "True cross and other such defenses: [Text]"
 
Eficiente said:
Counter argument; The True Cross is just a cross, like holy water is just water, and vampites are simply weak to it rather than it having any supernatural Holy powers. Tho we should list it in his SE as "True cross and other such defenses: [Text]"
Click to expand...
I mean, its the holiness or belief in its holiness that repels vampires, but using it as SE isn't a terrible idea.
 
And anyways, the Astral Form stuff also makes all telepathy-based Marvel Mind Hax (including magic mind hax that is telepathy-based) Low 1-A in nature due to the nature of mind battles in Marvel involving their Astral Forms fighting on the Astral Plane.

Many of the top telepaths like Strange and Xavier already have Low 1-A mind hax, this is just support.

Maverick_Zero_X said:
Shouldn’t Galactus have some type of Large Size?
Click to expand...
Thoughts about the Astral Form sandbox (and the telepathy stuff)?
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
Why does Thor feel pain? He just got hit by a bus
Click to expand...
Sigh. Because as both I and the Marvel Comics writers and editors keep trying to explain to people over and over and over and over, year in and year out, but much of the fanbase keeps vehemently denying while keeping their hands over their ears and singing lalalalalalala, the fundamental narrative structure of that setting does not care at all about power level consistencies, so the characters are all over the place, no matter how much we try to rationalise it.

I apologise if was was being rude above, but it has been very tiresome to vainly attempt to explain this so many times for the past 8 to 9 years.
 
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Antvasima said:
Sigh. Because as both I and the Marvel Comics writers and editors keep trying to explain to people over and over and over and over, year in and year out, but much of the fanbase keeps vehemently denying while keeping their hands over their ears and singing lalalalalalala, the fundamental narrative structure of that setting does not care at all about power level consistencies, so the characters are all over the place, no matter how much we try to rationalise it.

I apologise if was was being rude above, but it has been very tiresome to vainly attempt to explain this so many times for the past 8 to 9 years.
Click to expand...
I'm not angry. I'm still very new so I don't know the root cause or reason. Please explain to me
 
Yokoahh5743 said:
I'm not angry. I'm still very new so I don't know the root cause or reason. Please explain to me
Click to expand...
He wasn’t saying anything to you specifically, he was just saying instances like that arise from a pretty large degree of plot induced stupidity, hence why we have all these power scaling guidelines for Marvel and DC (things like that couldn’t otherwise be rationalized consistently).
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
He wasn’t saying anything to you specifically, he was just saying instances like that arise from a pretty large degree of plot induced stupidity, hence why we have all these power scaling guidelines for Marvel and DC (things like that couldn’t otherwise be rationalized consistently).
Click to expand...
Yes, that is correct. I am tired of having had to argue about this topic so often for many years, so I was speaking generally.
 
Please take a look at this please 🙏🏻🙏🏻

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Jean grey current big reversion!!!

Hello everyone I'm here to suggest an upgrade for base from Jean Gray level. You shouldn't be at level 5-B, her should be at a higher level than this. Let's start exploring the content right away. She is a hero who should be on the same level as abstract entities . • She overcame two...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Antvasima said:
Spider-Man and the Secret Wars does not fit into regular continuity, so I would much prefer if we avoid scaling from it at all. 🙏
Click to expand...
I actually asked Ultima, he said that he believes the Abstracts are basically the same in each universe unless shown/stated otherwise, hence why he used scans from SMatSW.

To quote him:

The Earths are largely carbon-copies of each other. Earth-616 is even called the model of which all the other timelines are "echoes" sometimes. Unless otherwise stated or shown (Like with Marvel Zombies, where Galactus demonstrably works pretty differently from regular Galactus), I'd say it's fine to treat these things as constant for all versions of the Abstracts.
 
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Okay, but in-continuity fights with Galactus have never been portrayed that way.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay, but in-continuity fights with Galactus have never been portrayed that way.
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Fair point.

That said, since we already use those scans for passive space-time manipulation for Galactus, I'm pretty sure the powers described for that are also causality manipulation for sure, hence why IMO it should be added to his page.

Oliver_de_jesus said:
He is, during galactus vs the other vs scrier at least
Click to expand...
Scan?

Which reminds me, a chum of mine (@Confluctor) compiled this gem of Galactus P&A, mainly for Lifebringer Galactus:



Any thoughts?
 
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