The Power of the Maw (Vanilla Ice vs Alex Mercer)

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Vampires tend to ignore the laws of physics and biology. Even then Alex has never used that as a go-to ability in the first game. Second game it's justifiable that he's fighting his fellows.

So what's stopping him from going underground? And when does Alex even know that he's a vampire. AOE or not it leaves him open to being chunkified even more mid charge.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Vampires tend to ignore the laws of physics and biology. Even then Alex has never used that as a go-to ability in the first game. Second game it's justifiable that he's fighting his fellows.
So what's stopping him from going underground? And when does Alex even know that he's a vampire. AOE or not it leaves him open to being chunkified even more mid charge.

well so does black light it can make a person into a physics defing demi god who can regenorate from a few blood cells and the black light infects on cellular level enough to overpower the mid regen plus vanila has, also vanilla or any vampire in jojo for that matter doesn't have biological resistences to viruses its not on his profile or even in the series(no vampire has ever demonstraited resistences to viruses aspecialy viruses on the same level as black light that can turn a person into a zombie in less then 10 seconds)

and what stops him from going underground is that he is blind while in cream and both black light and the sun would kill him instantly, black light would kill him the second he breathed it in(it can effect you through a gass mask seen in the fact that black watch soldiers get infected instantly even with their gas masks) and the sun well you can see it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUxpATnVjmw and you can quite clearly see that vanilla is a bit of a moron as he instead of using cream to try to finish off polnareff he littrelly walks into the sun and die because of it

sure mercer dosen't know that he is a vampire but nither dose vanillla as seen in the video and im more the sure that mercer would level the building or fill it with black light spores making wining for vanilla an imposibility

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Fair point. Not my main argument though.

So why would he not go underground then if he feels the environment crumbling all around him and knowing there's a sun outside? Not to mention Alex wouldn't know to do that right away. I'm not gonna argue about PIS btw. I agree that Jojo characters can be incredibly stupid when the plot demands it but that's a different debate. Also if Alex's biomass thing was infecting everything James' kid would be already infected.

Vanilla Ice would always use his ability no matter what. It doesn't change his tactics. He's not gonna do anything else. So what if he blows up the place? Still gonna tunnel underground. Even if he's charging up.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Fair point. Not my main argument though.
So why would he not go underground then if he feels the environment crumbling all around him and knowing there's a sun outside? Not to mention Alex wouldn't know to do that right away. I'm not gonna argue about PIS btw. I agree that Jojo characters can be incredibly stupid when the plot demands it but that's a different debate. Also if Alex's biomass thing was infecting everything James' kid would be already infected.

Vanilla Ice would always use his ability no matter what. It doesn't change his tactics. He's not gonna do anything else. So what if he blows up the place? Still gonna tunnel underground. Even if he's charging up.

mate in cream he dosen't feel a thing or see anything he littrally gose to another dimension he wouldn't feel the mension crubling not to mention that vanillia in the plot dosen't know that his a vapmire polnareffe stated it and he himself was baffled at the fact that his arm disintagrated on contact with sunlight he simply dosen't know his a vampire

second you just said that you aren't gona argue PIS but the next second you use the james kid which is pis, we see people in full gas masks and air tight suits specificly tailored to fight the infection get infected by being in a cloud of white light(air borne black light that mercer himself can produce) the kid surving the **** fest that is NYC is even more PIS

and yeah mercer wouldn't use it streight away but he is more then capable to survive long enough to understand that the only way to beat the invinsible all consuming void is either an AOE(the less likely option) or relising a large amount of white light and no matter which one he uses vanilla ice wouldn't have a win condition after he uses it making it either an incon or a win for mercer there is no two ways around it

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Right. I'll hear out your explanation to him attacking Alex, then realizing the place is crumbling. You seem to base much of your argument about plot induced stupidity. That's gonna be an issue if you keep trying that in this site. Just advising mate.

Hmmm.... What part about that is PIS? Alex not being able to infect everything? Seems more like logic. Unlike some guy walking to the sunlight that's his weakness. PIS is a character doing something stupid for the sake of the plot. A kid surviving the NYC where she has no control over what happen to her, is not PIS. It's a trait. It's something stupid that happens that's true. Much like Alex dying to James.

Comics and games say otherwise. Nothing's really special about Vanilla that's gonna make him try anything new or big. Also really, bad move considering it leaves Mercer vulnerable. I doubt gas attacks would work against Stands. And ... I can't understand the second half of your last paraagraph.

Also having no win condition would mean it's a stomp, which this isn't. Alex would literally lose a chunk of him in the first attack if not everything.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

"I'll hear out your explanation to him attacking Alex, then realizing the place is crumbling.You seem to base much of your argument about plot induced stupidity" can you refrase that cuse i can't really understand what that means. My point was that vanilla ice can't hear,see or feel anything that happens outside of creams poket dimension when he enters it him not feeling the mension crubmle around it wouldn't be PIS it would be part of his stands weakness

"Hmmm.... What part about that is PIS? Alex not being able to infect everything? Seems more like logic. Unlike some guy walking to the sunlight that's his weakness. PIS is a character doing something stupid for the sake of the plot. A kid surviving the NYC where she has no control over what happen to her, is not PIS. It's a trait. It's something stupid that happens that's true. Much like Alex dying to James." here I have to consede youre right(espesialy on the james part there is no way he should have one) its not pis but its still unreasanble and stupid that a 12 year old kid survived a virus outbreak that creats monsters that can eat tanks for breckfast

"Comics and games say otherwise. Nothing's really special about Vanilla that's gonna make him try anything new or big. Also really, bad move considering it leaves Mercer vulnerable. I doubt gas attacks would work against Stands. And ... I can't understand the second half of your last paraagraph" i missed typed i meant to say he wouldn't and even if he takes out a chunck of mercer his regen is good enough to handle it and taking him whole sale is unlikly since avdul wasn't fully taken out his arms remained and mercer can heal from that(the prototype 2 ending is sheer plot convines we seen mercer regenorate from a puddle of blood via the bio mass he got from a single crow in the end of P2 we see that he had enough biomass to fill up manhattan which should've been more then enough for him to heal his arms back for days without stop)

and i never said it was a stomp i just said that after mercer uses his more powerful abilities there would be no win condition for ice nothing more

 

[DeathNoodles]

Hmmm.... What part about that is PIS? Alex not being able to infect everything? Seems more like logic. Unlike some guy walking to the sunlight that's his weakness. PIS is a character doing something stupid for the sake of the plot. A kid surviving the NYC where she has no control over what happen to her, is not PIS. It's a trait. It's something stupid that happens that's true. Much like Alex dying to James.

Mercer essentially has full control over the Blacklight Virus right down to the molecular level (it even stated such in his profile in this site). The reason why Amaya wasn't infected because Mercer doesn't want such to happen yet, as that is a part of his plan that he doesn't want to execute just yet (it was revealed in the boss fight that Mercer intends to infect Amaya, and was implied he hasn't yet because it's not the time for it yet. Him storing Amaya in a vault with Dana also kind of proves such). That isn't an anti-feat for Mercer not being able to infect, that's actually a feat for Mercer being able to control what he wants to infect and what he doesn't (in this fight, he would most likely want to infect Vanilla every chance he gets due to his Prototype 2 mindset). Also, PIS refers to both the actions and events that contradicts a character's usual established capabilities for the purpose of plot, so you are quite incorrect by implying it only applies to a character's actions (even if most cases of PIS usually happens because of the character's actions).

I'll continue this debate later, for I am too busy today and this is all the time I have left.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Bump

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

@Sir Sun

Basically, well... Here in VSB if a character does something stupid in their franchise and seems a bit OOC, we justify whether or not it's their thinking process or if it's PIS. Also it's not as if he doesn't stop to observe his surroundings time to time.

Yeah. Even with the vault thing. You can argue that it's because of her special blood but Alex was talking about making her a Queen iirc. He had no reason to not change her unless there's something anti-villain going on like him wanting to make a hero out of an enemy. Which is cool but speculative sadly. That's why I can't say if that's his go-to ability that's active all the time.

No worries. That's also true that Alex can regen, but while he's stunned at the sudden disappearance of biomass, that's still a percentage based on his health and biomass ratio. He's gonna regenerate for sure, but at that point Vanilla is going for another attack probbaly. The first attack Vanilla did involved him taking out the entire body of someone after all. High possibility that he does the same to Alex. Well, we can't really say if Alex was A-okay after that crow incident. Major consensus implies that the nuke that he barely dodged was amost enough to take him out despite it being underwater. There's a limitation to his ability to recover basically. Much like how the Supreme Hunter who's close to him can do the same. It's an enforced feat by the sequel. Also if Alex is trying to regenerate, Vanilla Cream would go for him again upon realizing that and even if he can regen well, he's gonna die if Vanilla hunts down every bit of him.

That's fair, that's on me. Still, jojo stands are quite powerful anti-hax.

@DeathNoodles

You have provided not a single detail about why Alex has a reason to keep Dana and Maya safe from being infected. He wasn't using them to barter against James, he had no purpose on not keeping them infected. Alex isn't as competent as people think.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Ciruno Fortes

The reason why Amaya wasn't infected was because she was captured by an unknown government bureatu and was held at Gentek (you know, the same base that are basically the scientist variation to Blackwatch's military soliders, which was once full of scientists that were responsible for developing the Blacklight Virus. Being the ones that are responsible for the existence of Blacklight, they would likely know how to quarantine the infected and fight off the infection to a degree), and was then captured by Sabrina Galloway (who is an Evolved. And don't ask me why she didn't want to infect Amaya. It's likely she doesn't even possess the same degree of control over Blacklight as Mercer does, and probably wanted to bring Amaya to Mercer alive. Galloway even held Amaya hostage in front of Heller so that she could escape with her, so Galloway infecting and killing her only hostage in front of Heller likely wouldn't even be in her best interests), so Mercer likely didn't even know where Amaya is before Galloway brought her to him (so he can't exactly directly infect or kill someone in an exact location that he doesn't know of). As for why Mercer didn't infect Dana, he still held familial feelings for her before she betrayed him (so he would likely be protecting her from all the infected, and also control Blacklight so that they don't infect her. As for why he didn't just turn her into one of his Evolved... I don't know, because the plot said so? Based from what I can tell, Dana just recently woke up from her catonic state and was working with the resistance under the code name "Athena", so Mercer likely didn't know she is or why she is like that before the betrayal). After Dana tried to betray Mercer to Heller, Mercer locked both her and Amaya in a bank vault.

As for why Mercer didn't infect Dana after the betrayal? Well, he had the mindset of "destroying humanity and ushering in a new, better world", so he likely didn't see Dana as being worthy of his virus after her betrayal (he is aiming to create a new and better world with the Blacklight Virus as a medium, so he probably didn't see her as worthy of being in that new world he planned to create). As for why Mercer didn't kill Dana for her betrayal? I don't know. I don't know why he didn't decide to kill her for the betrayal, but we're talking about the convoluted plot that is Prototype 2 here. All I know is, he didn't kill Dana for her betrayal because of plot reasons.

As for why he didn't kill Amaya, it's because he is planning to infect her, and wanted to to create a better world with Amaya as the lynchpin. As for why he didn't infect her the moment she was brought to him? I don't know about that either. However, in the final battle between Mercer and Heller, Mercer was monologuing something about creating a better world and having Amaya being gifted with his virus so that she can be the queen of his new world or something. This proves that Mercer ca control who he infects and who he can't, as he was planning to infect Maya (but likely didn't do it the moment she was in his hands for plot reasons), thus this shows Mercer can indeed control who he can infect and who he can't (and not because of him literally being incapable of infecting Dana and Amaya, like you have suggested).

You seriously had to ask me those questions about why he didn't kill/infect Dana and Amaya in prototype 2, when Prototype 2 is known for their plot holes and inferior storytelling as suggested by Prototype fans? Those are the questions that no one knows the full answer to, and we can only answer them based on what little has been shown. However, based on what little we know of the convoluted plot of Prototype 2, Mercer has essentially full control over the Blacklight Virus, and didn't infect/kill Dana or Amaya for the reasons I have mentioned above.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Fluff. Lots of fluff. If Alex has full control of the virus he wouldn't have to be so worried about the issue of the antivenom thing to the point that he had to use trickery instead of out adapting a cure. Dana not being infected doesn't provide any proof that he's open to infecting everything. Also frankly, infecting someone is one of the worst things to do. Cause the last time he infected anyone, you got a Hell-er of a problem.... hehe. But no seriously, bad move and the only reason why James was the one infected is because he's the protagonist. Unless you want someone that has a Stand and Alex Mercer's powers, that's likely a horrible idea to do that. Also Dana working with a resistance group and betraying Alex is grounds for getting killed. Last time Alex's girlfriend did the same she was dead right after.

Yes plot reasons. But this is starting to veer off main topic so I'm not gonna address that since we seems to agree that Prototype 2's plot is stupid but it's what happened.

This is veering to speculative headcanon theory on some sections. Either way I didn't say he can't infect Amaya and Dana, I was saying it's not his go-to ability. Regardless bad move to use that on a vampire and him controlling Evolved or infected is only partial. Considering that James is one key rebel against him.

Invoking plot holes and PIS doesn't deny the existence of said feats. Alex doesn't actively infect everyone with gas. Otherwise he would've done so from the start with James on their first encounter. Frequency of abilities affect how likely they are to be used.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Fluff. Lots of fluff. If Alex has full control of the virus he wouldn't have to be so worried about the issue of the antivenom thing to the point that he had to use trickery instead of out adapting a cure. Dana not being infected doesn't provide any proof that he's open to infecting everything. Also frankly, infecting someone is one of the worst things to do. Cause the last time he infected anyone, you got a Hell-er of a problem.... hehe. But no seriously, bad move and the only reason why James was the one infected is because he's the protagonist. Unless you want someone that has a Stand and Alex Mercer's powers, that's likely a horrible idea to do that. Also Dana working with a resistance group and betraying Alex is grounds for getting killed. Last time Alex's girlfriend did the same she was dead right after.

Yes plot reasons. But this is starting to veer off main topic so I'm not gonna address that since we seems to agree that Prototype 2's plot is stupid but it's what happened.

This is veering to speculative headcanon theory on some sections. Either way I didn't say he can't infect Amaya and Dana, I was saying it's not his go-to ability. Regardless bad move to use that on a vampire and him controlling Evolved or infected is only partial. Considering that James is one key rebel against him.

Invoking plot holes and PIS doesn't deny the existence of said feats. Alex doesn't actively infect everyone with gas. Otherwise he would've done so from the start with James on their first encounter. Frequency of abilities affect how likely they are to be used.

1) Well, I might have worded it wrong by saying he has full control over Blacklight (unintentionally exaggerating his capabilities a bit there), but his control over it is still pretty great (like how he can manipulate all traces of his virus at the Molecular level). Well, he is kind of open to infecting everything but those that he personally deems to not be worthy of being "a part of his new world", and the last time he has unleashed his viral vapour, he did it while some random civilian (most likely homeless) was sleeping on a bench, and that civilian got infected anyways (so clearly, Mercer isn't against infecting random people if they weren't infected beforehand). Also, it's highly unlikely that Mercer would even turn Vanilla into an Evolved here, as Vanilla is his enemy in this scenario. The virus Mercer infected Heller with is of the Evolved strain, and Mercer can just turn him into one of the mindless infected instead (which he would most likely do, as it appears that only the specific individuals that he chooses would get the Evolved strain, so he probably wouldn't grant such a strain to Vanilla due to likely not being worthy or something).

Riley said that much of the Blacklight Virus in Heller's system should have killed him (but it probably didn't because of the protagonist plot abilities Heller has, which is also what prevented Heller from being consumed by Mercer via touch), so clearly Mercer can control how lethal he wants his Blacklight Virus to be. The fact that a variant of the Blacklight Virus has a 99.999% Mortality rate also supports my point. Vanilla would likely die in the most agonising ways that cancer couldn't hope to match upon being infected by the Blacklight Virus, or he'll just end up as one of the mindless infected that Mercer has control over. Otherwise, Mercer can just simply mindhax (Mind Manipulation is one of the abilities Mercer should gain from Elizabeth Greene as he has consumed her, thus should have all of her abilities) the infected Vanilla Ice (who lacks resistance to Mind Manipulation), since he was managing a viral hivemind that contains millions of minds and such (81% of Manhattan's population is just more than a million, I've reckon. Since we scale the potency of Mind Manipulation via the volumes of minds affected... Yeah). Those infected beings such as Brawlers, Juggernauts, Goliath, Flyers, Walkers, etc. clearly didn't came out of nowhere, so Mercer isn't against infected random civilians (invalidating your argument about his viral gases not being his go-to ability).

2) Okay.

3) Already explained why Vanilla doesn't get the same Blacklight abilities that Heller or Mercer has due to reasons above. And how would you know that isn't his go-to ability for Prototype 2 Mercer (who clearly has a different mindset than his Prototype 1 self)? Last I've checked, he wasn't against infected a random civilian during the time he unleashed the red viral vapour (and other individuals nearby), and the enemies Mercer has faced on-screen in Prototype 2 (which is only James Heller and such) was already infected with Blacklight (why bother unleashing infected gases in something that is already infected?).

4) Well, that's because Mercer was messing around with Heller and was testing on whether or not Heller deserves his Evolved strain and he succeeded (Heller then became a "Prototype" instead of an Evolved because of some stupid "DNA" plot reasons that was never elaborated further, but whatever). And I've already explained the fact that he is not against infecting randoms (I'm pretty sure they are the ones that either dies or gets turned into a mindless infected). Why should he not infect someone with his lethal 99.999% strain or the same strain that turns individuals into mindless infected beings instead of the Evolved ones? Also, Mercer has several ways of detecting which individuals are infected with his virus and which isn't (he even has one of those abilities called "Infected Vision" which allows such), so he would definitely know when Vanilla is not infected by his virus. I don't know why you're persistent in trying to lowball Mercer's capabilities here, but I've already just explained my reasons above.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Don't quote huge walls of text please.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

In general walls of texts can hurt anyone's eyes..... I mean I'm guilty of doing that here but I'll limit myself.

But yeah don't quote. Just respond. Anyway...


1) That's fair. But that's also generalisation on the idea. Also nothing's really stopping VC from using his Stand to filter out the gas and staying safe thanks to his ability. We don't know how infection would affect other things anyway.

"Cause Plot" isn't a good thing to use as a defense against a point in a VSB thread. Regular humans would 99.99% die. But what of other beings that don't exactly need organs or so? We're gonna end up in a speculation feud if we do.

Or you know. His infected army caused more infections or it's how he does things like in the first game? Not convinced. A hivemind is fine, but this point relies too much on assumptions.

3) I also visibly remember the infected only started popping up after you free Greene and not when he spread that gas vial.

4) Messing with him sure. I'll ditch the plot issue and take your word on Alex acting competently.

The only lowball I'm doing is Alex performing the optimized and best way for him to do.

• You assume that he would immediately blow up the building for no reason aside from Vanilla having an off body that's not really normal despite vampires in Jojo being quite close to being human, Regenerationn aside.

• You're discarding the fact that in the first place the moment Vanilla's Stand is activated, Vanilla is unseen.

• You're ignoring the fact that the moment Vanilla attacks, he's gonna take out more than half if not Alex's entire form.

• You're also ignoring the fact that even if he regenerates he still has no idea how to attack Vanilla properly and would probably be more focused on survival than spreading infection to an invisible enemy and the fact that his Regenerationn is cancelled by the fact that Vanilla can literally just keep aiming for those regenerating bits that he sees.

That's all there is to it. Compared to a Jojo character Alex is not as strong as he usually is.

Edit - To detail, I'm just not convinced that a guy who spatially destroys someone would give Alex a chance. If we're gonna claim character stupidity I'm gonna have to do the same for Alex. Anyway that's all for now, likely good for this debate.

 

[DeathNoodles]

1) Vanilla being a vampire (especially one with just potentially High-Mid rgeneration) is irrelevant as Blacklight is capable of infecting living beings (both humans and animals, via scaling to Redlight infecting animals in the Prototype comics, which is canon) and inanimate objects alike (like its predecessor) right down to their very cells (except for when infecting inanimate objects, as those don't have cells at all) at least. Vanilla Ice being a vampire would not save him from his own cells killing him from inside out (which is worse than just having one's own organs fail on them. Think of like cancer in regards to your very own cells going wrong and harming your body, but much worse). So 99.999% Mortality rate still applies here.

Vampires in Jojo's Bizarre Adventures are literally just humans having the full potential of their brains unlocked by some ancient mask made out of stone (or being turned by an another vampire's blood drops on their corpse, but it doesn't change the fact that the origin of vampires came from acupuncture that unlocks their brain's full potential), so there really isn't any reason to assume they're more than just some physically superior humans with some flashy abilities physiological-wise (Dio even almost died due to hamon and managed to barely escape as a severed head. Here, Vanilla doesn't have such leeway as even a single trace of Blacklight entering his body and would multiply similarly to how viruses in real life does, but worse. As the Blacklight scales to the feats of its predecessor, the Redlight Virus, being able to infect inanimate objects, there's no reason that suggests that Mercer's Blacklight infection can't just ignore the "undead" properties of Vanilla's body entirely. Vanilla doesn't even have Type 7 Immortality listed in his profile, which is a type of immortality listed for officially undead characters, so I doubt Vanilla can resist Blacklight just from the sheer fact that Vanilla is considered to be technically "dead" alone). Also, I did not assume anything for Blacklight's infection capabilities as everything I argued involves canon feats or statements in some way. In contrary, it seems to me that you are the one assuming (or heavily implying) that Vanilla gets resistance to an extremely deadly and infectious disease like Blacklight just because he is a vampire (this is not how it works on this site. If a character doesn't have any feat or evidence of having resistance to a specific ability/hax, then they don't. It's as simple as that). The only thing I have assumed is Mercer's behaviour for why he didn't kill/infect Dana and Amaya, but literally no one knows the full reason why he didn't just kill/infect Dana or Amaya right away in the mess that is Prototype 2.

2) Sure, Vanilla can avoid the viral gases as a void sphere for sure (which he is fighting blindly in by the way), but not while his cream is at its normal state (as in, his stand is at a state where it is no longer invulnerable but it can swallow stuff. I'm not arguing that Mercer can affect Vanilla's stand, I'm arguing that Mercer can affect Vanilla himself due to either peeking out or having his stand swallow viral vapours in and get infected). I've just rebrushed my knowledge on Jojo, and every information I have found links to Vanilla being in the same unknown dimension that he sends his targets to (with him being the only one unharmed by the effects of the dimension while inside it). I've checked on Vanilla's fight between Polnareff/Iggy, and it didn't say that Vanilla doesn't know where Avdol is, just that he doesn't know where the dimension leads to and that Avdol is dead (which proves that Vanilla knows what has happened to him. For that to happen, he must've seen where Avdol disappeared off to in the Void dimension, thus is evidence that he is in the same dimension that he sends his target to. This means that my point about Vanilla ending up infecting himself by sucking the viral gasses in is still valid).

3) Those infected are of the Redlight Virus, not Blacklight (proven to the fact that the infections in Prototype 2 is referred to as the "Second outbreak", which is the Blacklight outbreak. The first one was the Redlight Virus). The infected I was talking about are the Blacklight infected in Prototype 2. If you didn't know already, I was using Prototype 2 Mercer in terms of mindset (hence, why I've talked about Mercer unleashing his viral gases at the beginning of a fight, an action that would've been out-of-character for Prototype 1 Mercer to do unless he has gotten desperate enough to resort to that later on in a fight).

4) Okay.

Okay.

Point 1: When have I argued that Mercer blows up a building at the beginning of a match? Most of my arguments was about Mercer using his viral gases and why Vanilla wouldn't be able to avoid it once he peeks out. I'm pretty sure I have never said anything about him destroying the entire building, just that he floods the entire building with his viral gasses. I have argued that he would punch a hole through a window/wall to strategically stay out of the building after the gas flooding, sure, but not him destroying the entire building they're in (though it does definitely take away Vanilla's homefield advantage. I doubt he is familiar with his home being a piles of rubble rather than an intact structure).

Point 2: I didn't ignore that fact, hence why I've said he is undetectable as a void sphere. That still doesn't stop Mercer from just flooding the entire building with viral gasses and infecting everything because of his Prototype 2 mindset though. The moment Mercer senses even something slightly off or living, well, here comes the red viral "smokescreen" (which, with no prior knowledge on Mercer, Vanilla would assume that type of gas is a smokescreen used for distraction at best, and then gets infected as a result).

Point 3: I've re-checked Vanilla's fight and he didn't destroy a person's body completely as a void sphere, only when Vanilla stops being a void sphere and uses its mouth. Not like that matters, because I've already argued about Mercer's thresholds for his Regenerationn in the Raiden vs Alex Mercer match as a puddle with a crow's biomass, so I don't need to repeat it here (especially when Mercer is supposed to be at his strongest, possessing enough biomass to have Heller being able to unleash tendrils that encompasses all of New York City upon being consumed. He should have more than enough biomass to regenerate even faster than when he was a puddle in Prototype 1. And it's not like Mercer literally can't heal when low on biomass, because he can, just very slow in comparison to how he usually heals. Mercer's Health Regenerationn in the game proves that. And yes, game mechanics feats are allowed on this site, as I have seen many other video game characters have their capabilities be based on game mechanics and still be valid in a debate).

Point 4: Again, Vanilla is blind as a void-sphere. He doesn't need to know where Vanilla is, just that he was once there or that something very off-putting is happening so that Mercer can unleash his viral gases and flood the entire building (just like how Mercer flooded an entire district with his viral gasses in Prototype 2, and gotten practically the entire city crawling with infected). And Vanilla needs to peek out to even see the "regenerating bits" you're talking about, but the moment he does that he gets infected by the viral gasses. Vanilla is only ever truly safe from the infection if he hides in his stand for the rest of the fight, but at that point he would be blind and would have to rely heavily on luck or homefield familiarity (even that can only get him so far, as he struggled to even know where Polnareff and Iggy are. And don't say it's PIS, as that was Vanilla Ice's only appearance in a fight, and there are no other scenes he's in that contrasts the mindsets he has shown in the fight, as Vanilla's fight with Polnareff and Iggy was the only fight he appeared in. Thus, the stupidity shown by Vanilla isn't "PIS", but rather "CIS", as there are no other reasons to prove that he did those actions because of the plot instead of the fact that it could be his character flaws, so there aren't any true reasons for why Vanilla shouldn't have those character flaws as that was his only appearance in a fight. On the other hand, there are several scenes for Mercer to show off his mindset, and we divide his mindset based on either his Prototype 1 or Prototype 2 self. Since that isn't Mercer's only appearance in a fight, we can argue about PIS being used against Mercer as there can be actions that contradict his abilities because of plot, unlike Vanilla who only has one Arc for his fight, thus we just use the high-end version of the character's abilities to minimise the confusion) to even inflict the damage he needs to win (easier said than done due to his limitation of being blind in a void sphere). That limitation is the main reason why I've argued Mercer would win, as Vanilla Ice can't really fight at his best at all if he fights blindly in his void sphere for the rest of the fight, and would end up with Vanilla getting infected and losing as there are no other reasons to prove that it isn't in-character for Vanilla Ice to peek out (and get infected in the process).

While PIS generally isn't a good thing to use in a debate, CIS however is still perfectly valid (as it's all part of the character's personality flaws and not because of events that happens due to plot). Even the intelligence section in Vanilla Ice's profile says this:

'Intelligence: With CIS on, Cream isn't used properly by Vanilla

Really though, Vanilla's limitation and character flaws (including his tendency to peek out every time to know where his opponents is, and such) would be the main reasons he loses here. When I've re-checked Vanilla's fight with Polnareff and Iggy, I have found no instance of him using his void sphere state to hide underground either (the closest he has gotten to that is hiding under the crack under Polnareff's foot, but he didn't exactly do so in a void sphere state), making your previous point of Vanilla hiding underground with his stand moot as it is not even truly in Vanilla's character to think of such a tactic and take advantage of it (Vanilla's Intelligence section doesn't even list him as a Extraordinary Genius like Joseph, or just plain Genius or even Gifted, so we don't even have any sound reasons to prove why he can think up strategies outside of what the canon depicted of him on-screen, unlike Mercer who has his Intelligence section describe military tactics and combat as a part of his intellectual abilities that he could likely use outside of just on-screen feats of his strategy skills in battle).

You're stating that I have "ignored" all these things in your points, when it seems to me that you have ignored Vanilla being blind under that void state (or so it appears to me, since a lot of your arguments are dependent on the fact that Vanilla can see where Mercer is when he can't as a void sphere, and him having some home field advantage, which didn't even help him much against Polnareff and Iggy).

Yeah, Mercer can't contend with certain Jojo characters because of their hax, so? I highly doubt mainstream Dio has the AP needed to even damage Mercer in this site, regardless of his time stops and his stand's speed. Most of the stands that Mercer literally has no chance against would be stand users of stands like Gold Experience Requiem, D4C, Tusk Act IV, Killer Queen: Bites The Dust, Made in Heaven, etc. Which isn't relevant in this thread in any way, so... Yeah.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Icy Boi FRA

 

[DarkWraths]

Alex Mercer FRA

 

[Sir_sun_man]

@Sir Sun
Basically, well... Here in VSB if a character does something stupid in their franchise and seems a bit OOC, we justify whether or not it's their thinking process or if it's PIS. Also it's not as if he doesn't stop to observe his surroundings time to time.

Yeah. Even with the vault thing. You can argue that it's because of her special blood but Alex was talking about making her a Queen iirc. He had no reason to not change her unless there's something anti-villain going on like him wanting to make a hero out of an enemy. Which is cool but speculative sadly. That's why I can't say if that's his go-to ability that's active all the time.

No worries. That's also true that Alex can regen, but while he's stunned at the sudden disappearance of biomass, that's still a percentage based on his health and biomass ratio. He's gonna regenerate for sure, but at that point Vanilla is going for another attack probbaly. The first attack Vanilla did involved him taking out the entire body of someone after all. High possibility that he does the same to Alex. Well, we can't really say if Alex was A-okay after that crow incident. Major consensus implies that the nuke that he barely dodged was amost enough to take him out despite it being underwater. There's a limitation to his ability to recover basically. Much like how the Supreme Hunter who's close to him can do the same. It's an enforced feat by the sequel. Also if Alex is trying to regenerate, Vanilla Cream would go for him again upon realizing that and even if he can regen well, he's gonna die if Vanilla hunts down every bit of him.

That's fair, that's on me. Still, jojo stands are quite powerful anti-hax.

@DeathNoodles

You have provided not a single detail about why Alex has a reason to keep Dana and Maya safe from being infected. He wasn't using them to barter against James, he had no purpose on not keeping them infected. Alex isn't as competent as people think.

the problem with that is to see that mercer is gona regen he needs to pop up from cream it makes him really vanrable(thats how polnareffe poped him in the face with silver chariot) even if mercer dosen't use his AOE's or his viral spores he could just go for creams face and you know low 7c attack potency vs 8c durability means insta death

basicly the second he pops up from cream its preaty much death

and about the dana and maya thing lets be honest its just PIS he should've infected maya the second he got his hands on her(or maybe she just couldn't survive the infection at that age but who knows) and dana is more old connection to mercers femily

 

[DeathNoodles]

I hope nobody gloss over the CIS that Vanilla Ice suffers from, especially since that CIS (which is generally valid in a debate, unlike PIS) would be one of the main deciding factors for this match.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Fluff. Lots of fluff. If Alex has full control of the virus he wouldn't have to be so worried about the issue of the antivenom thing to the point that he had to use trickery instead of out adapting a cure. Dana not being infected doesn't provide any proof that he's open to infecting everything. Also frankly, infecting someone is one of the worst things to do. Cause the last time he infected anyone, you got a Hell-er of a problem.... hehe. But no seriously, bad move and the only reason why James was the one infected is because he's the protagonist. Unless you want someone that has a Stand and Alex Mercer's powers, that's likely a horrible idea to do that. Also Dana working with a resistance group and betraying Alex is grounds for getting killed. Last time Alex's girlfriend did the same she was dead right after.
Yes plot reasons. But this is starting to veer off main topic so I'm not gonna address that since we seems to agree that Prototype 2's plot is stupid but it's what happened.

This is veering to speculative headcanon theory on some sections. Either way I didn't say he can't infect Amaya and Dana, I was saying it's not his go-to ability. Regardless bad move to use that on a vampire and him controlling Evolved or infected is only partial. Considering that James is one key rebel against him.

Invoking plot holes and PIS doesn't deny the existence of said feats. Alex doesn't actively infect everyone with gas. Otherwise he would've done so from the start with James on their first encounter. Frequency of abilities affect how likely they are to be used.

well the whole james thing is the good old chosen one plot which is masked under the " Oh he has resilent DNA" cop out as seen in the whole of NYC being screwed up beyond repair with 2+ million being nothing more then zombies and mercer never really feared the white light cure(since its quite simular to blood tox that was only dangures to mercer for like 3 days before it became useless) he wanted to use it for spreading the infection without resistence masked as a cure that was a preaty big part of the plot in P2 but you know its undercooked cuse prototype 2

and his incompitence is preaty much PIS for the most part since in P1 he was quite compitent out playing the black watch on preaty much every step and now some angry militery guy he infected a week ago a guy who bearely has any expirence with the virus vs mercers 2 years worth of expirence and he was beaten cuse plot convinese

 

[Sir_sun_man]

I hope nobody gloss over the CIS that Vanilla Ice suffers from, especially since that CIS (which is generally valid in a debate, unlike PIS) would be one of the main deciding factors for this match.

whats CIS never heard of it before\

is it charater insudsed stupidity or charater is stupid?

 

[DeathNoodles]

I hope nobody gloss over the CIS that Vanilla Ice suffers from, especially since that CIS (which is generally valid in a debate, unlike PIS) would be one of the main deciding factors for this match.

whats CIS never heard of it before\
is it charater insudsed stupidity or charater is stupid?

CIS

Also PIS just to emphasise the differences anyways.

The only limitation of CIS that is generally ignored (and not considered valid in a debate) is unwillingness to kill their opponents in battle due to Standard Battle Assumptions removing the characters' desire to not kill so that we could even have a debate in the first place. Otherwise, that's it, so other character flaws in combat are valid.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

and its now

mercer: 3 (me, noodles,darkwraths)

ice:3 (tacticalnuke,Iapitus The Impaler,Ciruno)

 

[Sir_sun_man]

In general walls of texts can hurt anyone's eyes..... I mean I'm guilty of doing that here but I'll limit myself.
But yeah don't quote. Just respond. Anyway...


1) That's fair. But that's also generalisation on the idea. Also nothing's really stopping VC from using his Stand to filter out the gas and staying safe thanks to his ability. We don't know how infection would affect other things anyway.

"Cause Plot" isn't a good thing to use as a defense against a point in a VSB thread. Regular humans would 99.99% die. But what of other beings that don't exactly need organs or so? We're gonna end up in a speculation feud if we do.

Or you know. His infected army caused more infections or it's how he does things like in the first game? Not convinced. A hivemind is fine, but this point relies too much on assumptions.

3) I also visibly remember the infected only started popping up after you free Greene and not when he spread that gas vial.

4) Messing with him sure. I'll ditch the plot issue and take your word on Alex acting competently.

The only lowball I'm doing is Alex performing the optimized and best way for him to do.

• You assume that he would immediately blow up the building for no reason aside from Vanilla having an off body that's not really normal despite vampires in Jojo being quite close to being human, Regenerationn aside.

• You're discarding the fact that in the first place the moment Vanilla's Stand is activated, Vanilla is unseen.

• You're ignoring the fact that the moment Vanilla attacks, he's gonna take out more than half if not Alex's entire form.

• You're also ignoring the fact that even if he regenerates he still has no idea how to attack Vanilla properly and would probably be more focused on survival than spreading infection to an invisible enemy and the fact that his Regenerationn is cancelled by the fact that Vanilla can literally just keep aiming for those regenerating bits that he sees.

That's all there is to it. Compared to a Jojo character Alex is not as strong as he usually is.

Edit - To detail, I'm just not convinced that a guy who spatially destroys someone would give Alex a chance. If we're gonna claim character stupidity I'm gonna have to do the same for Alex. Anyway that's all for now, likely good for this debate.

3) thats prototype 1 not 2 in 2 he just spreads the spores onces and the whole of NYC was done in few days

 

[Sir_sun_man]

In general walls of texts can hurt anyone's eyes..... I mean I'm guilty of doing that here but I'll limit myself.
But yeah don't quote. Just respond. Anyway...


1) That's fair. But that's also generalisation on the idea. Also nothing's really stopping VC from using his Stand to filter out the gas and staying safe thanks to his ability. We don't know how infection would affect other things anyway.

"Cause Plot" isn't a good thing to use as a defense against a point in a VSB thread. Regular humans would 99.99% die. But what of other beings that don't exactly need organs or so? We're gonna end up in a speculation feud if we do.

Or you know. His infected army caused more infections or it's how he does things like in the first game? Not convinced. A hivemind is fine, but this point relies too much on assumptions.

3) I also visibly remember the infected only started popping up after you free Greene and not when he spread that gas vial.

4) Messing with him sure. I'll ditch the plot issue and take your word on Alex acting competently.

The only lowball I'm doing is Alex performing the optimized and best way for him to do.

• You assume that he would immediately blow up the building for no reason aside from Vanilla having an off body that's not really normal despite vampires in Jojo being quite close to being human, Regenerationn aside.

• You're discarding the fact that in the first place the moment Vanilla's Stand is activated, Vanilla is unseen.

• You're ignoring the fact that the moment Vanilla attacks, he's gonna take out more than half if not Alex's entire form.

• You're also ignoring the fact that even if he regenerates he still has no idea how to attack Vanilla properly and would probably be more focused on survival than spreading infection to an invisible enemy and the fact that his Regenerationn is cancelled by the fact that Vanilla can literally just keep aiming for those regenerating bits that he sees.

That's all there is to it. Compared to a Jojo character Alex is not as strong as he usually is.

Edit - To detail, I'm just not convinced that a guy who spatially destroys someone would give Alex a chance. If we're gonna claim character stupidity I'm gonna have to do the same for Alex. Anyway that's all for now, likely good for this debate.

you are also assuming that ice would have mercer lined up like he did with avdul. Also how dose the fight start how far away are they from one another since if they are up close then well mercer just punches ice ones and his dead if they are far apart it would make it more intresting

btw he took time to write down that if you turn around you'll die instead of killing all three of them at once since they were lined up makes me think that vanillas down fall is not PIS but him just being writen to be a moron because the only times we see him he acts preaty dumb, 1st time we see him he offers his blood to dio and instead of you know just pouring some blood he cuts his own bloody head off for no reason, the second time we see him he writes down a worining for avdul making him lose in the end as he wasn't able to kill polnareff which he would've been able to to if he didn't worn avdul, then he dosen't realise that he became a vampire after not only his head is regenarates back onto his body after he cut it off but also after polnareff stabs him in the mouth and in the head multiple times and also after he broke his ******* neck then he still runs into the sun and even after realsing that he is a vampire instead of useing his stand that transports him to another dimension he runs back into the sun because polnareff insulted him i just think that ice is legitamatly stupid and nothing else) not to metion that even if mercer dosen't see cream he could still see the massive holes he leaves in the walls he gose through and after being hit by it once i think he would at least try to move out of the basict tragectory of where the whole poped up

 

[TacticalNuke002]

@ Sir sun man

Stop quoting walls of text. Edit them out or something.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Bump

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Please for the love of God, stop quoting massive walls of texts.

Please don't bump threads until after 24 hours.

Christ's sake. Everything that he did was in context of Jojo levels of stupid. It's in verse. You want to argue that he's an idiot fine but this idiot is gonna eradicate Alex before he can do anything because even an idiot in a Battle to the Death would know to just attack, and he doesn't know Alex enough to be smug about anything.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Ice is not really stupid. Its just that he values his devotion to DIO above his own safety. And I heard that getting poked through your brain stem and brain and having your spine broken will make you act stupider than normal.

Unless Alex insults DIO for whatever reason, Ice is not going to act stupid.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Exactly. Then again I'm a manga reader so I don't know if he did anything more stupid looking in the anime but the manga/original source takes priority.

He had beef with Team Jojo. This random encounter with Alex isn't gonna make him underestimate.

 

[DMB_1]

Ice has 8-C dura

Why though? I don't remember him having any 8-C dura feats by himself.

What he does physically is pretty shallow even for an average vampire.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

He got stabbed by Polnareff plenty of times.

 

[DMB_1]

He got stabbed by Polnareff plenty of times.

All of which he was completely pierced with no problem, and some of the those times he would have actually died if it wasn't for his Immortality.

If I stab a piece of paper with a sword, that doesn't give it 9-C dura.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Polnareff promptly snapped his neck and Ice's head didn't fall off.

Edit: Also, if Mercer touches him anyway, Ice just loses. Durability is pointless

 

[DMB_1]

Snapping someone's neck doesn't necessarily make your head fall off, and again, every time Ice tried to attack Polnareff physically, he got always bodied by Chariot like it was nothing.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Wait, why are we discussing Durability here? If Mercer just touches him, Ice just dies regardless.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Christ's sake. Everything that he did was in context of Jojo levels of stupid. It's in verse. You want to argue that he's an idiot fine but this idiot is gonna eradicate Alex before he can do anything because even an idiot in a Battle to the Death would know to just attack, and he doesn't know Alex enough to be smug about anything.

And yet, that was the only appearance he has had in a fight, which means CIS applies here as he has no other scenes to showcase his combat mindset more. And Vanilla would have to do that before Mercer unleashes his viral gasses, and to do that he would have to get inside his stand immediately after the fight starts. As Standard Battle Assumptions assumes that there are no prep time or prior knowledge for the combatants, the fight would start with Vanilla appearing outside of his stand as Cream isn't a seperate Key for his tiers or a transformative state that he can turn into (unlike Mercer's Evolved Form, which is a transformative state he turns into upon gaining enough biomass, so he would have that amount of biomass by default). The instant Mercer sees Vanilla, he would most likely unleash his viral vapours straight away. Unlike Vanilla's fight with Avdol, Polnareff and Iggy, where he has time to prepare (I mean, how else would Vanilla be able to write down his threats on the stone? He certainly didn't do that right when the respective main casts was present in the same room), Vanilla wouldn't even be inside his stand straight away as he has no such preperation alongside Mercer.

As for the reasons for Vanilla's supidity in combat being due to his brain, brain stem, or spine being pierced/broken, I highly doubt that. With potentially High-Mid (or even just Mid) Regenerationn, Vanilla should be healed from any brain or nervous system damages that physical attacks has been inflicted on him, so I doubt that is the reason for his stupidity in combat. Also, that's a heavy amount of assumption of Vanilla's mindset you guys just did there. Heck, Vanilla has only been mainly insulted by Iggy due to Iggy's stand emulating DIO, whilst Polnareff just went along with whatever Iggy did (which shows why Vanilla attacked Iggy out of fury and not do the same for Polnareff until later on). From what I can see, Polnareff didn't even insulted Vanilla until Vanilla got harmed by sunlight, so that doesn't really excuse why Vanilla decided to physically attack Polnareff with his own body instead of his stand in one of those moments (which means Vanilla's CIS is a factor here, including Vanilla's tendency to peek out of his stand, which would get him infected in this fight as I have argued above). And you just assumed Vanilla wouldn't underestimate Mercer like the Jojo team due to not having a beef with him, which sounds like too much of a speculation when Vanilla's fight with Polnareff and Iggy was literally the only one he appeared in on-screen, especially since Vanilla doesn't have any other fighting scenes that cancels out that mindset. If anything, Vanilla's lack of knowedge about Mercer would precisely be the reason why he loses here.

Also, Mercer can just pull of a similar tactic to Polnareff (with his viral gasses instead of sand) after his viral vapours are flooded in the entire building to circumvent Vanilla's invisibility as a void-sphere. He can just sense the disturbances in his environment through seeing the sphere-shaped trails Vanilla's stand leaves as it continues to swallow whatever it makes contact with, allowing Mercer to sense where Vanilla is and dodge him. Plus, unlike Polnareff, Mercer wouldn't need to think up the tactic of scattering his gasses as he would already be unleashing those viral gasses upon seeing Vanilla anyways, allowing the method of detecting Vanilla to come to Mercer naturally. As I have already argued about Mercer's intelligence above (which is listed in Mercer's Intelligence section in his profile), he would likely think of such a tactic, and should be able to avoid Vanilla's void-sphere more often than not until Vanilla gets himself infected.

Edit: So, I've re-checked Vanilla's fight for Jojo's Bizarre Adventure again, and all the evidences I see about Vanilla Ice's stand swallowing matter as a void sphere links to it swallowing matter just like it does in a more humanoid shape with its mouth. This means that Vanilla's void sphere with his stand would end up swallowing the matter it makes contact with into its unknown dimension that Vanilla is in like his stand's mouth. At first, I thought Cream's void-sphere gets rid of matter differently than when it does so with its mouth (therefore, making Vanilla safe from the infected gasses as long as he hides inside his stand), but apparently that doesn't seem to be the case. So, how would Vanilla even avoid any viral gasses that Mercer unleashes when anything Vanilla does with his space-altering abilities ends up with the viral gasses being sent into the same dimension he hides in and getting himself infected (thus, dying an agonising death at the cellular-level, or getting turned into a mindless infected that Mercer controls)?

 

[CrackerVolley]

Bump

 

[CrackerVolley]

Bump

 

[Schnee_One]

Mercer for Deathnoodles reasoning.