The Multiversal Undertale CRT

[Roachman40]

I know that.

That's part of his motivation sure but I don't think this matters to this thread in any way?

Just wanted to expand on my point that ‘everything ends’ was likely a prediction of the destruction of the game world, is all.

He doesn't have all the traits but he has traits other Gaster followers have that regular monsters do not. You would need to look really deep into it to know that about the phone, and the fact that you can't use it with the followers doesn't tell us anything concrete about them as followers. Not saying Gaster by name is the point of his difference with the other followers; the fact that he may be saying something that could apply to Gaster w/o naming him directly. It is speculation, yes, and it coming from appearance and comparisons to similar characters makes it pretty straightforward on that.

The phone not working around gaster followers is something all 3 of them share, so if goner kid doesn't share this, it implies there isn't meant to be much of a connection between him and the gaster followers. Even then, it is still just speculation, as you said.

It's ok if you don't buy him being a ghost, but that too is a pretty straightforward thing to say. There are things to back it up as he looks undead and seems to be able to disappear in a supernatural way, if he doesn't just walk away when we don't see him.

What he says being what he thinks is the standard thing to take from his word, that takes no speculation/0 speculation to interpret, so you can't say it doesn't have things to back it up.

Him disappearing in a supernatural way I don't think means much, it seems he disappears off screen so we don't know for sure how he did it, Sans is capable of disappearing/’taking shortcuts’ offscreen and he aint a ghost, for example. Goner Kid looking ‘undead’ doesn't really hold up either imo, theres nothing much to back up this statement other than 'he kinda looks like it'.

That is the biggest point against your take, it's a logical issue that pops up pretty quickly when you think of the worldbuilding rules you went with (Well, you quoted someone else and I had to pick them up: )

• All timelines already exist in UT
• There are up to 100 of them
• LOADs and Resets change the characters from 1 timeline to another and they may end up in the same timeline more than once
• There is only 1 of every character
  Meaning; Let's say all characters are in timeline 1, so timelines 2 up to 100 don't have anyone in them (They're wastelands). If someone creates a house in timeline 1, how does this house get made in timeline 2 (and the rest of the timelines)? If someone moves a chair in timeline 1, how does this chair move in timeline 2? And so on, living beings (and ghosts that exist in UT) interact and change the world around them all the time, and this power moves all characters from 1 timeline to another timeline that will somehow be the same at any time. This utterly doesn't make any sense, it's completely nonsensical.
  Could there exist a verse with this rules? Sure thing, but look at the evidence that makes you reach this conclusion in UT's case;
  • You only know about the fun values by editing the game, that doesn't count
  • The most generous take on what Goner Kid said doesn't fully do it on its own, it would only mean "there may be another world"

Im not sure if im wording this correctly, but as said above, the timelines you aren't in are stopped until frisk and the characters are ripped from the old timeline into the beginning of a new one. The characters being brought into the beginning of a new timeline would explain why they where capable of building all of this, considering, well, they are brought into the 'beginning of history', so to speak.

Although, perhaps I could give another interpretation of 2-C to think of, if needed.

• All Timelines already exist in UT
• There is only 100 timelines (The FUN Values, the peculiar events that happen naturally without the influence of frisk or flowey)
• RESETs travel you to a new timeline (Resetting stops one timeline and starts a new one, although you can revisit an old timeline by starting it again)
• Versions of the characters exist in all of the timelines, which does not include frisk or flowey

Although if we take this interpretation of 2-C into consideration, I suppose this part of your problem applies.

It makes no sense for there to be more than 1 timeline yet only 1 Frisk as all characters would be pretty much talking to nothing and all of Frisk's actions would be done by nothing as they're not there. If they all have a Frisk then they would all have a player, which they can't given what the player is, which there is only one. How does this fit with timelines stopping/ending? (ie why do we say there are many timelines existing when we're told those don't exist anymore.) Why do Chara and Asriel use "world" in conversations together but then one uses it as in "the timeline" and the other as in "the game", is the game not the multiverse? Since you didn't elaborate that whole part I don't get to know the mechanics you picked up aside from the nobility of claiming there is possibly a multiverse somehow.

I am rather confused on what you mean by 'as all characters would be pretty much talking to nothing and all of Frisk's actions would be done by nothing as they're not there'?, if frisk didn't exist in the timeline the characters would just do what they would normally do without a human around. For your second point, what says that frisk needs a player to control them? they are definitely capable of doing things independent from the player, flowey even alludes to this in his statement about the TRUE RESET.

• You know who I'm talking about, don't you?
• That's right.
• I'm talking about YOU.
• YOU still have the power to reset everything.
• Toriel, Sans, Asgore, Alphys, Papyrus, Undyne...
• If you so choose...
• Everyone will be ripped from this timeline...
• ... and sent back before all of this ever happened.
• Nobody will remember anything.
• You'll be able to do whatever you want.
• ...
• That power.
• I know that power.
• That's the power you were fighting to stop, wasn't it?
• The power that I wanted to use.
• But now, the idea of resetting everything...
• I...
• I don't think I could do it all again.
• Not after that.
• ...
• So, please.
• Just let them go.
• Let Frisk be happy.
• Let Frisk live their life.

• And then, at last, we have how Sans & Flowey refer to LOADs/Resets as "everyone being ripped from the timeline back in time with no memory", THAT leads to the idea of timelines existing with no one in them, but what they said is clearly poetic, all the living beings in the universe aren't being warped into another universe, it's just a dramatic way of saying "turning back time makes others don't remember their actions in the time that was turned back". I cannot understate how much this was blown out of proportion, are you able to see the immense leap in logic done for UT to be a multiverse by this worldbuilding rules?

Alright but consider the evidence all at once, instead of in a vacuum. Sans' statement supports the interpretation that Flowey's line was actually hinting multiple timelines at once.

“*Everyone will be ripped from this timeline...
*…and sent back before all of this ever happened.
*Nobody will remember anything.”

“our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum.
timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting…”

Both of these statements together support the interpretation that an old timeline stops and a new timeline begins, I explained this a bit in the OP, even.

So there, 2 interpretations for 2-C of which are reasonable, I would think.

That is completely irrelevant to how they use 1 word every time they used that word. Edit: Also that was Asriel before inheriting Chara's views and evil desires for the world, before sharing their "In this world, it's kill or be killed" view on the world. So there is that.

That's because world and timeline are pretty synonymous, Flowey did all that in the same timeline being changed by himself. If they weren't synonymous, Asriel saying that he would nuke the timeline and take control of it should be him saying that he would nuke all timelines and take control of all timelines from Frisk, not just the timeline they're in. You're using the premise that the world is already a multiverse.

My point still stands that just because world is used in a certain context, doesn't mean its always used in that context. This could also be saying that flowey has done everything across these timelines (This is also backed up by sans statement, I believe, considering it is most likely that the anomaly is flowey and not the player)

also I believe this was brung up earlier in the thread, it seems you haven't responded to this already so I suppose I can bring it up.

The thing is with asriels context of "world". Every other time asriel refers to world before hand hes talking about it in reference to the game. In floweys genocide dialogue he indirectly referrs to the world as the game
"I've done everything this world has to offer. I've read every book. I've burned every book. I've won every game. I've lost every game. I've appeased everyone. I've killed everyone. Sets of numbers... Lines of dialogue... I've seen them all."

The whole dialogue is a reflection of how he treats everything as a game that hes testing the limits of it and does use "world" to reflect that, and basically believes its a game of kill or be killed. Also photoshop flowey describes how hell "destroy" the world (game) by show everyone its meaning of kill or be killed tying in to what asriel said.
Idk about the hyper goner, kinda debateable. Im not sure how the hyper goner itself would take control from frisk though even if it killed them. It was literally just a powerful that attack that may or may not have sucked the timeline.

The thing about the true reset as well is that it literally has the exact same effect on the game as what chara does (minus chara taking control of frisks soul and all) and outright says that it erases our progress and sets it back to zero. And yet youre meaning to tell me its basically just a normal reset with memory erasure that has no effect on the other timelines youve created? Not only that but flowey right after his "timeline ripping" statement says that the reset outright erases everything. It sounds like hes trying to put it in nicer terms to me than actually describe whats going on.

Even then, I do feel chara was speaking about the game world in there conversation with the player. They destroyed the game files and originally it was seemingly meant for the game to destroy itself once chara attacked. And if we take the 'everything ends' statement by sans as a prediction of the future, it solidifies that chara destroyed all the timelines and thus would scale to the cosmology.

 

[Eficiente]

sorry if this is a dumb question but why would each frisk need its own player, are frisk and the player the same person?

This was a good question as it would cover 1 of the things that make the "possibly 2-B" take impossible. Though as Greatsage13th said, they are separate entities.

The phone not working around gaster followers is something all 3 of them share, so if goner kid doesn't share this, it implies there isn't meant to be much of a connection between him and the gaster followers. Even then, it is still just speculation, as you said.

Ok.

Him disappearing in a supernatural way I don't think means much, it seems he disappears off screen so we don't know for sure how he did it, Sans is capable of disappearing/’taking shortcuts’ offscreen and he aint a ghost, for example. Goner Kid looking ‘undead’ doesn't really hold up either imo, theres nothing much to back up this statement other than 'he kinda looks like it'.

Depends on what you mean by "I don't think means much", is it personally or with everyone's ability to buy into this take? The latter should be simply straightforward by his undead looks/off colors+light relation to something supernatural.

Im not sure if im wording this correctly, but as said above, the timelines you aren't in are stopped until frisk and the characters are ripped from the old timeline into the beginning of a new one. The characters being brought into the beginning of a new timeline would explain why they where capable of building all of this, considering, well, they are brought into the 'beginning of history', so to speak.

That's an interesting solution, and this again is functional in many ways to think due to fitting in places. But on its issues

• (Same as before, I say it's functional as in, it can exist in its own verse and picking things here and there from UT fit to it, not necessarily that its rules make sense with all of UT. The worldbuilding has too many odd rules out of nowhere.)
• You aren't sure how to word it but timelines (minus the main one) are "stopped" while they still exist, this is not how Flowey words it, he says here and here that everything will be erased. You can't just take literally that the timelines are "stopped" based on Sans saying that once but then the idea of them not existing anymore as that may also imply, as Sans also implies and as Flowey says twice, can't be as literal. Timeline don't just "stop", they're all of time.
• What is "the beginningof a new one" here?:
  • If it's a full timeline, then it has all points in time in it, meaning that houses and all things are still made in them by nothing, as there is no one there to build them.
  • If it's not a full timeline, if it's only the beginning of it and the LOAD/Reset will cause the rest to make it a full timeline, then the idea of using fun values for them is nonsensical. This "timeline" could only be used once, then the environments changed in them will stay as they are on a LOAD/Reset, and so you wouldn't be able to revisit the timeline with contradictory changes to the environments. The headcanon of using fun values wouldn't work as its premise doesn't work, as it doesn't operate the same. You would only be grabbing a random something that there are 100 of and saying that there are 100 timelines due to it, w/o a reason to it.
• Flowey portrays the characters as being sent back before all that happened/set back and Sans portrays it as them ending back to the underground, so it wouldn't be the start of the timeline, only a certain start of their journey. This fits to how time turns back to a SAVE file or the start of the game, not the very start of the timeline.
• Nothing makes us believe that time turns back to the start of the timeline and then turns forwards to the last SAVE file or start of the game, and as such we cannot believe it.

Although, perhaps I could give another interpretation of 2-C to think of, if needed.

• All Timelines already exist in UT
• There is only 100 timelines (The FUN Values, the peculiar events that happen naturally without the influence of frisk or flowey)
• RESETs travel you to a new timeline (Resetting stops one timeline and starts a new one, although you can revisit an old timeline by starting it again)
• Versions of the characters exist in all of the timelines, which does not include frisk or flowey

Although if we take this interpretation of 2-C into consideration, I suppose this part of your problem applies.

I am rather confused on what you mean by 'as all characters would be pretty much talking to nothing and all of Frisk's actions would be done by nothing as they're not there'?, if frisk didn't exist in the timeline the characters would just do what they would normally do without a human around. For your second point, what says that frisk needs a player to control them? they are definitely capable of doing things independent from the player, flowey even alludes to this in his statement about the TRUE RESET.

Well, you are throwing up ideas, but not due to having the conclusions that make you reach those ideas, and that is not good. The characters can't do what they would do normally w/o Frisk as that annihilates cause & effect, imagine you're about to fight Undyne, SAVE, and LOAD, you would end up in a timeline where Undyne didn't come near you to fight you because you weren't there in that timeline. Imagine you kill a moster, SAVE and LOAD. Etc. on countless cases, it utterly doesn't work. Yes Frisk needs the player for their powers, Sans made this clear, you only show their control over Frisk by showing that "Just let them go. Let Frisk be happy.", the standard being to not let them go and have them. The player took control of Frisk in the game until the end of the pacifist run, hence Frisk has agency there, hence (allegedly) Frisk got flashbacks of the player's desire to increase their stats.

Alright but consider the evidence all at once, instead of in a vacuum. Sans' statement supports the interpretation that Flowey's line was actually hinting multiple timelines at once.


Both of these statements together support the interpretation that an old timeline stops and a new timeline begins, I explained this a bit in the OP, even.

So there, 2 interpretations for 2-C of which are reasonable, I would think.

That's not the case as they refer to the end of all things/everything being erased 3 times, which you omitted, and then 1 time the timeline stopping, which you took the liberty to interpret as the timeline "stopping" as in pausing literally somehow. No, this does not make sense.

My point still stands that just because world is used in a certain context, doesn't mean its always used in that context. This could also be saying that flowey has done everything across these timelines (This is also backed up by sans statement, I believe, considering it is most likely that the anomaly is flowey and not the player)

• Just because a word can be used both way that doesn't mean you can ingore 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (Also he states his power to be the ability to reshare the world, wasn's this on my blog?), 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 times it was used in its main meaning. This isn't some alt. reality but the main universe, so "multiverse" isn't even a meaning on "world" unless proven, and fitting how timelines "stop" isn't proof.
• You can't use as a premise that there are already timelines when this is what you try to prove.
• The anomaly is objectively the player, Sans refers to that name twice while making clear that he talks about "you".

also I believe this was brung up earlier in the thread, it seems you haven't responded to this already so I suppose I can bring it up.

The thing is with asriels context of "world". Every other time asriel refers to world before hand hes talking about it in reference to the game. In floweys genocide dialogue he indirectly referrs to the world as the game

>"I've done everything this world has to offer. I've read every book. I've burned every book. I've won every game. I've lost every game. I've appeased everyone. I've killed everyone. Sets of numbers... Lines of dialogue... I've seen them all."

The whole dialogue is a reflection of how he treats everything as a game that hes testing the limits of it and does use "world" to reflect that, and basically believes its a game of kill or be killed. Also photoshop flowey describes how hell "destroy" the world (game) by show everyone its meaning of kill or be killed tying in to what asriel said.

Not necessarily as I linked above all the times he did so. The world/timeline/game are pretty synonyms while the game and the world/timeline are also its own things, what about it? You would need to ignore how he says that he has the power to reshape the world if you think that means reshape the game, as he only reshares 1 timeline, not the multiverse. This doesn't achieve anything in your favor even ignoring that.

Idk about the hyper goner, kinda debateable. Im not sure how the hyper goner itself would take control from frisk though even if it killed them. It was literally just a powerful that attack that may or may not have sucked the timeline.

Please read the part of my blog that covers this, it makes no sense to say that it sucked the timeline.

The thing about the true reset as well is that it literally has the exact same effect on the game as what chara does (minus chara taking control of frisks soul and all) and outright says that it erases our progress and sets it back to zero. And yet youre meaning to tell me its basically just a normal reset with memory erasure that has no effect on the other timelines youve created? Not only that but flowey right after his "timeline ripping" statement says that the reset outright erases everything. It sounds like hes trying to put it in nicer terms to me than actually describe whats going on.

No, you confused things there. There is no "youre meaning to tell me its basically just a normal reset with memory erasure that has no effect on the other timelines youve created" when I don't claim other timelines to be a thing. You have no reason to conclude what to ignore+ignore something said twice in doing so, because what reasons hold that? He is describing the powers going on there w/o lying.

Even then, I do feel chara was speaking about the game world in there conversation with the player. They destroyed the game files and originally it was seemingly meant for the game to destroy itself once chara attacked. And if we take the 'everything ends' statement by sans as a prediction of the future, it solidifies that chara destroyed all the timelines and thus would scale to the cosmology.

Again, the world/timeline/game are pretty synonyms while the game and the world/timeline are also its own things. "Everything ends" refers to the timelines stopping, to the everything being erased Flowey said, since this is a thing Sans knew it happened many times and so it can't be something yet to happen, so it can't refer to Chara destroying the game. After a comment of this Sans goes in on how he feels about living in a world where that happens, "everything ends" being the same as "everything will be reset".

 

[Roachman40]

Depends on what you mean by "I don't think means much", is it personally or with everyone's ability to buy into this take? The latter should be simply straightforward by his undead looks/off colors+light relation to something supernatural.

Just because he 'looks undead' doesn't actually mean he is (mind ye hes literally just monochrome, its not like he has a rotten sort of color, or smthn), especially when there is nothing to back said statement up.

That's an interesting solution, and this again is functional in many ways to think due to fitting in places. But on its issues

• (Same as before, I say it's functional as in, it can exist in its own verse and picking things here and there from UT fit to it, not necessarily that its rules make sense with all of UT. The worldbuilding has too many odd rules out of nowhere.)
• You aren't sure how to word it but timelines (minus the main one) are "stopped" while they still exist, this is not how Flowey words it, he says here and here that everything will be erased. You can't just take literally that the timelines are "stopped" based on Sans saying that once but then the idea of them not existing anymore as that may also imply, as Sans also implies and as Flowey says twice, can't be as literal. Timeline don't just "stop", they're all of time.

That is because flowey is describing a TRUE RESET here, which acts sorta different to a regular RESET, evidently.

• What is "the beginningof a new one" here?:
  • If it's a full timeline, then it has all points in time in it, meaning that houses and all things are still made in them by nothing, as there is no one there to build them.
  • If it's not a full timeline, if it's only the beginning of it and the LOAD/Reset will cause the rest to make it a full timeline, then the idea of using fun values for them is nonsensical. This "timeline" could only be used once, then the environments changed in them will stay as they are on a LOAD/Reset, and so you wouldn't be able to revisit the timeline with contradictory changes to the environments. The headcanon of using fun values wouldn't work as its premise doesn't work, as it doesn't operate the same. You would only be grabbing a random something that there are 100 of and saying that there are 100 timelines due to it, w/o a reason to it.
• Flowey portrays the characters as being sent back before all that happened/set backand Sans portrays it as them ending back to the underground, so it wouldn't be the start of the timeline, only a certain start of their journey. This fits to how time turns back to a SAVE file or the start of the game, not the very start of the timeline.
  • Nothing makes us believe that time turns back to the start of the timeline and then turns forwards to the last SAVE file or start of the game, and as such we cannot believe it.

I am not sure what you mean here, while yes a full timeline will have all points in time in it there will be a point in time when those buildings where being made. Its not like the buildings somehow pop into existence, once the characters are transported to the newly started timeline and they start creating things those buildings are created. (I would also like to note how the history of humans and monsters and everything else still happens in such timelines, so its not like every character is transported to one point in time, and whatnot, history still happens and thus the characters who created those buildings existed and where able to create those buildings). like said I might not be wording it exactly right, but I hope you get what I mean.

Well, you are throwing up ideas, but not due to having the conclusions that make you reach those ideas, and that is not good. The characters can't do what they would do normally w/o Frisk as that annihilates cause & effect, imagine you're about to fight Undyne, SAVE, and LOAD, you would end up in a timeline where Undyne didn't come near you to fight you because you weren't there in that timeline. Imagine you kill a moster, SAVE and LOAD. Etc. on countless cases, it utterly doesn't work. Yes Frisk needs the player for their powers, Sans made this clear, you only show their control over Frisk by showing that "Just let them go. Let Frisk be happy.", the standard being to not let them go and have them. The player took control of Frisk in the game until the end of the pacifist run, hence Frisk has agency there, hence (allegedly) Frisk got flashbacks of the player's desire to increase their stats.

Only RESETS cause frisk to jump from one timeline to the next (SAVEs and LOADS are the things that cause the timelines to jump around, considering the time shenanigans they do, not the characters in them. LOADing doesn't change your FUN either, only RESETS do). For your second point, as said above, it is not confirmed if the player is actually an existing character, and this dosen't really disprove the fact that frisk can act independently on their own.

That's not the case as they refer to the end of all things/everything being erased 3 times, which you omitted, and then 1 time the timeline stopping, which you took the liberty to interpret as the timeline "stopping" as in pausing literally somehow. No, this does not make sense.

• Just because a word can be used both way that doesn't mean you can ingore 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (Also he states his power to be the ability to reshare the world, wasn's this on my blog?), 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 times it was used in its main meaning. This isn't some alt. reality but the main universe, so "multiverse" isn't even a meaning on "world" unless proven, and fitting how timelines "stop" isn't proof.

This doesn't really disprove my point, he could still definitely be talking about the multiverse here, LOADing reshaping the world dosen't really disprove my point either (Sans quite literally says 'timelines jumping left and right', which are caused by the LOADs and technically would mean that it is 'reshaping' the multiverse). Just because you can interpret it this way dosent disprove the other interpretation, its just a different interpretation of the same scans.

• You can't use as a premise that there are already timelines when this is what you try to prove.
• The anomaly is objectively the player, Sans refers to that name twice while making clear that he talks about "you".

Yes while Sans seems confident that this time-traveling human was the anomaly, I do feel his assumption is false.

I’ve done everything this world has to offer.
I’ve read every book. I’ve burned every book.
I’ve won every game. I’ve lost every game.
I’ve appeased everyone. I’ve killed everyone.
Sets of numbers… Lines of dialogue… I’ve seen them all.

Just before the Sans fight, Flowey states himself that he RESET/LOADed over and over long before Frisk arrived, easily disrupting the timelines enough to attract Sans’ attention. In fact, Flowey himself even states that he has fought sans which caused him 'a couple of RESETS'.

Considering this, it appears that Flowey has been avoiding sans, of which he stated so himself, so because Flowey has been avoiding Sans and Frisk is the time-traveling newcomer, It would make sense for sans to assume that Frisk was the anomaly all along.

Something also worthy to note, is that even if the player/frisk hasn't RESET or used the SAVE System at all, sans would still say the 'anomaly in space-time continuum' and 'timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting' line, which I feel solidifies that the anomaly isn't really the player/frisk.

Again, the world/timeline/game are pretty synonyms while the game and the world/timeline are also its own things. "Everything ends" refers to the timelines stopping, to the everything being erased Flowey said, since this is a thing Sans knew it happened many times and so it can't be something yet to happen, so it can't refer to Chara destroying the game. After a comment of this Sans goes in on how he feels about living in a world where that happens, "everything ends" being the same as "everything will be reset".

please read what I said here again. RESETS are the cause of a timeline stopping and another one starting yes? and considering sans is not fighting for the resets (which cause timelines to stop), I don't think he is referring to the 'stopping' of a timeline. Hell he says 'dont say I didn't warn ya' after you kill him.

I want to clarify on what I think sans means by "everything ends" btw. Sans says it as if it has happened before, which may imply “everything ends” refers to a reset. However, I feel it could just be that 'everything ends' is a prediction of sorts that sans noticed in the reports, and not something he experienced first hand. He doesn’t seem to be fighting the resets.



As seen here. He is aware of the resets happening, so it is noteworthy that it is only in the genocide route he would try to stop frisk from completing it. This also seems to support the interpretation that “timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting” refers to loads and resets. Thus, I don't think “everything ends” refers to a reset or smthn.


“seeing what comes next” implies that sans saw something in the report that concerned him enough to stop frisk from completing there mission. It’s not merely finishing the game that has Sans worried. He allows Frisk to reach the end multiple times in a neutral run, and even if try to do a genocide route, kill everyone but spare one random monster he will still let you go. Resets seem to be the cause of his depression but it still brings back papyrus and everyone. The destruction of everything, though, is much more dire.

 

[Eficiente]

Just because he 'looks undead' doesn't actually mean he is (mind ye hes literally just monochrome, its not like he has a rotten sort of color, or smthn), especially when there is nothing to back said statement up.

Let me remind what we are talking about here; you grabbed a take for what to make of Goner Kid's dialogue and put it into consideration because it made sense to you and because you had issues with the sense the other takes made. I pointed out how your take was done using immense speculation and jumps in logic, and you point out your issue with this other take because looking undead and being monochrome isn't the same as being undead? Yes I already know it's not objective, hence it is speculation, the point is that it takes far, far less speculation.

That is because flowey is describing a TRUE RESET here, which acts sorta different to a regular RESET, evidently.

I think I said "evidently" in the thread once or twice, falling back to prior reasons to things I gave. You saying "evidently" here is not the same at all, you don't have any evident reason as to why a TRUE RESET is different to a regular RESET in a way that the former would erase the timeline but the latter wouldn't, because the game does nothing to state that a TRUE RESET erases the timeline while a RESET or LOAD doesn't. It would just & simply be convenient for you that only a TRUE RESET does that because that way you can keep on pushing the idea that RESETs and LOADs don't, you have been doing this the whole thread, throwing ideas to see if they stick rather than concluding ideas based on the information the game gives, thus forcing other people (me) to go look the issues with that. "That power. I know that power. That's the power you were fighting to stop, wasn't it? The power that I wanted to use. But now the idea of resetting everything... I... I don't think I could do it at all again. Not after that." Flowey refers to a TRUE RESET as the same power he wanted to abuse and has used before, he makes no intent to difference it from a regular RESET or LOAD, and the fact that he has done so before while we never saw a TRUE RESET from him means that either of them are the same in all practicality we care of. They have differences, we know those differences, you can't make up new differences unsaid to fit a headcanon.

So, you can't say that they are not the same because you made that up and nothing in the game implies it, that it would fit some other headcanon isn't evidence, and descriptions of this powers go against this anyway.

I am not sure what you mean here, while yes a full timeline will have all points in time in it there will be a point in time when those buildings where being made. Its not like the buildings somehow pop into existence, once the characters are transported to the newly started timeline and they start creating things those buildings are created. (I would also like to note how the history of humans and monsters and everything else still happens in such timelines, so its not like every character is transported to one point in time, and whatnot, history still happens and thus the characters who created those buildings existed and where able to create those buildings). like said I might not be wording it exactly right, but I hope you get what I mean.

The fact that you don't even know what you want to state aside from "let Undertale be a multiverse" is immensely criticizable, you don't get to know how and why what you say lacks logic as you don't have it properly constructed, and regardless of it you are already ready to present it for others to deal with its issues or lack of thereof, you can't just hope the latter to be the case.

It is still utterly nonsensical to claim whole timelines to have no one sentient in them and everything in them was created, altered and destroyed by nothing, no this doesn't gain more sense on the premise that there will be sentient beings warped there to occupy that nothing because the issue remains that all things in the universe created, altered and destroyed before that by sentient beings were being created, altered and destroyed by nothing before it. Those timelines are like watching the same movie twice in a row, but the first time, all sentient beings in it were edited out while the reactions to their actions remain the same; you don't get to say that it makes sense as the second time there was people there because this does nothing to the nonsense that was the first time where there was no one.

The issue remains that Sans and Flowey portray this as sending people moments back, not from the very start of the timeline. The other issue remains that nothing states that this timelines start from the start of time, which means you can't claim so.

Only RESETS cause frisk to jump from one timeline to the next (SAVEs and LOADS are the things that cause the timelines to jump around, considering the time shenanigans they do, not the characters in them. LOADing doesn't change your FUN either, only RESETS do).

It doesn't make sense for SAVEs and LOADs to cause timelines to be "stopping and starting" yet credit the jump from 1 timeline to another timeline to something other than that, this is an example of what I meant before. Neither can you go back to this "stopped" timelines, because to you a "stopped" timeline still exists as it is, with all the reactions to the actions done in it still there, but all those need to be removed by the time you revisit it because you revisit it after a RESET, after which the actions may not be the same & thus the corresponding reactions aren't the same too, regardless of how teleported around the characters are. RESETs have to erase the timeline just like LOADs do. Don't try to answer this w/o fully knowing what a "stopped" timeline is because I already know you want UT to be multiverse, I want to know a how of it that makes any level of sense.

For your second point, as said above, it is not confirmed if the player is actually an existing character, and this dosen't really disprove the fact that frisk can act independently on their own.

It is proven to be so as Flowey and Chara talk directly to them, you can't just bring the idea that they are not real with no reason to back it up as you would be objectively wrong. You can't make up the scale of Frisk acting on its own to make it fit to some headcanon that needs many Frisks to be able to act w/o the player, the player gives Frisk pretty much the main thing that makes Frisk special, on this ground, it could not be more basic that many Frisks cannot exist. That easily disproves that Frisk would be able to act on its own because the story (like the geno run) simply does not function w/o Frisk having its powers, it is you who can't disprove that Frisk wouldn't be able to act across all the game on its own.

This doesn't really disprove my point, he could still definitely be talking about the multiverse here, LOADing reshaping the world dosen't really disprove my point either (Sans quite literally says 'timelines jumping left and right', which are caused by the LOADs and technically would mean that it is 'reshaping' the multiverse). Just because you can interpret it this way dosent disprove the other interpretation, its just a different interpretation of the same scans.

You ignored something I said twice before, if at any of those points he means "the multiverse", then his actions as Asriel don't make sense, as he would have previously directed the multiverse as you propose but then acted on the timeline only. You are implying that "reshape the world" doesn't refer to "reshape the timeline" due to the actions in it not being the same, as it is intuitive, but refers to "reshape the multiverse" because a side effect of the power moves timelines and that makes the multiverse look not the same, that is absurd, how does Flowey even know this trivia with his perception to this power being the same as yours but with more experience? Why does he communicate something this unintuitive when explaining the power?

Yes while Sans seems confident that this time-traveling human was the anomaly, I do feel his assumption is false.


Just before the Sans fight, Flowey states himself that he RESET/LOADed over and over long before Frisk arrived, easily disrupting the timelines enough to attract Sans’ attention. In fact, Flowey himself even states that he has fought sans which caused him 'a couple of RESETS'.

Considering this, it appears that Flowey has been avoiding sans, of which he stated so himself, so because Flowey has been avoiding Sans and Frisk is the time-traveling newcomer, It would make sense for sans to assume that Frisk was the anomaly all along.

Something also worthy to note, is that if I remember correctly, even if the player/frisk hasn't RESET at all, sans would still say the 'anomaly in space-time continuum' and 'timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting' line, which I feel solidifies that the anomaly isn't really the player/frisk.

You are ignoring context to come up with this conclusion (again), Flowey did so a long time ago, Sans' reports are resent. Flowey also portrays himself in a way that is meant to mirror how players may have approached their powers, ie the players having used those powers. The end of the pacifist run leads to the geno run by the final dialogue in it. The game acts in a way that makes more sense if already played it, particularly Sans stating his former friendship with the player, Sans' assumption of what the anomaly is is on the same line as this and clearly meant to be correct.

The game allowing you to get to the final boss of a secret run w/o LOADing and w/o having played the game before in an intuitive way is clearly a technicality, otherwise what Sans said about his friendship with you is wrong, him assuming the anomaly to be you is wrong, all that talk about the weight of your actions is meaningless and a tiny aspect of that gets to be interpreted differently.

please read what I said here again. RESETS are the cause of a timeline stopping and another one starting yes? and considering sans is not fighting for the resets (which cause timelines to stop), I don't think he is referring to the 'stopping' of a timeline. Hell he says 'dont say I didn't warn ya' after you kill him.

I already went over this above. In short, you made up the rules there in a way the game doesn't imply.
----
Edit: Btw, from what I was told, apparently the staff here stopped following the thread or putting their full attention to it a long time ago, sadly. It does motivate me to know this isn't the result of them do following the thread and putting their full attention to it tho.

 

[TioKill]

This seems interesting. The OP makes sense, but I have some questions:

1. Why does the act of resetting reveal the number of timelines on a Multiversal scale?
2. Why is the OP considering LOADing as Resetting?

 

[Greatsage13th]

This seems interesting. The OP makes sense, but I have some questions:

1. Why does the act of resetting reveal the number of timelines on a Multiversal scale?
2. Why is the OP considering LOADing as Resetting?

1.we never brought this up

2.no they didn't.

 

[TioKill]

1.we never brought this up

2.no they didn't.

I'm sorry, I barely skipped through the debate but even I could spot these arguments being brought up by the OP sides several times. The blog linked earlier calculated 17000 timelines off of Flowey resetting.

They use Sans' dialogue to justify it too
"Timelines stopping and starting". I'm just confused as to how that proves a 2-B multiverse, since each timeline wouldn't have to be new I believe.

Also yes, Omega Flowey's infinite loading is being counted as a 2-B evidence

 

[Greatsage13th]

I'm sorry, I barely skipped through the debate but even I could spot these arguments being brought up by the OP sides several times. The blog linked earlier calculated 17000 timelines off of Flowey resetting.

They use Sans' dialogue to justify it too
"Timelines stopping and starting". I'm just confused as to how that proves a 2-B multiverse, since each timeline wouldn't have to be new I believe.

Also yes, Omega Flowey's infinite loading is being counted as a 2-B evidence

Many worlds interpretation is used.

 

[TioKill]

Many worlds interpretation is used.

That makes actual zero sense, and I highly doubt either party is arguing for this.

 

[Eficiente]

I highly doubt either party is arguing for this.

The debate went into an immense amount of branches of options of things people may or may not agree with, most of which making no sense and having been discarded, regardless of how people may still agree on them. There are some conclusions to be made from there, but I would need more staff for it.

 

[TioKill]

The debate went into an immense amount of branches of options of things people may or may not agree with, most of which making no sense and having been discarded, regardless of how people may still agree on them. There are some conclusions to be made from there, but I would need more staff for it.

MWI needs a direct statement, it's such a specific theory, and vague that no interpretation of a single line would justify it. That one is outright headcanon, and shouldn't be on topic of official changes.

I do agree with the fun values being evidence of different timelines, as these values are only affected by a reset, which is stated to take everyone from "this" timeline to the beginning, starting it anew.

There isn't a single reason for the events to be different if we're resetting into the same timeline. Yet, the fun values cause some strange unprovoked events to occur. If it was just the exact same timeline, how could this be? Wouldn't the changes only occur if they're caused by us? But the FUN Events are independent from the player altogether.

That is why I believe Low 2-C Undertale is simply unreasonable, and has no evidence to prove it's limitation.

 

[Eficiente]

I have arguments above about it that you can touch if you want. The fun values can cause differences in the timeline, hence differences happen in the timeline, it's that simple. They may just be game mechanics too and those differences simply happen. You say

There isn't a single reason for the events to be different if we're resetting into the same timeline. Yet, the fun values cause some strange unprovoked events to occur. If it was just the exact same timeline, how could this be? Wouldn't the changes only occur if they're caused by us? But the FUN Events are independent from the player altogether.

as if those being alt. universes was the only take that makes sense.

 

[Eficiente]

That one is outright headcanon, and shouldn't be on topic of official changes.

I can't stop people from claiming whatever they interpreted out of this thread tho, you're gonna have to wait a long while for some staff to notice that and then do something about it, by putting care into all the logic behind the thread. I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.

 

[TioKill]

I have arguments above about it that you can touch if you want. The fun values can cause differences in the timeline, hence differences happen in the timeline, it's that simple. They may just be game mechanics too and those differences simply happen. You say

The values only triggered by timeline manipulation powers which are stated to take people from said timeline, in a sense that imply multiple ones existing, "can cause changes in the timeline because game mechanics"?

You're grasping very hard. You need to consider all the evidence compiled together. One cannot argue game mechanics, they are not essential to the core mechanics of the game, these Fun values trigger lore-related events, and even has a character speaking of different worlds, a line which you have to diminish so your point doesn't crumble.

You need to grasp for any suitable explanation to satisfy your point, aka confirmation bias, but no, if we have tangible evidence pointing towards the fact that resets changes the timelines we are currently on, which we do, then any reportable changes are key evidence that our timeline have been shifted to another one.

as if those being alt. universes was the only take that makes sense.

It is.

 

[Eficiente]

The values only triggered by timeline manipulation powers which are stated to take people from said timeline, in a sense that imply multiple ones existing,

They also state that the timelines "stop", that everything ends for them, and that everything will be erased, twice, communicating us that a reset erases the timeline left behind. Yes, people is ripped from one timeline to another, but that is simply poetic for time being turned back, there aren't actually a bunch of timelines with no sentient beings on them. That doesn't just sound bad, it's an utterly disfuncional and nonsensical thing to claim; Imagine characters are in timeline A and after a reset they will be sent to timeline B, ok, what is timeline B? How did all the manmade things in the world get made w/o humans? How did all the monster-made things get made w/o the monsters? How did all the changes to the world get made w/o them in the past before the reset?

"can cause changes in the timeline because game mechanics"?

You're grasping very hard. You need to consider all the evidence compiled together. One cannot argue game mechanics, they are not essential to the core mechanics of the game, these Fun values trigger lore-related events,

No, to just say "game mechanics" to things like this happening is standard, "a game has something that changes events in itself->those changes happen due to game mechanics, not the game having in itself many universes to each account for those changes". To point out how this is "not essential to the core mechanics of the game" is irrelevant as the "core mechanics" of the game is a random thing to point out, not something related to what makes or doesn't make somehing a game mechanic. To point out how "these Fun values trigger lore-related events" is also irrelevant because game mechanics can have lore-related events.

and even has a character speaking of different worlds, a line which you have to diminish so your point doesn't crumble.

"Yet another take on "a world where everything is exactly the same except you don't exist" may also be that the world/timeline can be the same except Goner Kid doesn't exist just like it can be the same with him existing, both cases may switch from each other in the same timeline via unknown means (the fun values we don't know about), which still makes what he said make sense. So what he says would refer to something real while there is still 1 timeline. As in, if someone you know talks you hypothetically about a world where they themselves are 5 cms taller then sure, they may be talking about alt. universes, but they may also simply mean this very same universe with that small change implemented."

There are other takes too on what Goner Kid said that don't relate to alt. universes at all:

• This thought he has is depressing, "a world where everything is exactly the same without one's existence" means a hypothetical world where "you" (himself or Frisk, likely the former) don't exist and nothing changes, the text not meaning as in "there exist other timeline in the multiverse". This is thematically fitting to his apparent mood with the reaction he gives to Frisk bringing an umbrella, finishing that by saying "Please forget about me" and saying "Please don't think about this anymore." if Frisk tries to talk with him again, Goner Kid also being gone if Frisk leaves and reenters the room, in which he was alone at the tip of a bridge in a dark place. I'm not saying he did anything in particular, but that the subtext of the comment was simply this off, or that this thought that terrifies him is little more than that. This is also a bit thematic for the player and/or Frisk, who may or may not leaving the Underground without being the hero they needed them to be, it may work on 2 levels.
• Goner Kid is a ghost or some kind of undead, based on his appearance and potentially supernatural way to disappear. Meaning that his comment may refer to a reaction he feels the world has on himself.
• He could be referring to what's happening to Gaster. Goner Kid not being a Gaster follower in the games files you can only see via editing the game doesn't matter, as far as a player knows, he looks like them, + he could be saying something that just so happen to be fitting to Gaster's lore without Goner Kid knowing that person, hence he's not a follower. If it needs to be said, the world where "you don't exist" wouldn't go as in Gaster having never existed, but having stopped "existing" from 1 present moment in time forwards.
• He could be referencing what the fun values do to the game without it being canon, like a character breaking the 4° wall to reference the audience or a number of other things that aren't in-canon there, this being a reference Goner Kid may or may not know he's doing. Undertale has many game mechanics as real things that exist in-universe, but not all of them, and a subtle reference to 1 doesn't necessarily make it canon.
• He could be referencing how sometimes a player may or may not see him; you play the game, you may or may not find certain things and if someone else plays the game then they may or may not find certain things in a different way. The results of both players is around the same regardless of minor characters they talked to or didn't talk to along the way, same with the results of all players. This are of course not the same world.

if we have tangible evidence pointing towards the fact that resets changes the timelines we are currently on, which we do, then any reportable changes are key evidence that our timeline have been shifted to another one.

The first part is correct, the second goes over the rest of the stuff above.

 

[TioKill]

They also state that the timelines "stop", that everything ends for them, and that everything will be erased, twice, communicating us that a reset erases the timeline left behind. Yes, people is ripped from one timeline to another, but that is simply poetic for time being turned back, there aren't actually a bunch of timelines with no sentient beings on them. That doesn't just sound bad, it's an utterly disfuncional and nonsensical thing to claim; Imagine characters are in timeline A and after a reset they will be sent to timeline B, ok, what is timeline B? How did all the manmade things in the world get made w/o humans? How did all the monster-made things get made w/o the monsters? How did all the changes to the world get made w/o them in the past before the reset?

Interesting.

First, you are manipulating the context of the lines flowey delivered. He is talking about memories and the ending/events everyone worked so hard for. Not Space-time Continuum.

Second, "Timelines stop and starting" is not evidence of one particular timeline stopping existing. Stopping and erasing are ions apart in context.

Third, "everything ends" delivered by Sans. Clearly talking about the reset. Doesn't mean the timeline stops existing, it just means it resets. The other sans-es line is also indication that there are multiple versions of the character across different timelines.

I go back at the fact we have multiple evidence of a multiverse, Low 2-C is out of the question.

No, to just say "game mechanics" to things like this happening is standard, "a game has something that changes events in itself->those changes happen due to game mechanics, not the game having in itself many universes to each account for those changes". To point out how this is "not essential to the core mechanics of the game" is irrelevant as the "core mechanics" of the game is a random thing to point out, not something related to what makes or doesn't make somehing a game mechanic. To point out how "these Fun values trigger lore-related events" is also irrelevant because game mechanics can have lore-related events.

If the game has established lore that messes with the timeline and time manipulation, as well as consequences to changing said timelines, then the Fun values are structural evidence of these differences. Even if we entertain the hypothesis that it's game mechanics, it does not matter, a different FUN value and different events are still evidence of different timelines in-lore, it is essential to lore itself, as most Gaster followers are found by these values.

You can call the technical values game mechanics (which are canon to Undertale anyway), it doesn't debunk my point. Again, do not attempt to explain the different FUN events with headcanon, it is been established to be connected to lore.

"Yet another take on "a world where everything is exactly the same except you don't exist" may also be that the world/timeline can be the same except Goner Kid doesn't exist just like it can be the same with him existing, both cases may switch from each other in the same timeline via unknown means (the fun values we don't know about), which still makes what he said make sense. So what he says would refer to something real while there is still 1 timeline. As in, if someone you know talks you hypothetically about a world where they themselves are 5 cms taller then sure, they may be talking about alt. universes, but they may also simply mean this very same universe with that small change implemented."

There are other takes too on what Goner Kid said that don't relate to alt. universes at all:

• This thought he has is depressing, "a world where everything is exactly the same without one's existence" means a hypothetical world where "you" (himself or Frisk, likely the former) don't exist and nothing changes, the text not meaning as in "there exist other timeline in the multiverse". This is thematically fitting to his apparent mood with the reaction he gives to Frisk bringing an umbrella, finishing that by saying "Please forget about me" and saying "Please don't think about this anymore." if Frisk tries to talk with him again, Goner Kid also being gone if Frisk leaves and reenters the room, in which he was alone at the tip of a bridge in a dark place. I'm not saying he did anything in particular, but that the subtext of the comment was simply this off, or that this thought that terrifies him is little more than that. This is also a bit thematic for the player and/or Frisk, who may or may not leaving the Underground without being the hero they needed them to be, it may work on 2 levels.
• Goner Kid is a ghost or some kind of undead, based on his appearance and potentially supernatural way to disappear. Meaning that his comment may refer to a reaction he feels the world has on himself.
• He could be referring to what's happening to Gaster. Goner Kid not being a Gaster follower in the games files you can only see via editing the game doesn't matter, as far as a player knows, he looks like them, + he could be saying something that just so happen to be fitting to Gaster's lore without Goner Kid knowing that person, hence he's not a follower. If it needs to be said, the world where "you don't exist" wouldn't go as in Gaster having never existed, but having stopped "existing" from 1 present moment in time forwards.
• He could be referencing what the fun values do to the game without it being canon, like a character breaking the 4° wall to reference the audience or a number of other things that aren't in-canon there, this being a reference Goner Kid may or may not know he's doing. Undertale has many game mechanics as real things that exist in-universe, but not all of them, and a subtle reference to 1 doesn't necessarily make it canon.
• He could be referencing how sometimes a player may or may not see him; you play the game, you may or may not find certain things and if someone else plays the game then they may or may not find certain things in a different way. The results of both players is around the same regardless of minor characters they talked to or didn't talk to along the way, same with the results of all players. This are of course not the same world.

I will ignore everything here. Not because responding to it is impossible, but because these sre hypothesis and theories about what the line means, again isolating it from all evidence presented to us by other citations of multiple worlds.

Alphys states that there are multiple timelines, Sans states timelines jump left and right, and then we have Goner Kid talking about different worlds where he doesn't exist, which is present in all fun values.

Looking at the full picture, the hypothesis that the line is supporting a Multiverse is simply superior. You can theorize about other meanings with no support all you want, we should go with the hypothesis that fit all the evidence around it.

 

[TioKill]

Interesting.

First, you are manipulating the context of the lines flowey delivered. He is talking about memories and the ending/events everyone worked so hard for. Not Space-time Continuum.

Second, "Timelines stop and starting" is not evidence of one particular timeline stopping existing. Stopping and erasing are ions apart in context.

Third, "everything ends" delivered by Sans. Clearly talking about the reset. Doesn't mean the timeline stops existing, it just means it resets. The other sans-es line is also indication that there are multiple versions of the character across different timelines.

I go back at the fact we have multiple evidence of a multiverse, Low 2-C is out of the question.

If the game has established lore that messes with the timeline and time manipulation, as well as consequences to changing said timelines, then the Fun values are structural evidence of these differences. Even if we entertain the hypothesis that it's game mechanics, it does not matter, a different FUN value and different events are still evidence of different timelines in-lore, it is essential to lore itself, as most Gaster followers are found by these values.

You can call the technical values game mechanics (which are canon to Undertale anyway), it doesn't debunk my point. Again, do not attempt to explain the different FUN events with headcanon, it is been established to be connected to lore.

I will ignore everything here. Not because responding to it is impossible, but because these sre hypothesis and theories about what the line means, again isolating it from all evidence presented to us by other citations of multiple worlds.

Alphys states that there are multiple timelines, Sans states timelines jump left and right, and then we have Goner Kid talking about different worlds where he doesn't exist, which is present in all fun values.

Looking at the full picture, the hypothesis that the line is supporting a Multiverse is simply superior. You can theorize about other meanings with no support all you want, we should go with the hypothesis that fit all the evidence around it.

By the way, reading through you blog, the fact you have to completely ignore and discredit this line by saying Alphys isn't a reliable source shows a very prominent bias against Multiversal Undertale. This alone should prove 2-C, the fact it has overwhelming support doesn't help you either.

Just realized this has been applied, someone should ask for it to be closed.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Alphys's line proves that there are alternative universes, I don't really see how that proves Chara and Asriel are 2-B tho

 

[TioKill]

Alphys's line proves that there are alternative universes, I don't really see how that proves Chara and Asriel are 2-B tho

Chara destroys the world that encompasses the entire multiverse. Asriel also was doing that. It's, like, very blatant.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Chara destroys the world that encompasses the entire multiverse. Asriel also was doing that. It's, like, very blatant.

The alternative universes Alphys talks about could be Deltarune for all we know, Chara and Asriel only threatened the "world", whatever that means

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to close this thread, as the revision here has been applied. Is that acceptable?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I don't think it should be closed yet, stuff is being debated here.

 

[TioKill]

I don't think it should be closed yet, stuff is being debated here.

It's just a back and forth with arguments that were disagreed by Staff.

 

[TioKill]

I was asked to close this thread, as the revision here has been applied. Is that acceptable?

Yes. The discourse here is over the conclusion of the thread. But since Staff already agreed to apply it, a new thread should be made to accommodate these complaints. I have made a new downgrade CRT for my issues with the current ratings, any disagreeing party should move to that thread instead of making this longer, as less people will read through later arguments in a gigantic thread

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Does that seem like a good idea to experienced members here as well?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Okay. Does that seem like a good idea to experienced members here as well?

Yep

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then. Thank you for the replies.

 

[Eficiente]

It's just a back and forth with arguments that were disagreed by Staff.

As I said here; from what I was told, apparently the staff here stopped following the thread or putting their full attention to it a long time ago.

I can reply to your last comment to what I said tomorrow and Roachman40 hasn't replied to my last comment to him. Roachman40, who created this thread, was arguing for "possibly 2-C" and "possibly 2-B", knowing Low 2-C had to be the main stat, and this being different to how the profiles were preemptively changed and are currently. Even ignoring how I believe 2-C and 2-B are wrong, the thread should not be closed.

Also that comment on staff was not even accurate, the debate I had with Roachman40 went into a number of new steps way past the last comments staff gave, they can't disagree with my arguments if they're not wrote yet.