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Hello all and welcome to possibly the last DMC CRT of this year, this time featuring Void "Mundus" being a Void 3.0
Some proposals already have some counters made by DontTalkDT, which I already countered too but on his request I will link ya'all to it.
In short a soul in Devil May Cry contains every aspect of existence for Demons, from minds to information and even their concept.
With all that in mind let us proceed to the meat of the thread.
Information
The page has this to say about information manipulation: Type 2: '''Fundamental:''' These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature
This fits perfectly with the information that makes up a demon as a demon's existence is something more fundamental than just the world. As we are told, a name is the concept of their existence, the basic principles that predate the demon world, a world that predates ''our world''. Why is this important? Well it is because Demons mold themselves after said names/concepts. This is the information the soul contains as the name is only a small part of the soul. As some other character says, "With just one act. The act of naming these demons the world will change... It's very simple To change the value of everything would be all too easy"
In short, the information the soul has comes from the name/concept of a demon. To change a name/information is to change the existence of a demon as a whole, a fundamental part of reality if you will, something that has happened many times in the series with Nelo Angelo/Vergil, Tony/Dante and the seven SINS being prime examples of it.
The second part of this thread pertains to the Void "Mundus" character we see in the second novel.
Void "Mundus"
During the events of Devil May Cry Volume 2, Dante and his partner Beryl are transported to a parallel universe in which everything went wrong. Humans betrayed Sparda and Mundus broke free from his seal decades earlier. In this universe Mundus has accomplished his goal, fusing the worlds together and becoming the sole ruler of all in existence, attaining a new form beyond anything seen in the verse so far.
Mundus is described as both the heart and the nexus of the demon world but that's not all. When Dante and Beryl travel to the castle of the king they reach a void and they enter hoping to meet with Mundus somewhere inside only to later realize the void was Mundus himself.
When they first reached the Void, Dante thought Mundus was somewhere inside the void or past it waiting for them:
"Dante regarded the void with a cynical grin. "Last time, you came out of a dog statue. What are you going to throw at me this time?"]" P. 140
But once they step inside they are separated, this is when Dante realizes something:
Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. '''''It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself.''''' Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack. P. 144.
Dante, a character who can easily detect all type of intangible or invisible beings and other abstract stuff from power, to incorporeal demons, to shadows, souls, auras even killing intent coming from another universe was completely taken by surprise by mundus new form of existence... or rather the lack of it. He didn't know Mundus was the void itself.
Another important thing brought up above is the name stuff.
Sparda is a demon with the special power of being able to alter names as he pleases. This is something only a few Demons can do, something his children are able to do as seen here with Vergil and Dante.
Dante was the first one to do this as he changed his name to Tony during his childhood to escape from the demons following the instructions of his mother and later in the first novel reclaimed his real name, this changed him as he stopped being Tony "the human" but Dante "the half-devil half-human"
For reference, Mundus is able to do this too as he changed Vergil to Nelo Angelo stating he was going to get rid of his humanity, kinda the inverse of what Dante did, making himself more human when he became Tony.
We are told in this panel the act of naming a Demon isn't a great deal for the twins, just intending to name them or uttering the name seems to be enough, allowing them to choose one does the trick too (refer to the vergil manga panels linked above).
So, going back to the second novel; "Mundus" is never mentioned in the alternate timeline, he is only ever referred as "The Demon King" which is a title, this of course changes when Dante comes in and simply says his name. After that demons are able to call his name.
I would say this qualifies for At least type 1 NEP
=== Aspects: ===
* Spiritual Nonexistence: He lack a soul. He is just an empty void and not even Dante could sense a thing there.
* Conceptual Nonexistence: For most of the novel the void is only regarded as "The king" and several other titles, it isn't until Dante gets to that universe and calls him by a Name. After that more characters are able to call him by Name too.
* Mental Nonexistence: This is due to the mechanics of the verse. A soul is made of the mind, name and information, lacking a soul means lacking those.
* Information Nonexistence: He doesn't exist, there is only a void. No name means no information, and this is obvious since there is nothing there.
* Other: The Void refers to himself as a timeless being
=== TL;DR: ===
1) Information in DMC is type 2 since its a fundamental aspect of the existence of demons and it even comes from their very name/concept.
2) The alternative timeline Mundus is literally stated to be a void, he lacks a soul and a name (in verse this means he lacks all aspects of existence a demon has, from the soul to the concept, body to mind, etc.) his Nonexistent Physiology should be at least "Type 1, Nature 1, 2, 3, 4 and probably 5"
Agree:
Disagree: 1 (DontTalkDT)
Neutral:
Some proposals already have some counters made by DontTalkDT, which I already countered too but on his request I will link ya'all to it.
Names
A Demon's name is something special, more important than other verses. We are told that [o them a name is "truth"... more than those forms they take, it is said that the name of a demon is closer to its true substance, like heirs to a family they model themselves after the meaning of the name but this is only from the research Arkham has gathered, in reality the name and its significance is much more complex and deeper than that.
In reality the power of a name is much more, from the moment demons come into existence the names are the most sacred thing to them, '''they not only represent power but also the very concept of their own existence, basic principles that predate the creation of even the creation of the demon world itself.'''
A Demon's soul'
As you probably saw in the scan above, the name which is the most sacred thing for a demon as it is their very concept is nothing but a part of their souls. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.]
But there is more to the souls.
Souls are "objects" that hold many mysteries that neither Humans or Demons understand but that every soul has. The soul as we know now thanks to Peak of Combat is a basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. But that's not all as it contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times.
This goes in line with what Arkham told us, if you recall, as the name (which demons mold themselves after) is nothing but just a part of the souls demons have.
A Demon's name is something special, more important than other verses. We are told that [o them a name is "truth"... more than those forms they take, it is said that the name of a demon is closer to its true substance, like heirs to a family they model themselves after the meaning of the name but this is only from the research Arkham has gathered, in reality the name and its significance is much more complex and deeper than that.
In reality the power of a name is much more, from the moment demons come into existence the names are the most sacred thing to them, '''they not only represent power but also the very concept of their own existence, basic principles that predate the creation of even the creation of the demon world itself.'''
A Demon's soul'
As you probably saw in the scan above, the name which is the most sacred thing for a demon as it is their very concept is nothing but a part of their souls. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.]
But there is more to the souls.
Souls are "objects" that hold many mysteries that neither Humans or Demons understand but that every soul has. The soul as we know now thanks to Peak of Combat is a basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. But that's not all as it contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times.
This goes in line with what Arkham told us, if you recall, as the name (which demons mold themselves after) is nothing but just a part of the souls demons have.
In short a soul in Devil May Cry contains every aspect of existence for Demons, from minds to information and even their concept.
With all that in mind let us proceed to the meat of the thread.
Information
The page has this to say about information manipulation: Type 2: '''Fundamental:''' These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature
This fits perfectly with the information that makes up a demon as a demon's existence is something more fundamental than just the world. As we are told, a name is the concept of their existence, the basic principles that predate the demon world, a world that predates ''our world''. Why is this important? Well it is because Demons mold themselves after said names/concepts. This is the information the soul contains as the name is only a small part of the soul. As some other character says, "With just one act. The act of naming these demons the world will change... It's very simple To change the value of everything would be all too easy"
In short, the information the soul has comes from the name/concept of a demon. To change a name/information is to change the existence of a demon as a whole, a fundamental part of reality if you will, something that has happened many times in the series with Nelo Angelo/Vergil, Tony/Dante and the seven SINS being prime examples of it.
The second part of this thread pertains to the Void "Mundus" character we see in the second novel.
Void "Mundus"
During the events of Devil May Cry Volume 2, Dante and his partner Beryl are transported to a parallel universe in which everything went wrong. Humans betrayed Sparda and Mundus broke free from his seal decades earlier. In this universe Mundus has accomplished his goal, fusing the worlds together and becoming the sole ruler of all in existence, attaining a new form beyond anything seen in the verse so far.
Mundus is described as both the heart and the nexus of the demon world but that's not all. When Dante and Beryl travel to the castle of the king they reach a void and they enter hoping to meet with Mundus somewhere inside only to later realize the void was Mundus himself.
When they first reached the Void, Dante thought Mundus was somewhere inside the void or past it waiting for them:
"Dante regarded the void with a cynical grin. "Last time, you came out of a dog statue. What are you going to throw at me this time?"]" P. 140
But once they step inside they are separated, this is when Dante realizes something:
Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. '''''It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself.''''' Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack. P. 144.
Dante, a character who can easily detect all type of intangible or invisible beings and other abstract stuff from power, to incorporeal demons, to shadows, souls, auras even killing intent coming from another universe was completely taken by surprise by mundus new form of existence... or rather the lack of it. He didn't know Mundus was the void itself.
Another important thing brought up above is the name stuff.
Sparda is a demon with the special power of being able to alter names as he pleases. This is something only a few Demons can do, something his children are able to do as seen here with Vergil and Dante.
Dante was the first one to do this as he changed his name to Tony during his childhood to escape from the demons following the instructions of his mother and later in the first novel reclaimed his real name, this changed him as he stopped being Tony "the human" but Dante "the half-devil half-human"
For reference, Mundus is able to do this too as he changed Vergil to Nelo Angelo stating he was going to get rid of his humanity, kinda the inverse of what Dante did, making himself more human when he became Tony.
We are told in this panel the act of naming a Demon isn't a great deal for the twins, just intending to name them or uttering the name seems to be enough, allowing them to choose one does the trick too (refer to the vergil manga panels linked above).
So, going back to the second novel; "Mundus" is never mentioned in the alternate timeline, he is only ever referred as "The Demon King" which is a title, this of course changes when Dante comes in and simply says his name. After that demons are able to call his name.
I would say this qualifies for At least type 1 NEP
=== Aspects: ===
* Spiritual Nonexistence: He lack a soul. He is just an empty void and not even Dante could sense a thing there.
* Conceptual Nonexistence: For most of the novel the void is only regarded as "The king" and several other titles, it isn't until Dante gets to that universe and calls him by a Name. After that more characters are able to call him by Name too.
* Mental Nonexistence: This is due to the mechanics of the verse. A soul is made of the mind, name and information, lacking a soul means lacking those.
* Information Nonexistence: He doesn't exist, there is only a void. No name means no information, and this is obvious since there is nothing there.
* Other: The Void refers to himself as a timeless being
=== TL;DR: ===
1) Information in DMC is type 2 since its a fundamental aspect of the existence of demons and it even comes from their very name/concept.
2) The alternative timeline Mundus is literally stated to be a void, he lacks a soul and a name (in verse this means he lacks all aspects of existence a demon has, from the soul to the concept, body to mind, etc.) his Nonexistent Physiology should be at least "Type 1, Nature 1, 2, 3, 4 and probably 5"
Agree:
Disagree: 1 (DontTalkDT)
Neutral:
))),anyway i am so awful at TD,NEP and acau so yeah can't anything here
