THE GREAT vs THE MIGHTY

[Buttersamuri]

This had to happen. A battle of the egos. The Great Papyrus vs The Mighty Zote. So here's the situation

These two were arguing who was superior. Zote pulls a blade out on papyrus. And thus a fight starts between gods

Speed is equal

Dream Zote used

Full arsenal

Both are willing to kill

Takes place in the Undergrounf castle

Who wins and why?

The Mighty: 1

The Great:

Inconclusive/Draw:

 

[Metalthegear12]

I have to say zote for a couple reasons

Mainly in attack and durabilty via the early game battle with The Knight and also since Zote couldnt hurt Knight during it he has survived multiple strikes from him

And then during his dream phase Zote is much stronger and able to damage The Knight with ease.

Not to mention all the different versions of Zote that the original one can summon. Some that can fight back, make shock waves and even fire projectiles.

But the best one he has is one that can drain the soul of the enemy which monstrrs in Undertale are extremly weak so he could over power papyrus in many ways.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Every character in Undertale can attack the soul IIRC, so I'm not sure if Zote's durability will come into play. He's also not going to know immediately that he has to stay still in order for the blue bones to not hurt him.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Since Zote is just like The Knight who has no need for a soul and only uses it as a weapon. Proven even having all the soul drained from his body and he was still fine. Showing he only uses soul as a weapon. It's very likely Zote isn't surseptable to soul damage

 

[Armorchompy]

Since Zote is just like The Knight who has no need for a soul and only uses it as a weapon. Proven even having all the soul drained from his body and he was still fine. Showing he only uses soul as a weapon. It's very likely Zote isn't surseptable to soul damage

The Knight is a being made of Void, Zote is a normal bug. Besides, even the Knight can be hurt by Pure Vessel's Soul attacks. But most importantly, you can hurt Zote with Soul attacks lol

 

[Buttersamuri]

Zote seems to be generally made of the same thing as the knight. That's why they look so similar

And hurting with soul damage is different than hurting a soul. You can hurt Zote with soul attacks yes. But that isn't hurting any soul or provingge has any

Being able to be hurt by soul based attack /= Having an actual soul

 

[Armorchompy]

Zote seems to be generally made of the same thing as the knight. That's why they look so similar
And hurting with soul damage is different than hurting a soul. You can hurt Zote with soul attacks yes. But that isn't hurting any soul or provingge has any

Being able to be hurt by soul based attack /= Having an actual soul

The species the Knight is is literally unable to speak. Zote, hoo boy, does he speak. Most importantly, HK lore pretty much explains that there's no way Zote is a void being, which is what The Knight is.

 

[Buttersamuri]

1. No proof of that. Just because one doesn't speak. Doesn't mean that can't speak. Less something actually says so. That's not a viable reason

2. Where? What lore exactly says this?

 

[Armorchompy]

1. No proof of that. Just because one doesn't speak. Doesn't mean that can't speak. Less something actually says so. That's not a viable reason
2. Where? What lore exactly says this?

"No cost too great.

No mind to think.

No will to break.

No voice to cry suffering.

Born of God and Void.

You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams.

You are the Vessel.

You are the Hollow Knight."

The guy who made the Knight, The Hollow Knight, and all the other Void beings in the game. (With one exception, and that one doesn't speak either.)

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, he repeatedly "says" he's from another kingdom, and talks about his parents, neither of which would be possible if he were void.

"This dreary place... it reminds me of home. How ghastly..."

"I came to this kingdom to fulfill a promise... and that is what I will do..."

"I came to this kingdom to fulfill a promise... and now I have succeeded!"

Note that this is through the Knight reading his mind, so no possibility he's lying.

 

[Buttersamuri]

That speaks about the hollow knight which The knight is not. The Knight and Hollow knight are separate people

 

[Armorchompy]

how about, for a change, you try proving that he is indeed void.

 

[Buttersamuri]

The fact is because of his similarities to the knight. There needs to be viable proof against it. And the only thing you showed was about The hollow Knight who is a separate character to The Knight.

And Anything outside of That Kingdom is Mindless as brought up in The offical Hollow Knight comics. So there's another issue

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

1. Zote's never been shown to damage the soul and Undertale characters have resistance to soul damage anyway.
2. Zote has ZERO provable relation to the Pale King, the vessels or even the White Lady, so he's not void.
3. His range is actually garbage and he's an idiot so he won't likely understand that he needs to stop moving to avoid blue attacks.

The Skeleton wins. No contest.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Facepalm. You don't need to injure soul to kill a monster. Physically killing them is just as possible. I don't know why people keep thinking that. You can kill an Undertale character physically. That's very possible. Their soul just shatters when they die but that doesn't mean frisk attacked their soul cause they didn't.

Also. The way his body acts and how he dies should he die in either the eternal ordeal or in game, plus his very similar look to the knight suggests otherwise. His body is the literal only other one who reacts similar to either the knight or the collector in the form of death or body type. So nope. Got to get more than that to prove otherwise.

His range is bad. But he can teleport and tends to teleport to his opponents location. Shown in his dream fight. Which is considered for this fight.

"The Skeleton wins. No contest"

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

1. STOP putting words in my mouth. I never said he needed to deal soul damage to kill Papyrus, just that Zote had no feats of soul damage.
2. How exactly does his body act that shows he's void? Got any screencaps? We never see Zote die in the real world and dying in a DREAM doen't count because it's a DREAM. Then Elder Bug is made of void too? He looks like a bigger Knight. You haven't described how his body acts, just that it's similar. Pics please. Burden of Proof is on you as you are the one making a positive statment.
3. He doesn't. Zote only ever teleports higher up to produce larger shockwaves.

 

[Buttersamuri]

1. which is irrelevant to the fight. Unless that was the only way to kill Papyrus or Zote didn't have the AP advantage and that was a way to bypass the durability, then that would be the time to bring it up. But here. It has 0 relevance.

2. The fact his body like shown here breaks apart like this when he dies. Which is only really done with another character like the collector who is also made of void


And also. Your Dream argument is Wrong. Dreams are fairly accurate to the real thing. Every creature dies the exact same way as they do in dream and real world. The very exact same way. Even Soul Masters Fake out Death before his real death is dead on similar. And it's similar with void as shown by none other than the collector who dies the exact same way in Dream and real world. So invalid argument

3. Wrong. He does teleport at his opponent. He falls onto them. Yes from above and causes shockwaves. But that's still him teleporting at them. He just falls at them from above.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

1. The first person to respond to this thread brought it up and I debunked it. You added a bunch more baggage onto it. Let's just drop it.
2. That picture shows nothing. That could just as easily just be a picture of the knight exploding.
3. Execpt Zote's dream fight is the only one that is inaccurate to the real life counterpart, and not even Zote's dream to begin with. It's a young girls fanfictio of another character.
4. I can't actually remember if he teleports to the Knight or not. Reguardless Zote's range is still garbage and he's never teleport spamed so he's still not reaching Pap before dying.

 

[Buttersamuri]

2. That's not the Knight. It's Zote in his death against the knight in the eternal ordeal. A Dream which isn't influenced by Zote. And only a god who seems to know all the bosses or have them inside his dream

3. Not in The eternal ordeal. Which is just a gods dream which has him dead on accurate to his self.

4. He doesn't need to teleport spam. He just needs to teleport once. Papayrus isn't the kind of guy to expect a teleport attack from above or even to dodge.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Is it normal or Gray Prince Zote?

His teleport distance is limited by his range. Garbage range means garbage teleport distance.

Also, going to bed now and won't be back for like 12 hours.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Normal Zote. Eternal ordeal is fighting infinite Zotes.

It isn't. Nothing suggest that. All we know is he can teleport. Nothing says how long he can do so. Only that he can.

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

And that's a no limits fallacy. You really aren't very good at this whole debating thing are you? Zote's limit is his displayed teleport distance. You need to prove he can teleport further then a few inches.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Except it's not a few inches. The Knight, who Dream Zote towers over, is ten inches tall.

 

[Buttersamuri]

"You really aren't very good at this whole debating thing are you?"

That coming from the person who was debating with irrelevant information? And the person who claimed this was a stomp when Zote still has an Obvious durability and power advantag which could easily fight back paps attacks with physically overpowering it? And yea sure. Keep talking.

And really Zote doesn't need to teleport himself despite the fact he could continue to get closer. He obviously isn't gonna just stand there and not fight or try and get close. Plus, Honestly the amount of minions he can summon out who would all fly towards Papyrus and have the strength to tank and overpower his attacks.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Except it's not a few inches. The Knight, who Dream Zote towers over, is ten inches tall.

That too. Zotes over 20 inches at least via more than twice the Knights size who is a little over 10 inches. And he can teleport across the room and off screen which the room is much much bigger than him. So. His range of teleporting is still gonna get him closer pretty quickly. Especially with all his other bugs and such backing him up. Only like 40 inches in a meter. And he can teleport several times his own size. So he could honestly teleport a few meters

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

I'll say this one last time. '''STOP. PUTTING. WORDS. IN. MY. MOUTH.'''

 

[Buttersamuri]

Didn't put any words in your mouth. All brought up there came from you.

The teleport argument ain't valid since Zote could get more than a few inches due to him towering over the knight. And his teleportion having a much larger gap compared to his size which enters into the meter range. As well as all his companions and power advantage. You were the one who also used the words Few inches: which is wrong. You did in fact say Papyrus stomped. And you did debate with irrelevant information. Wether Zote can or can't do soul damage had no relevance cause he doesn't need too.

So we didn't put any words on your mouth. Get out of here with that

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Calm down, guys.

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh lord, he's still going.

 

[Armorchompy]

Anyway, Gray Prince is a completely different thing from the real deal or the Eternal Ordeal, and the person who's eaming him doesn't even know what the void is, in all likelyhood. But even if we accept that both Zote and the Gray Prince are void, which I don't think they are, jut because they're able to use soul in their attacks, which no version of Zote ever does, by the way, that doesn't mean that they're immune to soul attacks, considering the soul they attack with is other bugs' soul. And since you argued that the reason the Knight can hurt void being with soul spells is that they have a physical blow to them, which IS true, the same applies for Undertale attacks.


Anyway, ignoring the quite silly argument of GPZ being immune to soul attacks, this fight is still up for debate. Gimme five min.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah actually I think the reasons given for Papyrus are enough, so Papyrus FRA

 

[Buttersamuri]

Again, It doesn't matter if he can use soul attack. That wasn't the point. The point is Void doesn't have Soul too attack. That's what give immunity.

The Knight lacks any actual soul do to being void. Much like a shade or sibling

 

[SauceSorcery]

Is Zote a Vessel or void being? More signs point to "no" than "yes"

1) Unlike a vessel, his face doesn't seem to be a mask. There is a distinct mouth, a detail that all vessels seem to lack as they're always wearing mouth-less masks, as well as 'detailed non-circular eyes'. This makes him more comparable to Elderbug and even so, the journal entry for broken vessel implies that it (the broken vessel) was designed to look similar to the bugs of Hallownest, so it's reasonable to assume that bugs can naturally look like Zote and Elderbug. Probably the "Everyman" of bugs.

2) Additionally, as an obvious joke character, him looking similar may be part of a joke.

3) Whenever Zote takes damage, he doesn't release "black particles" that void beings tend to release. This can be seen whenever the player character takes damage, along with many other void beings.

4) When Zote is killed or defeated, he never leaves behind a shade or any direct indication of it. He doesn't melt like the collector or change shape in any way like the pure vessel's tendril attacks.

5) While the collector kinda talks, none of the vessels seem to talk, implying that if he is made of void, he is not a vessel, even though the kingsmoulds don't seem to talk either. But every void being has been made with a purpose and if not a vessel, then what is Zote's purpose as a void being? Void beings seem very "programmable" and typically lack personal desires. The other thing is that if he were a vessel, he would've tried to fulfil his 'programming' and take the hollow knight's place, even if he dies trying.

6) It's shown that he doesn't come from Hallownest. "I came to this kingdom to fulfill a promise..." this is found twice with the dream nail, so he isn't lying.

7) (Edit) New point. If Zote were a vessel, a lot of his dreamnail text (and other bits of dia/mono-logue) wouldn't make any sense. If he lived in the abyss, got out and raised himself, he wouln't mention a thing about other kingdoms or proving anything to his own parents because he wouldn't know such things. If he isn't a vessel and was in fact raised by the pale king, he wouldn't claim to come from another kingdom and if he is making the incorrect assumption that hallownest is a separate kingdom from its original state or the white palace, he wouldn't comment on hallownest reminding him of home because both of those would've been more prosperous in comparison.

In short: I see no real evidence for Zote himself to be a void being and a lot of evidence against it.

I vote Papyrus. Speed is equal but Zote is clumsy, unskilled and not very smart while Papyrus is at least a skilled combatant. If he tried to avoid the danmaku which he has zero experience dealing with, he would likely trip over, then get soul-struck multiple times over. If he teleports, he's falling and he can't seem to teleport in mid-air, therefore he's moving and can be struck by blue attacks, even if he understood them. Blue attacks will also catch him during his methods of creating shockwaves by falling, jumping or tripping. This danmaku should be able to rapidly clear spawns as well.

(PS: This is my first comment)

 

[Armorchompy]

Thanks, you put it much better than I could.