The Great Soupy-phian Quest to Overhaul Epithet Erased (Part 1) [MORE INPUT NEEDED]

[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

Btw, I made this thread to discuss the calcs Agnaa thinks are invalid, so if anyone has any input there, I’d appreciate it.

 

[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

Bringing this back (bump)

 

[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

Considering the TTRPG book for the series is likely coming out soon, which will probably have a f**kton of new lore, I've decided it would be best to close this thread and create a revised version later to account for all the new content that's soon to come. Also, generally, I think I can do better with explaining in detail the mechanics of the verse and how everything's actually gonna work out.

If a staff member can please close this, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think it's coming out too soon. They mentioned that there's still loads of work left for it.

I can bring more info after I finish today's stream.

 

[IDK3465]

I don't think it's coming out too soon. They mentioned that there's still loads of work left for it.

I can bring more info after I finish today's stream.

You're right; I misinterpreted it.

Regardless, I think I might make a new thread later to revise what I said here and maybe put all of it into a blog next time. (also, this one's gotten pretty stagnant, so making a new thread to revitalize the CRT would be nice)

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think this is the sort of thread that could be revitalised like that. It hasn't gone on for 8+ pages or anything. There's only, like, two dozen posts of back-and-forth.

I think staff just gotta be contacted until we get enough on board.

 

[IDK3465]

Ok, so I was watching through the stream, and uh... CONCEPT MANIPULATION FOR INSCRIBED/WILD MAGIC USERS?!!?!!

 

[Agnaa]

They're not altering the concept itself, they're instantiating objects in line with a particular concept.

But ye, I'm keeping an eye on all that. Sand King's epithet now explicitly works on humans, so his eventual profile will become much more difficult to beat. There's more support for the game mechanic-type things being canon. And so on.

 

[IDK3465]

They're not altering the concept itself, they're instantiating objects in line with a particular concept.

Fair point, but this should still give epithets, wild magic, and anything created by them some kind of Abstract Existence as they are the physical manifestations of concepts.

Also, I still think things like the Arsene Amulet and Rick’s powers should still have concept manipulation as, while they can’t change the concepts themselves per-se, they do directly control what objects are “participating” in them.

 

[Agnaa]

Fair point, but this should still give epithets, wild magic, and anything created by them some kind of Abstract Existence as they are the physical manifestations of concepts.

No? AE requires a thing to lack a physical form, or to be able to regenerate indefinitely due to a conceptual basis. The powers themselves aren't out there in the conceptual aether, they just give characters the right to access certain concepts. Objects created by them are even further away, as they have physical existences.

Also, I still think things like the Arsene Amulet and Rick’s powers should still have concept manipulation as, while they can’t change the concepts themselves per-se, they do directly control what objects are “participating” in them.

No, they change which people can invoke objects from which concepts.

 

[IDK3465]

No? AE requires a thing to lack a physical form, or to be able to regenerate indefinitely due to a conceptual basis. The powers themselves aren't out there in the conceptual aether, they just give characters the right to access certain concepts. Objects created by them are even further away, as they have physical existences.

The non-physicality only really needs to apply to type 1 AE, there’s plenty of characters who physically exist and still are fundamentally connected to a concept or idea.
And as for the regeneration/immortality thing, Jello has made it pretty clear that as long as a certain concept/word exists in people’s minds, its respective epithet will always be available within the “pool” of concepts. Just because a concept doesn’t physically exist anymore, doesn’t mean it doesn’t still exist in the aether and can therefore be manifested physically by wild magic or eventually be reconnected with an inscribed host.
As such, I think it’s fair to give epithets type 2 AE because, as long as its respective concept exists, the epithet (and anything it governs) can always be manifested into reality.

 

[Agnaa]

C'mon man. That's not regeneration/immortality, that's just the concept being type 1 under our system.

 

[IDK3465]

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[IDK3465]

Bump (btw Agnaa, I will reply to you, just kinda busy as of late)

 

[Agnaa]

Jello's released some new WoG that I think works against the idea of it being a NPES.

It seems like the energy they invest into objects to embue them is their experience with that ability. It's not their stamina. Plus, single-use embues take less of this experience than permanent ones do; you can have an object permanently manifest your epithet at the cost of your skill at using it.

I don't think this lines up well, since a character normally invoking their epithet simply loses stamina, not skill. In fact, using their epithet makes them better at it.

So despite some nods to the contrary, I don't think an energy system is the right way to approach epithets.

 

[IDK3465]

It seems like the energy they invest into objects to embue them is their experience with that ability. It's not their stamina. Plus, single-use embues take less of this experience than permanent ones do; you can have an object permanently manifest your epithet at the cost of your skill at using it.

I think you may have misinterpreted some of what I had said previously. At no point do I say that epithets are linked to stamina, in fact, I proposed evidence of the contrary.

Inscribing an object requires a permanent loss in proficiency, implying that proficiency is somewhat tied to how much Epithet energy someone has. And because those with higher proficiency are shown to have more power and control over their epithet, that means the more energy someone has, the stronger their attacks are.

It's pretty clear that epithets are tied to proficiency rather than stamina. Stamina loss is simply a byproduct of using an epithet/having your energy taken away based on the physical effort it takes to perform. Hell, when describing the game mechanics of the stats, Jello describes proficiency as being the thing that actually upgrades the potency of the character's abilities. This also explains why it takes more energy to imbue an object permanently because it's essentially putting energy into an object rather than oneself to do its own 'upgrading' procedure. And, obviously, having the effect be permanent and making sure the energy stays in there will take a lot more potency than briefly giving that object an effect for a few seconds.

I don't think this lines up well, since a character normally invoking their epithet simply loses stamina, not skill. In fact, using their epithet makes them better at it.

The reason why simple applications of one's epithet don't actually lose proficiency is because the energy isn't going away. It's just getting briefly applied into an attack before it goes back into the host.

Also, I've kinda changed my mind about energy simply being dependent on one's skill; rather, It seems to be dependent on the perceived "value," for lack of a better term, of something. You see, magic (which, for all intents and purposes, is the same thing as epithet powers. It's just manually attaching oneself to a concept rather than having that concept attached to one's soul by default) goes by the idea of sacrificing something in order to manifest an ability into reality. Karmal, a candy commonly used by magicians to perform magic, is very potent due to its status of being incredibly delicious and fetching a high price. But, in reality, karmal is actually very bland, with anyone who has actually tasted it not getting any value out of it. So basically, the energy you get out of something is dependent on your own perceived value of that thing. This also applies to one's own life energy, with the value you get from it being dependent on the value you personally perceive within yourself, often increasing with how much skill or experience with your abilities you have.

 

[Agnaa]

I think you may have misinterpreted some of what I had said previously. At no point do I say that epithets are linked to stamina, in fact, I proposed evidence of the contrary.

It's pretty clear that epithets are tied to proficiency rather than stamina. Stamina loss is simply a byproduct of using an epithet/having your energy taken away based on the physical effort it takes to perform. Hell, when describing the game mechanics of the stats, Jello describes proficiency as being the thing that actually upgrades the potency of the character's abilities. This also explains why it takes more energy to imbue an object permanently because it's essentially putting energy into an object rather than oneself to do its own 'upgrading' procedure. And, obviously, having the effect be permanent and making sure the energy stays in there will take a lot more potency than briefly giving that object an effect for a few seconds.

I don't think this works out very well either. During battles, characters lose stamina by using their epithets, some epithets use more of that stamina than others, and we see more clearly through TTRPG stuff that more powerful abilities usually cost more stamina.

I see it as, proficiency determines how good you are at utilising your epithet, and you can sacrifice that skill to put your epithet into an object, while stamina is how much of your energy is being put into each individual activation, which can be reduced as your proficiency goes up.

Also, I've kinda changed my mind about energy simply being dependent on one's skill; rather, It seems to be dependent on the perceived "value," for lack of a better term, of something. You see, magic (which, for all intents and purposes, is the same thing as epithet powers. It's just manually attaching oneself to a concept rather than having that concept attached to one's soul by default) goes by the idea of sacrificing something in order to manifest an ability into reality. Karmal, a candy commonly used by magicians to perform magic, is very potent due to its status of being incredibly delicious and fetching a high price. But, in reality, karmal is actually very bland, with anyone who has actually tasted it not getting any value out of it. So basically, the energy you get out of something is dependent on your own perceived value of that thing. This also applies to one's own life energy, with the value you get from it being dependent on the value you personally perceive within yourself, often increasing with how much skill or experience with your abilities you have.

This does not seem true. From the way it's described, it's a completely different way of interfacing with those systems. Epithet-users can't just burn karmals to make their epithets more potent, and they don't seem to be able to get more impressive effects if they themselves view it as less worthwhile.

You're making a leap that really isn't established in the text imo.

 

[IDK3465]

Sorry for the wait, I was busy with other stuff.

I don't think this works out very well either. During battles, characters lose stamina by using their epithets, some epithets use more of that stamina than others, and we see more clearly through TTRPG stuff that more powerful abilities usually cost more stamina.

I see it as, proficiency determines how good you are at utilising your epithet, and you can sacrifice that skill to put your epithet into an object, while stamina is how much of your energy is being put into each individual activation, which can be reduced as your proficiency goes up.

The problem with this is that, as far as I can tell, we don't have any concrete evidence other than what you said to really say that stamina is the amount of energy someone has. I mean, yes, the two are definitely correlated, and there are no objections there. But other than stamina functionally representing HP and MP in the TTRPG, that's kinda it.

If your claim of proficiency essentially being the "efficiency" of someone's energy was true, then when proficiency increases, either the cost of the abilities would need to decrease, or the stamina would need to increase. The thing is, from what I gathered from the TTRPG streams, that is not the case. Sure, some abilities, when upgraded, could simply decrease the cost of use, but for the majority, an increase in proficiency simply increases the potency of an attack. And it isn't like it's explained to be something like "proficiency lessens the cost of an ability, allowing you to more freely increase the potency of it," no, all it says is "proficiency is a resource you can spend to upgrade abilities."

For all we know, stamina can simply be an indicator of how much energy someone uses up without literally being the measure of the energy itself, correlation vs causation basically. While that is potentially a valid interpretation, as far as I'm concerned, proficiency simply has more evidence to back it up.

This does not seem true. From the way it's described, it's a completely different way of interfacing with those systems. Epithet-users can't just burn karmals to make their epithets more potent, and they don't seem to be able to get more impressive effects if they themselves view it as less worthwhile.

You're making a leap that really isn't established in the text imo.

Normally, I would agree with you on this, if not for some evidence showing otherwise.

As shown in the recent TTRPG character design stream, Cinnamon Josh, the creator of the Arsene Amulet, is literally stated to be capable of sacrificing things (including non-physical stuff like voices) to use for their powers, with the greater the monetary value, the more potent stuff they can create. Despite this, there is no indication that Cinnamon knows magic, only using their own epithet of copycat for all their abilities.
Another example of an inscribed viewing something as more valuable to increase its potency would be in Prison of Plastic, where Molly is shown to dramatically increase her proficiency by giving her abilities and technuiques unique names. Given what we've already seen, it makes sense to assume this is the same placebo-like process magic users make use of, in this case, making your abilities sound cooler, making them more valuable.

As such, I believe it's pretty clear that, while not identical, the processes of magic and epithets are very similar in nature, with the same overall principles of sacrifice value being linked to energy.

 

[Agnaa]

The problem with this is that, as far as I can tell, we don't have any concrete evidence other than what you said to really say that stamina is the amount of energy someone has. I mean, yes, the two are definitely correlated, and there are no objections there. But other than stamina functionally representing HP and MP in the TTRPG, that's kinda it.

Episode 6, 6:00, Percy is low on stamina, and if she were to use her Epithet more she'd pass out. We concretely know from the show itself that stamina is used in activating one's Epithet.

If your claim of proficiency essentially being the "efficiency" of someone's energy was true, then when proficiency increases, either the cost of the abilities would need to decrease, or the stamina would need to increase. The thing is, from what I gathered from the TTRPG streams, that is not the case. Sure, some abilities, when upgraded, could simply decrease the cost of use, but for the majority, an increase in proficiency simply increases the potency of an attack. And it isn't like it's explained to be something like "proficiency lessens the cost of an ability, allowing you to more freely increase the potency of it," no, all it says is "proficiency is a resource you can spend to upgrade abilities."

I just remember seeing that some of these proficiency upgrades included reducing the cost. Some do also include reducing cooldown, making it able to be used more quickly (i.e. during other people's turns), and as you said increasing its potency.

For all we know, stamina can simply be an indicator of how much energy someone uses up without literally being the measure of the energy itself, correlation vs causation basically. While that is potentially a valid interpretation, as far as I'm concerned, proficiency simply has more evidence to back it up.

I don't really understand.

Normally, I would agree with you on this, if not for some evidence showing otherwise.

As shown in the recent TTRPG character design stream, Cinnamon Josh, the creator of the Arsene Amulet, is literally stated to be capable of sacrificing things (including non-physical stuff like voices) to use for their powers, with the greater the monetary value, the more potent stuff they can create. Despite this, there is no indication that Cinnamon knows magic, only using their own epithet of copycat for all their abilities.

Fair enough, I haven't seen that stream yet. Still, until it's something other characters replicate I'm not too sold on it, a lotta characters have unique stuff outta nowhere (Giovanni's 13th strikes). Given how magic was explained by something used by Mundies to have a way of matching Epithet users, and how the knowledge of that was suppressed by Island Country (while Epithets themselves are still out there), I don't think you can make that cohere with the same principles being applicable to all Epithets.

Another example of an inscribed viewing something as more valuable to increase its potency would be in Prison of Plastic, where Molly is shown to dramatically increase her proficiency by giving her abilities and technuiques unique names. Given what we've already seen, it makes sense to assume this is the same placebo-like process magic users make use of, in this case, making your abilities sound cooler, making them more valuable.

This really seems like a stretch. You're trying to connect "They sacrifice things they hold in high regard, losing them forever" with "They give their abilities names".

As such, I believe it's pretty clear that, while not identical, the processes of magic and epithets are very similar in nature, with the same overall principles of sacrifice value being linked to energy.

I disagree.