The God tier of The Elder Scrolls

[Shazam121]

Some of you may find it strange that I would create a discussion to debate the downgrade of TES when it was only recently that I was trying to get them upgraded... but as was the case with Alduin I've been having some doubts about the 2-A ratings of the et Ada (Aedra, Daedra, Magna Ge) and in turn those of Vivec and Talos.

No one would ever plays these games and come to the conclusion that it has multiversal beings, hell nothing in the games is even house tier, we can argue game mechanics all day and I would accept that argument but even still this is a noteworthy observation. If nothing else the pages on this site are lacking information... Nocturnal's page claims she threatened the other Princes with a multiverse+ attack, where the hell did she do this?????

2-A is a high rating, it should require some reasonable evidence. So I ask: where is the in game evidence for this rating? Where is the canon explanation for what CHIM is and why it deserves a 2- A likely higher rating? Should we use the current description of the Godhead seeing as it is just fan interpretation?

I have some sources for these 2-A ratings but I don't know if they are enough and I'm interested in what other people have to offer first before I lay out my own. Remember the lore is often unreliable as it has been written by mortals.

Look I'm a fan, I do think in my head that they are 2-A, but idk if we have enough canon evidence to actually say for certain.

Discuss.

 

[Mora8]

If we're going by the same standards of evidence you propose, most of the other 2A-1A characters on this site would need an immediate downgrade or removal. Dozens of 2-A to 1-A characters on here appear to be based on minor speculation or taking character statements out of context. Even some are based on one piece of evidence and wonky scaling.

I do not think it is reasonable to downgrade at this point based on the lore we have. If we, say, get a mage beating an Elder Scrolls god in single combat, then we could consider downgrading. The player characters are a whole other can of worms. They are designed to win against them because of prophecy and plot, and furthermore have never achieved a direct confrontation with a full powered god.

In fact you have quite a lot of player characters in other games and series beating character they shouldn't be able to at all. It's a common theme and is plot induced stupidity.

Even more, what would we change the profiles to? Unknown? Might as well call for a removal.

So for the moment, I say we shouldn't touch the ratings until the next game comes out.

 

[Shazam121]

I'd think it was a shame for them to lose their ratings too, speaking as a fan. Ideally it would be good if we can source their "feats" in this topic and perhaps clean up some of the profiles. Such as Nocturnal and the Godhead.

I think at the very least they are High 3-A, just as a result of WoG saying they are of infinite size and mass. But this isn't a combat feat and that is an important distinction I believe. Some supposedly have many thousands of realms under their controls which would be 2-B? How much do we know on this subject, how are these realms created?

Currently they all seem scaled from Akatosh who is rated at 2-A for being the embodiment of time throughout Mundus and possibly Oblivion? Do we have a source for him embodying time in such a manner?

In Skyrim Sheogorath claims he is a part of every mortal. Ignoring everything else what tier would this feat sit at? It implies that he is in some way present in every mortal whilst his "true form" is in Oblivion.

 

[Mora8]

The infinite size and mass source is actually not too reliable I find. What is reliable are the game manuals and lore creator statements, which I believe both proclaim god realms to be infinite on at least a four dimensional scope.

In terms of sources, what is valid or what is invalid is only down to opinion. It would be interesting if we could implement a many tier structure for the Elder Scrolls profiles here, stating different potential power levels they are at, since we really don't have a definitive answer. None the less, the Elder Scrolls page definitely needs an almost complete revision, stating different views on the lore and many of the characters listed have both inaccurate and missing abilities.

Though it would take a hell of a lot of work, because there are so many different views people have on it.

On how the realms were created, I would recommend these:

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/lord-fa-nuit-hen-and-tutor-riparius-answer-your-questions

https://www.imperial-library.info/c...en-and-tutor-riparius-answer-your-questions-2

Give them a good read through, they're canon material.

As for Akatosh, it does not embody time throughout all of Oblivion, rather only realms which the Daedra use the concept of time on. I would probably tier Akatosh at 2-B or 2-C. Sure there are an infinite number of realms in Oblivion but it doesn't mean Akatosh has influence over all of them.

But Akatosh (or Aka?) I think is stated somewhere to be the most powerful of the Et'Ada so I would imagine that he is at least 2-B scaling off Daedra who are 2-B.

 

[SITHISIT]

You have discord, Shazam, so we could discuss and look at different things to try and find what the people who made the different reasoning behind what's on the vsbattles profiles?

I also made a thread requesting a revamp on TES profiles.

If he doesn't have influence over all of them, he still has influence over infinite realms as if I had control over infinite planes except for one, I would still have the infinity around it, no? @Mora8

 

[Shazam121]

Mora8 (I think) compiled a great list of information on this subject over on reddit. I'll copy it here.

"One quote I can think of off the top of my head concerning Aka being time or enforcing/controlling it:

As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!

I'll update this post with any other sources I find in general concerning Et'Ada embodying/controlling their spheres.

Edits:

Sheogorath (Madness):

From that day forward Ravate served Sheogorath's every whim. Whenever daring travelers try to approach Sheogorath, Ravate warns them, "Sheogorath is already inside each of us. You have already lost."

• Myths of Sheogorath

I am a part of you, little mortal. I am a shadow in your subconscious, a blemish on your fragile little psyche. You know me. You just don't know it.

• Sheogorath himself

(During ESO, Sheogorath makes one of your colleagues go mad)

Aka (Time):

Let me be clear: inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affected by Time, but we are not subject to it. We are subjects of Lord Sheogorath, who subjects us to whatever subjects he is in the mood to subjudicate. Because Time is subjective.

• ESO Haskill Interview, notice how 'Time' is capitalized, like it usually is when concerning Aka

As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!

• Fa-Nuit-Hen

Aka is also present in almost every (or every?) creation myth as the being-which-is-time.

The Cosmos formed from the Aurbis (chaos, or totality) by Anu and Padomay. Akatosh (Auriel) formed and Time began.

• Before the Ages of Man

When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala, Arkay, Y'ffre, Magnus, Rupgta, etc., etc. Others remain as concepts, ideas, or emotions. One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane.

• The Monomyth

But Auri-El is indubitably the God of Time for both the Altmer and Bosmer, and in their creation myths we easily recognize the acts of our own Father Akatosh. As to your penultimate question, since both Akatosh and Auri-El are credited with commencing the flow of time, by definition neither could 'precede' the other.

• Artorius Ponticus Answers Your Questions

It's also very important to note that Primate Artorius, by worshipping Akatosh, can outright stop time in the ESO confrontation with him. If this is not evidence of Aka being time, it is evidence of how mythopoeia can warp reality.

Mehpala:

As known in the West, Mephala is the demon of murder, sex, and secrets. All of these themes contain subtle aspects and violent ones (assassination/genocide, courtship/orgy, tact/poetic truths); Mephala is understood paradoxically to contain and integrate these contradictory themes.

• Vivec and Mephala (Book)

Misc:

Daedra were born before stars, mortal. Do you consider that perhaps such names preceded, hence perhaps inspired, the concepts they connote?

• N'Gasta

I am the face of pai

• Molag Bal (ESO), open to many interpretations

OOG/implications:

What is the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor?

To transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion. It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility.

• Vehk's Teachings

(MK implies the 'immortal rulers', or Daedra/Aedra/whatever else, set certain known laws in place)"


I found a description of Meridia manipulating and altering time that might support my original belief. In this recounting time is replaced with the word dragon, a clear nod to Aka.

"...thus does Merid-Nunda [ride? slide?] across the rainbow road from end to end, at one end stretching the dragon, at the other end compressing him...."

 

[SITHISIT]

So what I take from this:

Akatosh created all time. Which should include all the timelines of Mundus which has infinite parallels.

Padomaic spirits (Daedra) are generally unlinked from time in certain aspects. But most are overshadowed by the entity itself.

 

[Shazam121]

As far as I'm aware we do not know how many parallel realities Mundus has. Also, Daedra are not all Padomaic spirits, none of the et Ada are purely Anuic or Padomaic; it's more like a scale where some are more or less.

The et Ada existed before the creation of time, but the concept of time made it easier for them to define their personalities. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by overshadowed. Aka doesn't do much of anything anymore, most of what is attributed to him is some other entity manipulating him in some manner. Remember every time someone fiddles with time in some manner they are probably fiddling with Aka.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Over at: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/772089?useskin=oasis I'm debating for high 1-B daedric princes. Could you have a look and say what you think? Please if you are willing to read my summary and explanations. I didn't make the thread but have commented.

 

[SITHISIT]

I just like to call them Padomaic because some of them act like a dick

sort of like yknow padomay beating his brothers consort