The Elder Scrolls Additions

[Self_Love]

The Princes should have type 8 immortality and possibly a higher regen since they're the embodiment of concept(s).

Here

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greymarch

"The other Princes, growing fearful of Jyggalag's power, cursed him to become an embodiment of what he hated most: chaos and madness. The Prince of Madness, Sheogorath, was born that day. Sheogorath turned Jyggalag's domain into the Shivering Isles, a realm reflecting his madness"

The realms they reside in reflect their nature/said concept. The Shivering Isles showcases the different variations of madness, one being colorful (Mania), and the other being dark (Dementia). Dagon's realm looks destroyed and filled with lava, etc.


Mania


Dementia


The Deadlands, reflecting the Prince's destructive nature.


http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Daedric_Princes#cite_note-bookdaedra-8

"Each Daedric Prince holds some degree of "patronage" over a physical, philosophical, or metaphysical concept or state of being."

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/N%27Gasta#Daedra_Lords

"Daedra were born before the stars, mortal. Do you consider that perhaps such names preceded, hence perhaps inspired, the concepts they connote?" ―N'Gasta


More in-depth


Thoughts?

 

[Shazam121]

They have type 9 immortality... which appears to be very similar to type 8 on the surface. Reading the description of type 8 immortality seems to imply that an individual is dependent on a concept for their immortality. I don't think the Princes are dependent on their concept for their immortality, rather their concepts are sort of dependent on them. So I think type 9 is the correct immortality for them.

Now I'm not sure about the Regenerationn stuff. Mid-Godly regen doesn't seem to mention anything about concepts, to qualify for it a character has to regenerate from having their mind, body, soul, and consciousness completely erased from existence. I don't think anyone in TES has shown such an ability?

 

[Self_Love]

Type 9 immortality means that one's true self is from another place. Type 8, in this sense, being reliant on the concept it embodies.

I added in the regen because i see pages on this site having Mid-Godly because of their status as conceptional entities. Think. You can't destroy the embodiment of time, unless you destroy/erase the concept of it.

 

[Self_Love]

Daedra have. You completely destroy their avatar, they return to Oblivion. You destroy their true self in Oblivion, they regenerate. You destroy their true self in the plane they reside in, they regenerate.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Chaotic_Creatia

 

[Shazam121]

Type 8, in this sense, being reliant on the concept it embodies

I don't think they are reliant on their concepts though. It's implied that the et'Ada existed before the concepts they came to embody. That is to say: they possibly (?) created their concepts but they don't need them to survive. Type 9 seems to be a superior form of immortality to me.

I added in the regen because i see pages on this site having Mid-Godly because of their status as conceptional entities. Think. You can't destroy the embodiment of time, unless you destroy/erase the concept of it.

Hmm, yeah, I'm really not sure about this one. Some have said to me that this has nothing to do with regen and is just a facet of type 9/ type 8 immortality. So gonna leave this for someone who is more familiar with how this site defines these terms.

 

[Shazam121]

Daedra have. You completely destroy their avatar, they return to Oblivion. You destroy their true self in Oblivion, they regenerate. You destroy their true self in the plane they reside in, they regenerate.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Chaotic_Creatia

But is there any mention of their soul (vestige) and consciousness being erased?

There are some sources that say Daedra are cast into the 'void' aren't there? Would a void be considered nothingness? In the past, this used to be High-Godly regen, but idk if it means anything nowadays.

A tricky subject.

 

[Self_Love]

I don't think they are reliant on their concepts though. It's implied that the et'Ada existed before the concepts they came to embody.

Link?

 

[Self_Love]

There are some sources that say Daedra are cast into the 'void' aren't there? Would a void be considered nothingness? In the past, this used to be High-Godly regen, but idk if it means anything nowadays.

A tricky subject.

Yeah they're cast into the void if defeated. A void is nothingness, the first link below even says that.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Void

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Chaotic_Creatia First sentence

 

[Shazam121]

Well, this is what the Monomyth has to say on the subject (admittedlly the Monomyth is a pretty weak source):

"Some are more bound to Anu's light, others to the unknowable void. Their constant flux and interplay increase their number, and their personalities take long to congeal. When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala, Arkay, Y'ffre, Magnus, Rupgta [sic, etc., etc. Others remain as concepts, ideas, or emotions. One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane."]

A better one would be Schick (lore writer for ESO) saying that time only began when Akatosh put himself into the world, which would imply that he existed before time was a thing:

Which does make sense to me as many of the gods embody concepts that only became relevant with the birth of mortals.

 

[Shazam121]

Yeah they're cast into the void if defeated. A void is nothingness, the first link below even says that.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Void

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Chaotic_Creatia First sentence

Yeah but the problem with those is that it has no direct source for it. It's just the wiki making a claim. That site often mixes up Oblivion and the void outside the Aurbis (Sithis).

 

[Self_Love]

Here's one from the more reliable site http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Spirit_of_the_Daedra

I'm still trying to make sense of this. One states that when Akatosh formed, time began while they other (Shick) states that they existed before the concepts they embody. Nevertheless, I see plenty of pages with both type 8 and 9, don't think this would disqualify them.

 

[Shazam121]

Here's one from the more reliable site http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Spirit_of_the_Daedra

I'm still trying to make sense of this. One states that when Akatosh formed, time began while they other (Shick) states that they existed before the concepts they embody. Nevertheless, I see plenty of pages with both type 8 and 9, don't think this would disqualify them.

Same issue with this site. The actual source never explains what the 'darkness' is, the site just decided themselves.

And keep in mind that even the Monomyth claims that spirits existed before the concept of time. But you are probably right that one can have both type 8 and 9, though they be redundant in some cases.

Gonna leave it be for now and see what others think.

 

[Self_Love]

Yeah i need staff input on this

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I don't know the Elder Scrolls mythology very well. You should preferably ask Sheoth to give input here, along with people listed in the Knowledgeable Members List.

 

[Self_Love]

Basically the E'ada (Aedra and Daedra) embody concepts, but supposedly (?) don't rely on them, since they existed beforehand.

Also the bit with the Daedra having the ability to regenerate as long as Chaotic Creatia exist. (Destroy their avatar, they return to Oblivion. Destroy their true self in Oblivion, they regenerate, Destroy their true self in the plane they reside/orginate from, they regenerate)

What sort of Immortality/regen would this warrant?

 

[Antvasima]

Based on the above, I am not sure whether or not the information is an accurate interpretation, so I would prefer to see more input first.

 

[Self_Love]

Type 8 is strictly reliant, correct?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes.

 

[Self_Love]

Well the Et'da embody concepts and can never truly die unless their concept is erased.

I read the Monomyth again and it basically told me what i already knew. Anu and Padomay are concepts and so is everyone else.

"Aspects of the Aurbis then asked for a schedule to follow or procedures whereby they might enjoy themselves a little longer outside of perfect knowledge. So that he might know himself this way, Anu created Auriel, the soul of his soul. Auriel bled through the Aurbis as a new force called time. With time, various aspects of the Aurbis began to understand their natures and limitations"

The Et'da were always concepts. They just never knew before the concept of time. They never created concepts themselves.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that type 9 might be reasonable then.

 

[Self_Love]

I prefer to wait for other input though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Self_Love]

Ahhh Abstract Existence takes care of this. I feel like an idiot for not spoting the obvious. Can i add a cool image for Sheo under the gallery?

 

[Antvasima]

What do you mean?

 

[Self_Love]

I want to add better images for Sheogorath's page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that should probably be fine.

 

[Self_Love]

Can you unlock the page

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Self_Love]

done

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should we close this thread?

 

[Self_Love]

yeah

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.