The Elder Scrolls 7-B downgrade

[Waria_Kambang]

“Those mages can easily use the same amount of power but in different forms (spells)”

Why should we assume their other spells are comparable to the magic that summoned storms. When the Dovahkiin has a shout powerful enough to disperse storms and it doesn’t work on anything else. If the storms are environmental destruction to the mages that means they can’t put that power anywhere else, that’s the entire point of environmental destruction. Since the shout that clears the storms is the most clear cut example of environmental destruction out there, and you never physically attack anything with storm call. Why would we assume storm call isn’t environmental destruction when its fellow weather controlling shout is environmental destruction.

Because weather manipulation isn't exactly that powerful. It took like 19 journeyman mages to create a storm and even then they can create it repeatedly, which is not exactly impressive in a setting where even a minor Daedra Lord like the Bad Man can destroy half a region.

"If the storms are environmental destruction to the mages that means they can’t put that power anywhere else, that’s the entire point of environmental destruction."

Except that they can because of the mechanic of magic in Elder Scrolls. Magic in Elder Scrolls is basically manipulating raw energy (magicka) into a variety of effects. The fact that they can create a thunderstorm through their raw energy means that they can channel that power into other spells to achieve different effects but same potency.

I have to make it clear that I agree with your point about storm call and clear skies. I also agree that the mages shouldn't be low 7-B physically. But I disagree that the thu'um users that are low 7-B need to be downgraded, since the average dragons during the Dragon War was described as being too powerful with their thu'um for most humans to fight against.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Quoting Loremaster Lawrence Schick:


"It's not just earth with some magic guys casting spells, right. The nature of reality is fundamentaly different in the world of Nirn, because it's based all the natural laws come from the sacrifices that the Aedra made when they made the world. So Akatosh, when he put himself into the world, he made time happen, right, and so forth and so on with all the different gods.

So you've got this really seriously interesting mythological background about the nature of reality and how it was created, and how it can be changed, because it's not set forever. It can be further changed by those who can channel magicka and force their will upon it. Right, that's what magic is. Changing reality locally.. Sometimes locally and usually temporarily but you're changing reality, and creatures and characters and beings of mythological levels can change reality in big ways! And that's what happens when you get a Dragonbreak, or a planemeld, or an Oblivion Crisis, or Alduin coming back from the depths of time. You've got reality changing in big ways."

Magic in Elder Scrolls is Channeling Magicka (Magical Energy) and enforcing Change into reality through your Will. The more magicka one chan channel the higher the effects of the change that mage can bring about with their will. So scaling offensive magic to weather magic I think is actually justifiable in Elder Scrolls since mages are explictly channeling a reserve of magickal energy to achive their desired change, whether it be manipulating the weather or blasting someone with electricity.

 

[Keeweed]

I just want to say I’m at the gym right now. So I’ll respond in at worst thirty minutes (but probably less). Sorry for any inconvenience.

Edit: The gym took longer than expected and my family just finished making dinner, so I’ll be back in a few more minutes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's fine real life comes first.

 

[Keeweed]

Sorry for taking a while to respond. When it comes to magic I think the way it is described makes it more likely to be environmental destruction. Your output with the magic isn’t a consistent power (as in strength) it is changing reality in different ways. What drains how much magic isn’t consistent in the Elder Scrolls and most spells have different strength and many of them have purely hax effects. Soul manipulation definitely can’t hit someone, but it requires magic. Since something with the power to disperse these storms can physically hit someone in the face, yet doesn’t hurt them, makes me believe the unified cause of magic shouldn’t relate to their effects. The spell is specifically meant to create storms, just how thing meant to disperse those storms can only do that and nothing else. The outcomes of the spells aren’t or can’t be consistent with the incomes of the spells. The thing is if clear skies could hit opponents then that would be good support for the storm creation to scale to characters, however it does the exact opposite. Since clear skies and call storms work under the same mechanics and they have a very similar system to magic (replace reality warping with information manipulation used to warp reality) I think clear skies showing itself to be the clearest form of environmental destruction should also apply to storm call.

When it comes to the dragons in ESO summoning storms are we sure it isn’t the thu’um just not said out loud. Last I checked Alduin and a few other characters use Unrelenting Force without actually saying the words, and Alduin doesn’t say the words to his storm summoning, but he’s clearly using shouts. I’m pretty sure the dragons in ESO would be using storm call just without saying the words.

Note (wrote this after watching multiple videos): the dragons do use shouts to summon the storms. I don’t think they say storm calls words, but I don’t see why they would be different enough from storm call for the environmental destruction issue not to apply.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

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You can't use the thu'um and try to equates it to magic. Thu'um are mostly hax because you are basically telling reality to change, while magic uses magicka (raw force) to force reality to change. This is especially true for destruction-based spells, which creates natural forces through magical means that uses the mages' magicka/raw force.

"Shock, like Flame and Frost, is an expression of magical power that takes the form of a natural force." - Mora'at's Theory of Lightning

When you use clear skies, it doesn't hurt your opponent because you are basically telling the weather and only weather to change, while with magic, the mages uses their magicka to create a natural thunderstorm. The fact that they have enough raw force to create a NATURAL thunderstorm means that they can use that same amount of raw force, just in a different ways, to hurt their opponent in a more physical ways, because again, that's just how magic works in Elder Scrolls.

And your example doesn't work because spells that attacks souls are specifically created to hurt souls, so of course it's not going to have any physical effect.

 

[KongKing23]

Every ESO Dragon can make storms.

They can stop Time as well (Gameplay mechanic limited to an area).

 

[Keeweed]

“And your example doesn't work because spells that attacks souls are specifically created to hurt souls, so of course it's not going to have any physical effect.”

But the spells meant to summon storms are also just meant to do only that: summon storms. They don’t physically hit people with these storms (which barely any character would actually do, but clear skies makes this messy).

When a daedra made a pocket realm as large as a small country (or in this case half a country) he was repeatedly stated to have the power to actually destroy half that country and physically scales to it. Meanwhile, according to you (“It took like 19 journeyman mages to create a storm”), it took 19 mages to even preform the low 7-B feat in the first place and other weather manipulation in the series can physically slap someone across the face and does no damage to them.

Since many spells focus around non physical things and still take just as much magic as physical attacks and feats this means magic usage isn’t determined by power or the physical effects of the outcome. I brought up soul tear because that means attacks with zero physical power still use magic, so just using magic doesn’t showcase the use of power (in terms of how it would scale to ap, the word power can mean a lot of things and I can’t think of a good alternative word right now).

I just want to say if my argument is slightly incoherent that is because it is 12:00 am here. I’m going to bed now, I just didn’t want to not say something after this thread became so active. I also have work tomorrow so I won’t be able to respond for a while, so I would have felt bad not leaving a message before I left. I’ll try to define my argument more tomorrow, I’ll have plenty of time to think it over during work tomorrow (I don’t have a very complex job right now, so I have time to think about stuff while working).

 

[Waria_Kambang]

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Yes, but the fact that they can create natural storms prove that these mages have the power/magicka to create it. The AP from this spell might be environmental destruction, but I never argued that it's not. What I'm arguing is that the magicka that is used to create these storms can be used for other spells that deals damages in a more physical way.

My argument is supposed to show that weather manipulation isn't really that good of a power, since a lot of mages can use it. You don't even have to be too exceptional to use those power. Meanwhile dragons was probably killing these mages during the Dragon War before they learnt the thu'um. I should also make it clear those journeymen can create multiplies of these storms and those storms were rather strong, since they were shooting out thunderbolts that would have killed all the mages had it not for it dispersing. So even then it would took less than 19 to create a low 7-B storm.

Please re-arrange this part.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

"Human level physically, Small City level with magic ( can summon massive storms )

Still think this is the best solution

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

BTW

I obviously agree that with the case of mortal mages, magic hardly scales to physicals. There are very few exceptions to these such as the case of legendary heroes who are portrayed as physically very powerful (Pelinal comes to mind), or player characters, or Sword-Singers. Dragons are imo the one exception to magic vs durability since the Thu'um just works very diffently than normal magic.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Pelinal don't count he a cyborg from the future/s

 

[Qawsedf234]

Pelinal is a large exception to the universe. Being an Ada along with a Shezzarine, he has some of the best general feats in the series.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

"along with a Shezzarine"
careful with what u say unless u want pelinal to kill u/s

 

[Qawsedf234]

Not the moths

 

[Keeweed]

Sorry for not responding earlier. Work was much harder than I thought it would be, because it was very cold and rainy out (I worked outside). I’ll wake up earlier tomorrow and respond to this thread. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Sorry for not responding earlier. Work was much harder than I thought it would be, because it was very cold and rainy out (I worked outside). I’ll wake up earlier tomorrow and respond to this thread. Sorry for the inconvenience.

It's fine, man. No problem.

 

[Keeweed]

Yes, but the fact that they can create natural storms prove that these mages have the power/magicka to create it. The AP from this spell might be environmental destruction, but I never argued that it's not. What I'm arguing is that the magicka that is used to create these storms can be used for other spells that deals damages in a more physical way.

Magicka is used to summon these storms but I don’t see why that would have an effect on the power of the outcome. In every elder scrolls game the skills or general increase of magic doesn’t increase its damage and you need to have a better understanding of the magic itself to do more damage with it. Also the effects of the spells are all different and are the warping of reality rather than releasing a certain amount of power or energy. Spells that do physically damage and spells that are completely unrelated to power and energy all require widely different amounts of magicka and do different amounts of damage and effects. I don’t see why the energy required to create a storm should scale to other magic when those spells are warping reality to have completely different effects. Spells being able to have effects completely unrelated to power or energy shows that magicka isn’t related to that and it’s just how much you can warp reality in general, which won’t apply to your attacks power, just its range or how long it can effect reality.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

Magicka is used to summon these storms but I don’t see why that would have an effect on the power of the outcome. In every elder scrolls game the skills or general increase of magic doesn’t increase its damage and you need to have a better understanding of the magic itself to do more damage with it.

There's that, but the amount of magicka you channel to your spells also affects the power of the spells. Take pocket reality creation for example, someone might be able to create a small village, but some powerful magician like Jagar Tharn and Mannimarco can easily create a whole reality with sun and planets inside of their pocket realities. Also, in the "War Weather" book, the person who wrote it said that small-scale weather manipulation is easy to create, but large-scale one is hard because of the amount of magicka it consumed. Heck, they literally said that the spell is useless in battle because of the amount of magicka it consumed caused it to disperse too quickly. There's also a case where an atronach can destroy a whole city and shatter a mountain when pumped with enough magicka. These are cases where spells affect the power of the spell. Beside, logically, can you really say that a ward that's cast by a novice mage is as strong as a ward that is cast by Mannimarco? Logically, even if they use the same spell, Mannimarco's ward should still be stronger.

Also the effects of the spells are all different and are the warping of reality rather than releasing a certain amount of power or energy.

Again, this is not true. While magic is reality warping, mages need to be able to give a certain amount of magicka (raw energy) to spells to cause these changes to happen.

Spells that do physically damage and spells that are completely unrelated to power and energy all require widely different amounts of magicka and do different amounts of damage and effects. I don’t see why the energy required to create a storm should scale to other magic when those spells are warping reality to have completely different effects.

Because spells that attacks soul, mind, or other unrelated things are completely unconvertable to physical damage or AP. You can't use a soul spell that can affect a continent-worth amount of people, convert it to AP, and say that mage can destroy a continent if they use destruction spells. Meanwhile, we can obviously convert storm creation to AP.

 

[Keeweed]

When it comes to the masters vs novices there spells should be different due to their mastery of magic, not necessarily the magicka. When it comes to the atronach wasn’t the whole point that they were turning it into a magic nuke. The reason it has that much power is because it’s purpose is to explode like that. I don’t see why the energy output of the storm should directly scale to other spells when the storms are warped into reality rather than made through condensation or kinetic energy (which is what we calc to have the storms be low 7-B or higher). It could be the storms massive size causing the magic cost to be high, since once again magic is warping a section of reality, not physically attacking someone with direct energy. I don’t think the connection (their is a better word to use here but I have no clue how to spell it) with magicka to its outputs are coherent enough to say that mages should be capable of putting the same energy in all their spells. Especially when the storm feat isn’t even done in a physically way and more warp

The pocket realm stuff is specifically stated in the Elder Scrolls to scale to the characters. If it wasn’t stated then it would be environmental destruction. Technically the characters don’t scale to the pocket realm creation, they scale to the statements saying they have the power to destroy things the same size as their pocket realms.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

When it comes to the masters vs novices there spells should be different due to their mastery of magic, not necessarily the magicka. When it comes to the atronach wasn’t the whole point that they were turning it into a magic nuke. The reason it has that much power is because it’s purpose is to explode like that.

Storm atronach also have an explosion spell in skyrim, yet they don't do the same amount of damage at all. Heck, a flame atronach explodes after they died, but you don't see them destroying mountains and cities. The amount of magicka matters.

I don’t see why the energy output of the storm should directly scale to other spells when the storms are warped into reality rather than made through condensation or kinetic energy (which is what we calc to have the storms be low 7-B or higher).

Because the mages channel their magicka to create that phenomenon. It's not like those mages just channel their magicka and the storms pops out of nowhere. They channel their magicka, which makes the storms slowly form. Where do you think the condensation/kinetic energy required to make this storms come from? The mages' magicka. You can literally watch the ESO trailer where an elven mage did this.

The pocket realm stuff is specifically stated in the Elder Scrolls to scale to the characters. If it wasn’t stated then it would be environmental destruction. Technically the characters don’t scale to the pocket realm creation, they scale to the statements saying they have the power to destroy things the same size as their pocket realms.

But the amount of magicka that the mages use affect the size of the pocket reality. That's my point.

 

[Keeweed]

I originally made this thread because I notice storm feats were becoming much stricter across this site and clear skies was very clear environmental destruction. But with more clarification the storms feats seem fine. Though I do think our current mage profiles need a bit of editing when it comes to somethings.

I personally find it a bit weird but being reminded of the atronach nuke does make the scaling much more concrete. I’m fine with the low 7-B feat now, but I now want to make a thread on current master mage profiles (not to downgrade them, to clean them up (I’ve kinda wanted to that for a while but all this discussion about elder scrolls magic has peaked my interest in their profiles again)).

 

[Waria_Kambang]

So what needs to be changed?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

So what needs to be changed?

I think is more cleaning the profiles and adding missing stuff

 

[Waria_Kambang]

So does this need to be closed? Since the topic have been answered.

 

[Keeweed]

So does this need to be closed? Since the topic have been answered.

This can probably be closed.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

.

Please close this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.