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The Dragonball Matter destruction symposium

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Cell (can regenerate from a nucleus in his head and nucleus are smaller than atoms) and buu (can regenerate from vapours) example are better than the Trunks one
 
Nullflowerblush said:
"insert any mention of Buu"
unknown.png
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This should debunk buu being atomized
 
ArmBill said:
A common response to this is that there were bits of freeza left. However, its irrelevant since you don't need to completely destroy them to split their atoms or "reduce" them to atoms. Even with gohan destroying cell, we see bit and peices coming off before getting completely destroyed the longer the blast goes. Not just instantly voiding them.
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The Daizenshuu claims Freeza was reduced to atoms. This statement by default means all of Freeza was reduced to atoms, not some unknown part of it. However, the manga doesn't say this and also contradicts this. So we don't use this statement.

ArmBill said:
Buu can regenerate from being turned into vapor, and was later fully destroyed.. which requires manipulating molecules.
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Not manipulating molecules. Just having enough AP break complex molecules into simpler ones. With enough AP difference, you can reduce your target to atoms because energy can break molecules. This is basic AP.

ArmBill said:
In Dragonball Super, Goku vs Beerus clash had the power to reduce the universe to nothing. Which means all matter would be destroyed.
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This is just universal destruction.

ArmBill said:
In conclusion, Characters beyond Ssj Future Trunks should have Matter destruction with the note that its on the level of spliting atoms. While ssg level characters and above in the anime, should get matter destruction to the point of voiding out atoms.
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Like I said earlier, this is a basic property of AP. With enough AP you can destroy anything to the level of molecules or atoms.
 
Bernkastelll said:
This should debunk buu being atomized
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That statement would still hold true if he was atomized. As the cells would be destroyed. So it isn't debunking that.
AKM sama said:
The Daizenshuu claims Freeza was reduced to atoms. This statement by default means all of Freeza was reduced to atoms, not some unknown part of it. However, the manga doesn't say this and also contradicts this. So we don't use this statement.
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Reduce means to "make smaller or less in amount, degree, or size". If I split someone's atoms apart, you would still be applying the definition of reduce, as they were made smaller.
AKM sama said:
Not manipulating molecules. Just having enough AP break complex molecules into simpler ones. With enough AP difference, you can reduce your target to atoms because energy can break molecules. This is basic AP.


This is just universal destruction.


Like I said earlier, this is a basic property of AP. With enough AP you can destroy anything to the level of molecules or atoms.
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Even on the matter manipulation page it says this as a part of matter manipulation. "destroy atoms to obliterate targets". Also, just the definition of the two words of 'Matter' and 'manipulation' would beget my edification, since destroying is a part of manipulation. But I specifically said destruction in the post any ways. It seems contentious for ap to overcome atoms and what not, so it should be noted.
 
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I think the intent behind matter manipulation is for characters who can control, transform, transmute, change, break down or otherwise repurpose these fundamental forces of nature and/or the bonds between them, by affecting the bonds themselves.

It costs 241 kilojoules of energy to break 1 mole of h2O, with 2331 moles of water in a 70kg person this would mean any 9-A with sufficient aoe would be consistently vaporizing humans (or a roughly 14,000,000x power ratio), which is something that happens very rarely in fiction. Almost all characters in the wiki would have matter manipulation by that logic.
 
RisingIons said:
I think the intent behind matter manipulation is for characters who can control, transform, transmute, change, break down or otherwise repurpose these fundamental forces of nature and/or the bonds between them, by affecting the bonds themselves.

It costs 241 kilojoules of energy to break 1 mole of h2O, with 2331 moles of water in a 70kg person this would mean any 9-A with sufficient aoe would be consistently vaporizing humans (or a roughly 14,000,000x power ratio), which is something that happens very rarely in fiction. Almost all characters in the wiki would have matter manipulation by that logic.
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Well if you split two atoms you would be affecting the bonds. Or even destroying it all together. Destroying the matter with ap falls under the sites explaintion of matter manipulation and the regular definitions.

I wouldn't care if matter manipulation became more analogous with power across the wiki. By all the definitions and how power affects matter it would apply in a way. However I'm just focusing on dragonball, with its feats/statements of matter destruction.
 
AKM sama said:
The Daizenshuu claims Freeza was reduced to atoms. This statement by default means all of Freeza was reduced to atoms, not some unknown part of it. However, the manga doesn't say this and also contradicts this. So we don't use this statement.


Not manipulating molecules. Just having enough AP break complex molecules into simpler ones. With enough AP difference, you can reduce your target to atoms because energy can break molecules. This is basic AP.


This is just universal destruction.


Like I said earlier, this is a basic property of AP. With enough AP you can destroy anything to the level of molecules or atoms.
Click to expand...
Wait I though you couldn't destroy molecules and atoms with AP only?
 
ArmBill said:
Well if you split two atoms you would be affecting the bonds. Or even destroying it all together. Destroying the matter with ap falls under the sites explaintion of matter manipulation and the regular definitions.

I wouldn't care if matter manipulation became more analogous with power across the wiki. By all the definitions and how power affects matter it would apply in a way. However I'm just focusing on dragonball, with its feats/statements of matter destruction.
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A true matter manipulator can literally break the bonds themselves with the energy required to do so without shooting a giant energy blasts that just melts an entire person's body away for example.

You are using a very oversimplified understanding of the concept.
 
RisingIons said:
A true matter manipulator can literally break the bonds themselves with the energy required to do so without shooting a giant energy blasts that just melts an entire person's body away for example.

You are using a very oversimplified understanding of the concept.
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When did firing a blast negate someone from manipulating matter? It doesn't, the example you stated is just more effective since you wouldn't need to fire a blast. However, they both have the same effect. Which is manipulating matter.
 
ArmBill said:
When did firing a blast negate someone from manipulating matter? It doesn't, the example you stated is just more effective since you wouldn't need to fire a blast. However, they both have the same effect. Which is manipulating matter.
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Because like I said its for people with matter hax. By applying such a basic definition of "manipulating matter" anything that eats is a matter manipulator on the molecular level for example.

AKM's argument answers this thread.
 
RisingIons said:
Because like I said its for people with matter hax. By applying such a basic definition of "manipulating matter" anything that eats is a matter manipulator on the molecular level for example.

AKM's argument answers this thread.
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However, a matter hax of some kind that distagrates someone by spliting their atoms and a blast which does the same thing. Would have the same effect, the only difference would be the matter hax might need a thought or something. Besides that, they would be very similar the blast would fall under "matter hax".
 
ArmBill said:
However, a matter hax of some kind that distagrates someone by spliting their atoms and a blast which does the same thing. Would have the same effect, the only difference would be the matter hax might need a thought or something. Besides that, they would be very similar the blast would fall under "matter hax".
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I get what you're saying but the wiki doesn't use rudimentary values as its standards for hax. A user that can dismantle atomic bonds which requires x amount of energy =/= a blasts that indiscriminately applies overwhelming energy to everything and destroys on the atomic level. I would even argue a blast doesn't "split" atoms more than it just melts them - there's no precision involved to accomplish that.
 
RisingIons said:
I get what you're saying but the wiki doesn't use rudimentary values as its standards for hax. A user that can dismantle atomic bonds which requires x amount of energy =/= a blasts that indiscriminately applies overwhelming energy to everything and destroys on the atomic level. I would even argue a blast doesn't "split" atoms more than it just melts them - there's no precision involved to accomplish that.
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Even if you melt atom's bonds apart that would still be splitting. Splitting means to "break or cause to break forcibly into parts". The atoms would be breaking apart. The precision isn't very imperative, since the same goal of breaking the atoms apart would be accomplished.
 
ArmBill said:
When did firing a blast negate someone from manipulating matter? It doesn't, the example you stated is just more effective since you wouldn't need to fire a blast. However, they both have the same effect. Which is manipulating matter.
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Ngl, but there's a lot of shade in your arguments for Matter manipulation. Goku having it is debatable, but he already has matter destruction on his profile with the Hakai, so that's not too important. However, your arguments are extremely strange for the rest of the characters, so just more reason for me to disagree
 
Tarang123 said:
Ngl, but there's a lot of shade in your arguments for Matter manipulation. Goku having it is debatable, but he already has matter destruction on his profile with the Hakai, so that's not too important. However, your arguments are extremely strange for the rest of the characters, so just more reason for me to disagree
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Only manga goku has it. The reason it applies to the other characters is because ki is a universal system everyone uses.
 
Buu's regeneration still worked after all his cells were killed he regenerated from vapours and Trunks implied he could have killed Zamasu by destroying all of his body entirely via suicide attack.

Even if this isn't matter manip it still means db characters can kill people with regen upto mid high which shouldn't be possible with only ap so a simple note stating dragon ball characters can kill characters with regeneration upto mid high with higher ap on dragon ball's page should be fine

Mid-High: The ability to regenerate from having all biology completely incinerated. This includes being reduced to ash, dust, smoke, vapor, or plasma.
 
Also, apparently piccolo from late dragonball believes he can blast people to atoms. Which is some nifty extra evidence.
 
Rez said:
Even if this isn't matter manip it still means db characters can kill people with regen upto mid high which shouldn't be possible with only ap so a simple note stating dragon ball characters can kill characters with regeneration upto mid high with higher ap on dragon ball's page should be fine
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It is possible with only AP (and range enough to affect all the enemy's body, but that's not a problem), as AKM said:
AKM sama said:
Not manipulating molecules. Just having enough AP break complex molecules into simpler ones. With enough AP difference, you can reduce your target to atoms because energy can break molecules. This is basic AP.

[...]


Like I said earlier, this is a basic property of AP. With enough AP you can destroy anything to the level of molecules or atoms.
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Also, Disagree for AKM reasons
 
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