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I want a fair and good fight, 50/50, not stomp matches. 60/40 would be stretching it.
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The Dragonball Matter destruction symposium
- Thread starter ArmBill
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Nullflowerblush
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Guess who didn't write the Daizenshuu.
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didn't toriyama approve it?
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azontr
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Hyperbole. My friend, that is literally the definition of hyperbole. It's like saying Mori Jin can destroy the universe, or that Goku can affect the Real World, or that Anos Voldigoad is High 1-A.
Regeneration and matter manipulation are two entirely different abilities.
Why do you think Goku and Beerus are Universal? This is an AP feat, not a hax feat. I guess every 3-A or Low 2-C should get matter manipulation for destroying the universe.
Nullflowerblush
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Toriyama praising the work of the unnamed studio that worked on the databook is not the same as Toriyama scrubbing through every page and analyzing absolutely everything they wrote and revising it in order to fit his image. In fact, Toriyama himself admits that he has forgot a lot about the series.
also, the bits of frieza that remained after the "atomization" were smoking as if they were set ablaze
also, the bits of frieza that remained after the "atomization" were smoking as if they were set ablaze
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and how long ago was this
azontr
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Most of DB is Toriyama forgetting things. It's practically a meme.
Nullflowerblush
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1.Hyperbole is very subjective though. You would need to prove there's contradiction as a official source is above any of our subjective opinions.
2. He regenerated from vaper and got erased by a blast later, I should've mentioned that.
3. It technically would fall under matter manipulation, so I would be fine with that.
He mentioned how the encyclopedia would be useful for when he was writing the series, that's giving his approval as he propgates that it's realible. You still would use official word unless contradicted. Just because Toriyama forgot ss2 existed dosen't mean it ceased to exist for example.
I already mentioned that you don't have erased the entirely of someone, to split their atoms. They said he was reduced to atoms, which can be true regardless if there's other parts.
azontr
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How is it not hyperbole? We treat instances such as this as hyperbole all the time. For example, the things with Mori Jin being able to destroy the universe being hyperbole, or Goku being able to affect the Real World. Why should it be any different here? The story is an official source that we get those statements from, so if we don't accept those, why should we accept this? What makes this case different?
If he was completely erased that would be Low-Godly, which Buu doesn't have. Also, again, regeneration and Matter Manipulation aren't the same abilities.
It wouldn't. AP is not hax.
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Destroying the universe with shockwaves is not Matter Manipulation.
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I dont know cases you stated super well. But there are people who think Goku affected the real world for the 4d movie. Saying something is hyperbole is too subjective to be a good argument. As it can be a slippery slope for saying other random things are hyperbole. You need to give an actual contradiction.
No, the point is they bypassed a mid high regen. Which means they're affecting molecules and what not.
These are wrong since voiding out matter into nothingness would mean you affecting atomic bonds and even lower than that. It's objectively matter manipulation.
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It objectively isn’t. It’s blowing shit up with raw power.
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"Matter Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the particles that make up matter and the bonds between them. "
Destroying those bonds would be affecting them aka manipulating them.
azontr
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I asked you why this case should be treated differently, you did not answer as to why.
With superior AP. Buu was defeated by Spirit Bomb which overpowered him, therefore destroying him, like every other Ki related move in the series.
No, it isn't. Using your Attack Potency to perform a 3-A feat isn't manipulating the matter.
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It’s Attack Potency. They’re blowing up celestial bodies with their strength.
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Cause you can't prove its hyperbole?
What did that better ap do? Tear molecules apart to get to that destructive state. By definition of manipulation it's just to control or influenced. Spliting the bonds is falls under that.
Yall are acting like higher ap can't manipulate matter. The fact its with power is irrelevant. On the matter manipulation page it talks about influencing the bond between atoms, splitting two atoms apart would be manipulation.
azontr
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This is literally the same case with those other cases, which are hyperbole. You have yet to answer my question and have instead dodged it. Tell me, why is this case different. Why is it not hyperbole?
Then idk what to tell you bro, it's just not how we treat matter manipulation. If you want to revise it, do make another CRT on it, I am happy to argue in it.
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Time to add Matter Manip is literally anyone with Attack Potency
azontr
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While he's wrong, I get what he is sayin'. It sorta makes sense in the realm of 3-A, it just doesn't fit our standards, so don't be an asshole.
Braking
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Ah didn’t mean to come off that way, my b
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The situations you described don't seem to be relavant, you just gave random occurrences where people said they're hyperbole. Besides you thinking it could be hyperbole and people thought those were there's no correlation.
Bruvvv, I'm not gonna keep making new threads. Just delinate why it's not.
Stronger ap means the more precise the matter altering can be. Just note the level of matter they can manipulate, since it seems continous to note atom destruction via ap. This shows that it would be for dragonball as it has more evidence.
You're good, I didn't interpret it maliciously.
azontr
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Mori Jin being Universal is Hyperbole because the statement was in one of the biggest fights of the series and was used to hype up Jin's power, even though Mori isn't anywhere near being near that level.
Goku affecting the Real World is hyperbole because... Come on, can you not figure this out yourself? It's clearly a hyped statement.
Anos being High 1-A can only be hyperbole because the series he comes from hasn't shown anything close to that, and Anos as a character is simply meant to be strong and hyped up.
This is Hyperbole because it's from a statement that can easily be interpreted (and has been) as a statement to hype up Trunks' power. Another reason would be that this only happened because Trunks was a fair deal stronger than Frieza, which is why he could do such significant damage. That's also usually how Ki is treated in the series: If your stronger than your opponent by enough, you can atomize them.
So even if this does get accepted, it will at best be a very limited matter manip, if it gets accepted.
I told you. Many people have told you why it isn't. If you want to change something you don't agree with, make a separate CRT.
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It seems like some of examples you gave have contractions in series. I assume. While the others are just being subjective. Like you just said it's obvious for the goku one. But that's not how you prove that, you need something more measurable not something so opinionated.
How do you measure a hyped up statment? It's just a baseless opinion. You would need contradictions. Or something more measurable
Just saying the site doesn't work like that is a weak argument. That's just appealing to authority. I already proved splitting atom apart with Ap goes under the definition of matter manipulation. You would need to substantiate why it's not, even though semantics begets my edification.
azontr
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How is that appealing to authority? Everybody agrees that it is how the ability works, my guy. Other people have agreed that the universe thing isn't matter manipulation. Nobody is appealing to authority, some people just happen to agree with how the site works while you do not.
You keep saying it's a baseless opinion even though the examples I've given have been accepted as hyperbole by many others. If you don't agree with how that is treated, please, make a CRT.
To answer your question, hyperbole is an exaggerated statement, correct? Not meant to be taken seriously. Look at the situation with Trunks and Frieza, Trunks was kicking Frieza's ass, the entire fight was Frieza and King Cold getting stomped. The fight was hyping Trunks up by showing how incredibly strong he is. Statements such as 'Oh, he can split atoms' are most likely another hype mechanism in this case.
And to answer another question, not everything can be concrete. Sometimes, things aren't measurable and can be interpreted loosely by many people. A lot of this site involves differing interpretations and deciding which one is best, not which one is objectively correct, cause in some cases nobody can be sure. If you aren't cool with things like that happening, then too bad.
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Just saying that how the site works as a point is just appealing to authority. That's not actually giving evidence, you're just siting what a collective thinks that created the site.
That's appeal to the masses, which I could've used when I was addressing the authority comment. I dont get anything out of people agreeing, I would need to know why. But regardless, the connection between those and this topic is flimsy.
"Most likely" So you aren't 100 positive. When it comes to corrabrating something you have to give something that is measurable. If you just give your opinion that it might be, then it not really convincing as there's no substance.
Not everything is 100% concrete and is equivocal. But what do you do when you're trying to convince someone of something? You substantiate with something measurable. At best, with your theory, I could be like maybe. Since I don't have anything to go on, instead of addressing my reciprocation with some substance. I'll get anwsers like that's how it is on the wiki, or alot of people think that. But yeah, I can't change that you want to be dogmatic and call me wrong, it is what it is.
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azontr
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I'm gonna take a break from this thread to do other shit with my life and keep my anger issues in check, but before I do that:
Your arguments are completely idiotic. You haven't debunked me, you keep saying things like 'Appealing to the masses' or 'Appealing to Authority' or something else yadayada without addressing the argument. I don't mean to sound rude, but, if this is how you argue, you need to reevaluate how you argue.
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I've been addressing your points wdym
. The reason I mention those is it's an easier way then saying just because the masses or an authority figure says its true dosen't mean it is. Why would you get angry at people discussing a cartoon, no offense but that's not pragmatic and you should work on that.
azontr
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I'm attempting to work on my anger issues lol. Also, you haven't been addressing anything, your just refusing to accept how the site works which isn't something any amount of me screaming in your face is gonna fix lol.I've been addressing your points wdym
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Are we sure he was weaker?
Every specific point you try and make I've addressed. I'll make a point about why the site is wrong and then you just say that's how it is.
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Hes definitely stronger at full power, but at that moment he seemed to be weaker, everyone needed to help him, vegeta hit Cell with a charged blast and Goku was in Gohan's head motivating him while Cell was just laughing and overpowering him. If Gohan was able to vaporize Cell without being far stronger or even stronger in general that means that the idea that they have to be far stronger than their opponent to vaporize them isn't true
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Is been brought up as a potential "limited matter manipulation", where they break down matter so long as they have a considerable power gap.
And he wasn't weaker, even half strenght and he clearly overpowered cell at the end or else cell would've just pushed him back the moment he noticed the kamehameha was closing in
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Kamehameha are far stronger than their base user tho
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Question, but isn't destroying matter through physical force an AP and not a Hax feat?
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When it comes to matter hax and destroying matter with ap. You would need to look at the effect. If that ap is splitting bonds of atoms and whatnot , It would fall under matter manipulation. Even the vswiki page supports how that's defined. "destroy atoms to obliterate targets"
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I'm skeptical on the atom splitting example.
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Well I don't think using the trunks thingie is really a good idea since visuals don't really support it that much [could be very very wrong]
But ddstroyimg the cells and molecules is a matter manipulation feat done via AP, it still counts [or else we should discard destroying the plot on a 1-A level via AP, or do we?]
And as for the ssg example, the statement says that everything will be reduced to a void made up from nothingness.
We can come up with three conclusions:
1-Everything will be destroyed and rescued to a void made up from nothing , aka destroying even atoms and molecules [you can wank it up to quantum particles and stuff like that]
2- we take that statement extra literally and give them void hax because they would turn everything into nothing, an empty void [kinda like the world of void]
3- the space time it self would be destroyed, thus making everyone turn into nothing
[And as always , I could be very very wrong]
But ddstroyimg the cells and molecules is a matter manipulation feat done via AP, it still counts [or else we should discard destroying the plot on a 1-A level via AP, or do we?]
And as for the ssg example, the statement says that everything will be reduced to a void made up from nothingness.
We can come up with three conclusions:
1-Everything will be destroyed and rescued to a void made up from nothing , aka destroying even atoms and molecules [you can wank it up to quantum particles and stuff like that]
2- we take that statement extra literally and give them void hax because they would turn everything into nothing, an empty void [kinda like the world of void]
3- the space time it self would be destroyed, thus making everyone turn into nothing
[And as always , I could be very very wrong]
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