The DBZ Speeds...

[FanofRPGs]

There's also the fact that there's literally nothing later on that can be calculated which would result in a similar speed stat...

The Death Beams are light speed according to 2 sources IIRC

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@The Living Trubunal1: Hmmmm... just the fact that it's an absurdly high speed when compared to the previous speed stats would make it an outlier.
There's also the fact that there's literally nothing later on that can be calculated which would result in a similar speed stat...

1- previous speed stats ere based on that 9000 km moon distance thing werent they........

2- later on we do NOT have either numbers or the time frame to calculate anything.........

as of now, the most important thing is the time frame COMBINED with the time for light to come back....

unless you wanna suggest that the time frame rate was magincally changed in the midst of the feat

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Nah its considered an outlier in obd because goku post king kai training was hypersonic crossing snake way road.

So Dragon Ball characters are faster than Saiyan saga goku from z thats doesn't make much sense.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@The Living Tribunal1: Uhhh... what are ya talking about. Let me tell ya the reason why it may be considered an outlier. It's absurdly superior to speed from previous sagas which I believe didn't have calculations to support them...

Later on there's no feat that can be calculated which shows that they travel at Relativistic speeds...

Show me another accepted calc for DBZ which results in Relativistic or higher...

@FanofRPGs: Do bring those sources I'd like to check...

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

well... the buu saga is absrurdly superior to cell saga......


also, there is not other calc because there is no other instance when the time and a reference speed have been set so clearly

how about you show me a calc that puts them below this speed (and the calc must not consider the bogus 9000 km to moon claim)

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

So Dragon Ball characters are faster than Saiyan saga goku from z thats doesn't make much sense.

Don't look at me here Akira wrote that...

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Feats I need calculated feats bro. Anything Relativistic or higher after the Piccolo beam thing is fine...

 

[Unclechairman]

and what makes it an outlier exactly?

The fact that it travelled far faster than any other attack shot in the entire saga and beyond.

and how exactly are those other attacks slower?.....

See Azathoth's comment about Piccolo's mountain-busting blast.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Feats I need calculated feats bro. Anything Relativistic or higher after the Piccolo beam thing is fine...

we dont have any time references for any combat situations after this point

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

So literally no feats after the Moon bust thing supports Relativistic speeds huh...

 

[Unclechairman]

The last time I heard of the Death Beams being calced, they apparently came out as Massively Hypersonic. There's the thing that FanofRPGs brought up about them being unable to be sensed by the Z Fighters who were able to sense the Ginyu Force pods, but that got quite a bit of flak.

 

[Dragon_Emperor_lV]

Piccolo busting the moon isn't an outlier....seriously come on...

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

So literally no feats after the Moon bust thing supports Relativistic speeds huh...

and there is nothing contradicting this either

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

King Kai was unable to keep track of the fight between Frieza and Goku but was able to sense the Saiyan pods which travel at FTL and it was decided that it was harder to track something that moving around so much as compare to something that already has a set destination so... yeah still no feats...

 

[FanofRPGs]

King Kai was unable to keep track of the fight between Frieza and Goku but was able to sense the Saiyan pods which travel at FTL and it was decided that it was harder to track something that moving around so much as compare to something that already has a set destination so... yeah still no feats...

The Death Beams are straight, not all zig-zaggy

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/149746/3899665-1979781074-37440.jpg

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

King Kai was unable to keep track of the fight between Frieza and Goku but was able to sense the Saiyan pods which travel at FTL and it was decided that it was harder to track something that moving around so much as compare to something that already has a set destination so... yeah still no feats...

stil no contradictions....

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

and there is nothing contradicting this either

Nothing contradicting it?... what about the fact that they would jump from MHS (still no calc for this either I believe) to Relativistic with only one feat and no others which would make it consistent ...

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

and there is nothing contradicting this either

Nothing contradicting it?... what about the fact that they would jump from MHS (still no calc for this either I believe) to Relativistic with only one feat and no others which would make it consistent ...

you mean the same way they jump from star level to multi ss level... also werent the old speeds based off the 9000km distance claim


either way, such jumps have hapened in dbz

keep in mind all dem blitzes as well

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Is friezas planet Vegeta busting canon because I'm pretty sure I recall his blast being calculated at sub relativistic or relativistic speeds sometime ago.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

and there is nothing contradicting this either

Nothing contradicting it?... what about the fact that they would jump from MHS (still no calc for this either I believe) to Relativistic with only one feat and no others which would make it consistent ...

The same could be said of going from Realativistic+ in Buu Saga to MFTL+ in Super

or going from Island to Moon when no training session was mentioned, but those are still accepted

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Is friezas planet Vegeta busting canon because I'm pretty sure I recall his blast being calculated at sub relativistic or relativistic speeds sometime ago.

true, and that blast was pushing away a lot of mass in its path, who knows how fast it would have been un-obstructed

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@The Living Tribunal1: The old 9000 thing was also debated upon as being an outlier in OBD and I believe here as well but with much higher number the likely hood of it being an outlier is much much higher...

Yeah for that Beerus appeared and he far outclassed them.. you know the rest...

Remember Bleach remember that blitzes don't mean anything...

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

where did the mhs+ speeds themselves come from?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Obviously from the Moon bust... do I need to explain why it's more likely to be an outlier with a much higher distance and much lesser timeframe...

 

[LordXcano]

Obviously from the Moon bust... do I need to explain why it's more likely to be an outlier with a much higher distance and much lesser timeframe...

I think he's more asking where did the speeds that suggesting relativistic would be an outlier come from.

I.E., what's stopping characters from around the start of DBZ from being relativistic

 

[Unclechairman]

Is friezas planet Vegeta busting canon because I'm pretty sure I recall his blast being calculated at sub relativistic or relativistic speeds sometime ago.

Yes. It is (pretty) explicitly referenced in Super.

Then again, there's the question of whether the speed of that blast can be scaled to anyone considering there might not have been a single blast of comparable speed in the saga that anyone was able to react to.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Is friezas planet Vegeta busting canon because I'm pretty sure I recall his blast being calculated at sub relativistic or relativistic speeds sometime ago.

Yes. It is (pretty) explicitly referenced in Super.
Then again, there's the question of whether the speed of that blast can be scaled to anyone considering there might not have been a single blast of comparable speed in the saga that anyone was able to react to.

I would think so, after all why wouldn't Piccolo use his fastest blasts against Raditz or Napp?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

I think he's more asking where did the speeds that suggesting relativistic would be an outlier come from.

I.E., what's stopping characters from around the start of DBZ from being relativistic

Hmmmmm... the fact that Dragon Ball characters are only MHS at best which is still unproven technically and they jump in speeds by hundreds to thousands of times.

Also the fact that there's literally no feat after that which supports Relativistic or higher speeds afterwards would be the reasons...

Listen if ya can look up anything which results in Relativistic or higher after the Moon Bust that would get rid of the thought that the moon bust is an outlier...

So think ya can find any...

 

[Unclechairman]

I'd like to point out that in order for something to be an outlier, it has to be contradicted by something that comes afterward. If a character gets a new powerup and jumps from Planet level to Universe level, despite the fact that that's a huge jump, it's still not an outlier as it's not outright contradicted and has a viable explanation. On the other hand, if that character goes straight back to struggling with Planet level characters afterward with no explanation (such as a powerdown or the powerup being temporary), than the Universal feat runs the risk of being written off as an outlier.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

And what if a massive jump happened and literally nothing similar was shown ever again...

Would you still actually accept that feat...

 

[LordXcano]

I think he's more asking where did the speeds that suggesting relativistic would be an outlier come from.
I.E., what's stopping characters from around the start of DBZ from being relativistic

Hmmmmm... the fact that Dragon Ball characters are only MHS at best which is still unproven technically and they jump in speeds by hundreds to thousands of times.

Also the fact that there's literally no feat after that which supports Relativistic or higher speeds afterwards would be the reasons...

Listen if ya can look up anything which results in Relativistic or higher after the Moon Bust that would get rid of the thought that the moon bust is an outlier...

So think ya can find any...

I'm saying a relativistic attack, since there's no contradictory feats, would be the baseline and previous speeds would be downscaled from that.

As you said yourself, there's nothing proving MHS, so all we ca work off of is this moon attack speed.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

It's contradictory because of the massive jump.

If there's no way to prove MHS speeds then it'd be labeled as unknown nothing more...

 

[LordXcano]

It's contradictory because of the massive jump.
If there's no way to prove MHS speeds then it'd be labeled as unknown nothing more...

Massive jump from what? We don't know their speeds, there just aren't the feats there to tell us this. Even if the Moon calc came out as MFTL+ it wouldn't be a massive jump except when compared to the previously assumed MHS speed.

You keep saying there's no way to prove MHS speeds, but isn't that just helping the relativistic calc? If there's a bunch of unknowns, then something comes up to clear up those unknowns, you use the feat that came up.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

I'll just say this Goku after training with King Kai traveled the snake way and his speed resulted in Hypersonic I should've said this earlier...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Personally, I believe that a midway would be to make them in that speed tier which was what, sub rel or rel? That'll apply to Saiyan Saga and Kaio-Ken, but the others on a different saga (i.e. Buu, 17, Fused Piccolo, etc.) are scaled by their own speed feats, but no matter what, are above sub rel or rel. (i.e. Ginyu Force, Nail, Zarbon, etc.) Just my personal opinion to keep the backlash off, so take it with a grain of salt and all that jazz, but I would greatly appreciate it if this was considered.

 

[LordXcano]

I'll just say this Goku after training with King Kai traveled the snake way and his speed resulted in Hypersonic I should've said this earlier...

Travel speed != combat speed.

 

[Unclechairman]

And what if a massive jump happened and literally nothing similar was shown ever again...
Would you still actually accept that feat...

Does said jump come with a viable explanation (such as a powerup)?

If so, yes I would. Darkspine Sonic is Universal for a reason.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

@LordXcano: So you consider dodging something as combat speed huh.

I won't agree here as it's pointless. Just so you know it's gonna be like this DBZ chracters "Hypersonic Travel Speed with Relativistic combat speed" are ya ok with that...

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Does said jump come with a viable explanation (such as a powerup)?

If so, yes I would. Darkspine Sonic is Universal for a reason.

Viable explanation that I can't say as I don't really know if it would be truly legit. But what if that feat was contradicted later on...

 

[Unclechairman]

What is it but a feat of reactions?

Are you implying that it's ridiculous? The alternative is Mach 50 Krillin, you know.