Aksh_sky
He/Him- 157
- 47
So to start off with this crt, I'll get things straight that I'm here to well, as the title suggests, to debunk some bad Killer Peter calcs and downgrading the verse once again. And speaking of 'bad' KP calcs then ngl, just glancing at the speed page of the verse makes me realise how genuinely bad these calcs are. But I'll try to disprove all of them going in a descending order:
1) Thaddeus blitzed a Rank B Killer
So I'll go one by one debunking and proving why the assumptions that are used in the calcs are extremely wrong.
1. The assumption they used:
"For the timeframe, we will not use the Rank B assassin’s timeframe since it violates the Blitz rule. Instead, we will use a third-party reference, Yuna Lee. Yuna, who was observing, stated that she couldn’t keep up with the attacks. Although she is only a Rank D assassin, she is still far above a normal athlete. Therefore, we will use the maximum human reaction timeframe of an athlete, which is 0.1 seconds."
First of all, i suppose they meant perception timframe and not reaction timeframe because Yuna didn't really had anything to 'react' as she was literally just an observer, anyways, I'll assume that 0.1 second is perception speed that's used here.
Second of all, idk from where he got the idea that 'not being keeping up or tracking attacks' = 'not being able to perceive attacks'.
The whole base of the calc relies on an assumption that Yuna couldn't perceive any of those 8 attacks that he calced, meaning his attack was done within her perception timeframe, making her unable to see or process anything.
But here's a BIG issue, and to understand that we'll need to understand the definition of 'perception speed', so as per vsbw, perception time is:
"Perception speed refers to a character's ability to quickly process and understand sensory information. Unlike reaction speed, it's about the initial intake of data, not any subsequent actions, so perception speed doesn't encompass decision-making or actions beyond the initial sensory processing; characters with a perception speed higher than their reaction speed would be able to notice something without necessarily being able to dodge it."
So through this we can simply understand that 'perception timframe' is the timeframe of a charecter to mentally digest visual information or process it, basically. And perception blitzing or moving a certain distance within the timframe would simply mean that a set charecter moved in a certain distance before another charecter could even perceive or visualise the information.
Now, since we have the definition clear, we can go back to the statement used to justfiy perception blitz, which was "My eyes MAY not have been able to FOLLOW his movements" now I've already wrote the keywords in caps but all she said was that SHE WAS UNABLE TO FOLLOW HIS MOVEMENTS, infact not even 'was' just 'maybe was', and regardless not being able to follow movements doesn't imply that she had a completely inability to PERCEIVE his movements or all his movements and his 8 attacks. If I'm not able to follow the movement of a ball then that DOES NOT imply that I'm unable to perceive that ball. As visual perception means the brain’s ability to interpret what's visible meanwhile tracking is eyes’ ability to follow a moving object. They both are not AT ALL the same thing.
Moreover, if the text would had even REMOTELY implied that she was unable to perceive(which clearly isn't the case here) then that'll still not be considered, as Yuna WAS infact able to mentally digest those visual information and we were even shown those visualization and her observations disproving her complete inability to perceive, via her estimation of the number of attacks Thaddeus performed. And due to all those reasons, the usage of the perception timeframe of Yuna for Thaddeus's attacks won't be considered valid.
And even if you tried to argue that those other two dudes kinda implied they couldn't see anything then lemme tell you that those two guys are faster than Yuna and are gag charecters who are often shown unserious and they act dumb because they ARE dumb. They just said that what has hit him not because they were unable to see anything as they clearly saw one attack, but they just said it out of shock and the phrase 'what has hit him?' doens't even entails that they couldn't perceive it as that's just a way to show shock it exclamation. Because even if someone couldn't see, they can easily contextually figure out that what has hit them, which would be ofcourse a kick because they saw him do that earlier too, for example a solider would know that his ally is hit by a bullet just from the context regardless of he can perceive the bullet or not(which he ofcourse can't). And the fact that they clearly saw one attack of Thaddeus already disproves the usage of the 0.1 second timeframe for all his attacks, and yes that most likely means that they didn't payed attention properly like how Yuna did. So even if we say that they couldn't perceive and Yuna could then that'll still won't be usable, because them being faster yet unable to perceive would make incosnsistency which would at the end would just get redirected to the second possibility which says that they just didn't observed properly as compared to Yuna, which is consistent because they are gag charecters.
So yeah, the timeframe cannot be used.
2. Thaddeus's leg movements that are used in this calc for his kicks are extremely inflated as we don't even see him kick properly in that feat, infact we don't see anything at all summing everything into just assumption without proper justifications. For example, how this calc assumes that Thaddeus retracted his whole leg each time he kicks which again only relies on an assumption as he could've only just retracted his knees only to kick once again instead of his whole leg each time.
And also they just used 180° arc for each of Thaddeus's leg movements, also for...you guessed it...no reasons. Not only it's almost not humanly possible for someone to lifting their leg straight in front of them until it’s perfectly in line with their torso, even in case it's possible then it's just if they either lean their todso backwards or their position isn’t purely a strict front raise, but regardless they use their hand to assist unlike in this case where Thaddeus obviously didn't do that since he had his arms crossed and neither he moved his todso. This gets more closer to impossible and almost completely impossible if a full 180° arc is done by the leg backwards. So it's pretty obvious that not only the assumption for the 180° movement lacked substantial weight or justification but it's also pretty illogical for somone to move that way each time to kick a total of 8 times while looking in front and having their arm crossed while the guy being kicked is in the back. It’s not possible for him to move his leg 180 degrees for every single kick. He could move his leg 180 degrees to kick the opponent in the head. But to kick the shoulder, he would need to move his leg less than 180 degrees. To kick the stomach, he would need even less movement. And to kick the legs, he would need far less movement.
Overall, this calc is pretty bad, moving on to the next one.
2) Thaddeus counters a bunch of fodders
Again I'll go pointwise debunking this calc.
1. Again there's literally no justification provided on why 0.08 reaction seconds timeframe was used or why those random fodders are subsonic level and why were they unable to perceive all those attacks because reaction time deffinately cannot be used for all of them as Thaddeus obviously came at them one by one so reaction time won't really work for all his attacks on other individuals too... LITERALLY NOTHING was provided. Infact 0.1 second reaction time was compared with Thaddeus's own reaction time himself by Raphael.
But anyways, for some reason the high end was used even though DMUA never specified on which end should've been used so idk why this was added into the profile.
2. Again, same thing. The assumptions used for movements of kicks and the assumption for leg retraction. Even the person calcing it themself stated that they aren't sure on what the angles were YET they were just assuming angles for the kicks and all with no proper justifications and same goes with the justifications for leg retractions.
It's wayy safer to just use normal pixel lines, similar what Arthur Nando once used.
Anyways this should be enough to prove why this calc is bad too, now let's move on to one that's even worse.
3) Thaddeus counters Kageo
Same as others, I'll debunk it pointwise as it's one of the worst calcs here.
1. First of all, Thaddeus CLEARLY MOVED TO THE SIDE first to avoid the punch. So idk how this got accepted because the movement in the timeframe was already made when he moved aside and he punched AFTER moving aside. They assumed that while Kageo’s punch moved 0.124823m, Thaddeus moved his arm 1.2m during that same time and also retracted it back. But there's no evidence for that as in the next panel, we can clearly see that the punch traveled a much greater distance.
Thus the calc is invalid.
2. And also, the close punch evading rule DOES apply here as Thaddeus was faster than Kageo but not THAT faster than him as Kageo could clearly dodge Thaddeus's attacks and could even block multiple attacks from him before it landed, infact he could even land attacks on Thaddeus and could even copy Thaddeus's attacks and even was able to improve them.
So yeah, the close punch evading rule DOES APPLY.
Overall, this calc is also pretty bad so we'll move on the next one
4) Thaddeus blitzes Andreas
This one of the better calcs as it also has pretty good reasoning and i think it works but the only problem I see with it is that old angsizing formula is used because well... the calc is old. And average human reaction time should be used as I've already stated that Thaddeus's reaction time was compared to 0.1 seconds.
But i also believe that Thaddeus's full height should be used for angsizing and the new formula should be used.
Anyways, that'll be it for now
KP should be downgraded to subsonic and all these calcs should either be removed or fixed.
This gets even more consistent as I'll now write up the reasons why the KP verse shouldn't get pass subsonic:
P1: For Sikadi to land an attack on Thaddeus, she needed to push herself to the limit and move at 134 km/h, which means her usual speed is below 134 km/h.
P2: However, even at this speed, Thaddeus at 256 km/h was fast enough to completely outpace Sikadi, leaving her unable to react and take a hit from him.
P3: Judas said that Sikadi was the only one who matched up to the suppressed Thaddeus when moving below 134 km/h.
P4: Judas can be scaled up to Simon and the other apostles, so his claim should carry some weight when talking about the apostle scaling in general, both in their prime.
P5: Even if we assume that the 256 km/h feat does not reflect Thaddeus’ combat speed but rather his movement/travel speed, the fact is that Sikadi was clearly unable to react to Thaddeus’ movement at this speed before being hit. Whether it is called “combat speed” or “travel speed,” it does not affect anything as it still scales with perception and reaction speeds.
P6: Sikadi even stated that these kind of speeds aren't humanly possible as she's actually suprised and thinks that much speed isn't possible, neither she had ever made such made such comments before regarding anyone else and neither she ever showed this level of surprise. Which should prove that it isn't a general statement.
P7: Even Thaddeus's speed readings were spoken when he was clearly attacking which further adds consistency to my arguement.
C: Thus, the apostles would realistically scale below 134 km/h in reaction speed and around 256 km/h at best.
Therefore, the Killer Peter verse should be at best subsonic.
That'll be it for this thread.
1) Thaddeus blitzed a Rank B Killer
So I'll go one by one debunking and proving why the assumptions that are used in the calcs are extremely wrong.
1. The assumption they used:
"For the timeframe, we will not use the Rank B assassin’s timeframe since it violates the Blitz rule. Instead, we will use a third-party reference, Yuna Lee. Yuna, who was observing, stated that she couldn’t keep up with the attacks. Although she is only a Rank D assassin, she is still far above a normal athlete. Therefore, we will use the maximum human reaction timeframe of an athlete, which is 0.1 seconds."
First of all, i suppose they meant perception timframe and not reaction timeframe because Yuna didn't really had anything to 'react' as she was literally just an observer, anyways, I'll assume that 0.1 second is perception speed that's used here.
Second of all, idk from where he got the idea that 'not being keeping up or tracking attacks' = 'not being able to perceive attacks'.
The whole base of the calc relies on an assumption that Yuna couldn't perceive any of those 8 attacks that he calced, meaning his attack was done within her perception timeframe, making her unable to see or process anything.
But here's a BIG issue, and to understand that we'll need to understand the definition of 'perception speed', so as per vsbw, perception time is:
"Perception speed refers to a character's ability to quickly process and understand sensory information. Unlike reaction speed, it's about the initial intake of data, not any subsequent actions, so perception speed doesn't encompass decision-making or actions beyond the initial sensory processing; characters with a perception speed higher than their reaction speed would be able to notice something without necessarily being able to dodge it."
So through this we can simply understand that 'perception timframe' is the timeframe of a charecter to mentally digest visual information or process it, basically. And perception blitzing or moving a certain distance within the timframe would simply mean that a set charecter moved in a certain distance before another charecter could even perceive or visualise the information.
Now, since we have the definition clear, we can go back to the statement used to justfiy perception blitz, which was "My eyes MAY not have been able to FOLLOW his movements" now I've already wrote the keywords in caps but all she said was that SHE WAS UNABLE TO FOLLOW HIS MOVEMENTS, infact not even 'was' just 'maybe was', and regardless not being able to follow movements doesn't imply that she had a completely inability to PERCEIVE his movements or all his movements and his 8 attacks. If I'm not able to follow the movement of a ball then that DOES NOT imply that I'm unable to perceive that ball. As visual perception means the brain’s ability to interpret what's visible meanwhile tracking is eyes’ ability to follow a moving object. They both are not AT ALL the same thing.
Moreover, if the text would had even REMOTELY implied that she was unable to perceive(which clearly isn't the case here) then that'll still not be considered, as Yuna WAS infact able to mentally digest those visual information and we were even shown those visualization and her observations disproving her complete inability to perceive, via her estimation of the number of attacks Thaddeus performed. And due to all those reasons, the usage of the perception timeframe of Yuna for Thaddeus's attacks won't be considered valid.
And even if you tried to argue that those other two dudes kinda implied they couldn't see anything then lemme tell you that those two guys are faster than Yuna and are gag charecters who are often shown unserious and they act dumb because they ARE dumb. They just said that what has hit him not because they were unable to see anything as they clearly saw one attack, but they just said it out of shock and the phrase 'what has hit him?' doens't even entails that they couldn't perceive it as that's just a way to show shock it exclamation. Because even if someone couldn't see, they can easily contextually figure out that what has hit them, which would be ofcourse a kick because they saw him do that earlier too, for example a solider would know that his ally is hit by a bullet just from the context regardless of he can perceive the bullet or not(which he ofcourse can't). And the fact that they clearly saw one attack of Thaddeus already disproves the usage of the 0.1 second timeframe for all his attacks, and yes that most likely means that they didn't payed attention properly like how Yuna did. So even if we say that they couldn't perceive and Yuna could then that'll still won't be usable, because them being faster yet unable to perceive would make incosnsistency which would at the end would just get redirected to the second possibility which says that they just didn't observed properly as compared to Yuna, which is consistent because they are gag charecters.
So yeah, the timeframe cannot be used.
2. Thaddeus's leg movements that are used in this calc for his kicks are extremely inflated as we don't even see him kick properly in that feat, infact we don't see anything at all summing everything into just assumption without proper justifications. For example, how this calc assumes that Thaddeus retracted his whole leg each time he kicks which again only relies on an assumption as he could've only just retracted his knees only to kick once again instead of his whole leg each time.
And also they just used 180° arc for each of Thaddeus's leg movements, also for...you guessed it...no reasons. Not only it's almost not humanly possible for someone to lifting their leg straight in front of them until it’s perfectly in line with their torso, even in case it's possible then it's just if they either lean their todso backwards or their position isn’t purely a strict front raise, but regardless they use their hand to assist unlike in this case where Thaddeus obviously didn't do that since he had his arms crossed and neither he moved his todso. This gets more closer to impossible and almost completely impossible if a full 180° arc is done by the leg backwards. So it's pretty obvious that not only the assumption for the 180° movement lacked substantial weight or justification but it's also pretty illogical for somone to move that way each time to kick a total of 8 times while looking in front and having their arm crossed while the guy being kicked is in the back. It’s not possible for him to move his leg 180 degrees for every single kick. He could move his leg 180 degrees to kick the opponent in the head. But to kick the shoulder, he would need to move his leg less than 180 degrees. To kick the stomach, he would need even less movement. And to kick the legs, he would need far less movement.
Overall, this calc is pretty bad, moving on to the next one.
2) Thaddeus counters a bunch of fodders
Again I'll go pointwise debunking this calc.
1. Again there's literally no justification provided on why 0.08 reaction seconds timeframe was used or why those random fodders are subsonic level and why were they unable to perceive all those attacks because reaction time deffinately cannot be used for all of them as Thaddeus obviously came at them one by one so reaction time won't really work for all his attacks on other individuals too... LITERALLY NOTHING was provided. Infact 0.1 second reaction time was compared with Thaddeus's own reaction time himself by Raphael.
But anyways, for some reason the high end was used even though DMUA never specified on which end should've been used so idk why this was added into the profile.
2. Again, same thing. The assumptions used for movements of kicks and the assumption for leg retraction. Even the person calcing it themself stated that they aren't sure on what the angles were YET they were just assuming angles for the kicks and all with no proper justifications and same goes with the justifications for leg retractions.
It's wayy safer to just use normal pixel lines, similar what Arthur Nando once used.
Anyways this should be enough to prove why this calc is bad too, now let's move on to one that's even worse.
3) Thaddeus counters Kageo
Same as others, I'll debunk it pointwise as it's one of the worst calcs here.
1. First of all, Thaddeus CLEARLY MOVED TO THE SIDE first to avoid the punch. So idk how this got accepted because the movement in the timeframe was already made when he moved aside and he punched AFTER moving aside. They assumed that while Kageo’s punch moved 0.124823m, Thaddeus moved his arm 1.2m during that same time and also retracted it back. But there's no evidence for that as in the next panel, we can clearly see that the punch traveled a much greater distance.
Thus the calc is invalid.
2. And also, the close punch evading rule DOES apply here as Thaddeus was faster than Kageo but not THAT faster than him as Kageo could clearly dodge Thaddeus's attacks and could even block multiple attacks from him before it landed, infact he could even land attacks on Thaddeus and could even copy Thaddeus's attacks and even was able to improve them.
So yeah, the close punch evading rule DOES APPLY.
Overall, this calc is also pretty bad so we'll move on the next one
4) Thaddeus blitzes Andreas
This one of the better calcs as it also has pretty good reasoning and i think it works but the only problem I see with it is that old angsizing formula is used because well... the calc is old. And average human reaction time should be used as I've already stated that Thaddeus's reaction time was compared to 0.1 seconds.
But i also believe that Thaddeus's full height should be used for angsizing and the new formula should be used.
Anyways, that'll be it for now
KP should be downgraded to subsonic and all these calcs should either be removed or fixed.
This gets even more consistent as I'll now write up the reasons why the KP verse shouldn't get pass subsonic:
P1: For Sikadi to land an attack on Thaddeus, she needed to push herself to the limit and move at 134 km/h, which means her usual speed is below 134 km/h.
P2: However, even at this speed, Thaddeus at 256 km/h was fast enough to completely outpace Sikadi, leaving her unable to react and take a hit from him.
P3: Judas said that Sikadi was the only one who matched up to the suppressed Thaddeus when moving below 134 km/h.
P4: Judas can be scaled up to Simon and the other apostles, so his claim should carry some weight when talking about the apostle scaling in general, both in their prime.
P5: Even if we assume that the 256 km/h feat does not reflect Thaddeus’ combat speed but rather his movement/travel speed, the fact is that Sikadi was clearly unable to react to Thaddeus’ movement at this speed before being hit. Whether it is called “combat speed” or “travel speed,” it does not affect anything as it still scales with perception and reaction speeds.
P6: Sikadi even stated that these kind of speeds aren't humanly possible as she's actually suprised and thinks that much speed isn't possible, neither she had ever made such made such comments before regarding anyone else and neither she ever showed this level of surprise. Which should prove that it isn't a general statement.
P7: Even Thaddeus's speed readings were spoken when he was clearly attacking which further adds consistency to my arguement.
C: Thus, the apostles would realistically scale below 134 km/h in reaction speed and around 256 km/h at best.
Therefore, the Killer Peter verse should be at best subsonic.
That'll be it for this thread.
