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The DBZ Speeds...

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SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

SchutzenDunkelZiel1217

VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
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Well since I can be properly active again I figured I'd get this out of the way first.

I'm sure most of you are aware of my short calc which puts DBZ Characters at FTL since the Frieza saga. It's been quite some time since this was posted and there wasn't much disagreement regarding it besides the uncertainty regarding the Timeframe of 17.84 seconds.

The calc has a broken link where the definite explanation for getting the timeframe would be. I've already asked DontTalk if there was another way to get a proper timeframe or at least confirm the timeframe of 17.84 seconds here.

Before making a decision regarding this I would like to point out two things.

1) The accepted calc for Piccolo's Beam which is this uses the same timeframe of 17.84 seconds.

2) The same accepted calc uses 9,318.7 kilometers as the distance between the DBZ's Earth and Moon they got this via angsizing. However as I've already said in my calc Akira Toriyama technically confirmed that the distance between DBZ's Earth and Moon is the same as the distance between our earth and moo which should make the distance of 9,318.7 kilometers for DBZ's Earth and Moon as being inaccurate or at least that's my opinion.

Now it's time to make a decision is my calc acceptable or not.

Also I do have an alternative timeframe which we can use, it's was heavily suggested by The Living Tribunal1 so if we use that instead credit goes to him as well I guess. We can use the timeframe of 4 or so seconds which is the time required for Piccolo's beam to reach the moon in DBZ Kai.

I'm strongly opposed to using Cinematic time but there aren't any other choices so I'm gonna suggest it...

Discuss and let's conclude this thing...
 
Well, Cinematic time has turned into a major issue as of late with a Naruto calculation, and given that it seems so controversial, and DontTalk and yourself also disapprove of it, I personally think that it seems uncertain to use. However, I think that the first option should probably be fine.
 
im against cinematic timing, but i am fine with the upgrades using the 17 second as the timeframe, although i'm not sure what to think about the distance to the moon.. I would prefer to go with our earth and moons distance.
 
I will ask the rest of the staff to weigh in with their opinions regarding this.
 
Well at least I'm not the only person who opposes using Cinematic time... and thanks for the quick replies.

@Antvasima: I would like to know what your opinion is regarding the distance between DBZ's Earth and Moon as in which do you think should be accepted the value of 9,318.7 kilometers or the value of 384,400 kilometers which is the distance between our earth and moon....
 
If Toriyama says that it is the same distance, then the same as for our Moon.
 
So let me get this straight.

Using the initial distance between DBZ earth and DBZ's moon, the calc resulted in MHS+.

Using the distance between our earth and our moon, the calc is sub-rel, right?

I just want to clear this up before anything else.
 
@Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Yes. Although do remember that Raditz dodged Piccolo's beam from like ten feet away which would make him Sub-Rel+ as well. And applying the "Goku got 10X faster and stronger statement" alongside the Kaioken multipliers DBZ speeds can become FTL since Frieza saga.

It kinda unbelievable even to me so please make a proper and calm decision as always... .
 
SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
@Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot: Yes. Although do remember that Raditz dodged Piccolo's beam from like ten feet away which would make him Sub-Rel+ as well. And applying the "Goku got 10X faster and stronger statement" alongside the Kaioken multipliers DBZ speeds can become FTL since Frieza saga.
It kinda unbelievable even to me so please make a proper and calm decision as always... .
Click to expand...
Yikes well at least the speed boost will be less ridicuolous as DBS jumps straight to MFTL from Rel+ Buu saga
 
@Schutzen

Well, I guess the same question I had as last time, was do we have confirmation that SSJ boosts speed the same as it boosts power? Because I remember there being a thing about Kaioken multiplying both strength and speed, but I thought Super Saiyan just boosted speed. I just wanna try and get these upgrades as accurate as possible.
 
I didn't use the SSJ multipliers for anything especially speed because quite frankly I dislike using them since they have nothing that prove that the multipliers multiply all stats by 50, 2 or 4 times...

The only thing slightly similar I used in my calc would be my assumption that 100% Frieza would be 2X faster than 50% Frieza...

As such I'm at a loss of what to do regarding the speeds after Frieza saga but I don't support using the SSJ multipliers for them. And to answer your question no there is no confirmation that SSJ multipliers boosts speed the same as it boosts power...
 
Hm, then I'm going to continue with my previous suggestion of everyone beyond a certain point should likely just be judged based on that. How many times FTL did Frieza end up being, again?
 
why does cinematic time always comes up? cinematic time isn't usable, even if there is no way to find a time frame otherwise, it misrepresanting and inaccurate.
 
SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
By original calc if ya mean my calc then here if ya mean the Naruto Forums original calc then here...
Click to expand...
Thank's, Tom. By the way, the whole tenfold thing from the back of DBZ volume 8. Are those little summaries written by Toriyama or just a member of the SJ staff?
 
@Illuminati478: Well without it both calcs are technically uncertain.

But which distance do ya think is more reasonable for the distance between DBZ's Earth and Moon the value of 9,318.7 kilometers or the value of 384,400 kilometers...
 
I'd go with the calculated distance rather then the informed, its toriyama's fault he drew the moon this way and that is its distance whether he likes it or not....
 
Illuminati478 said:
why does cinematic time always comes up? cinematic time isn't usable, even if there is no way to find a time frame otherwise, it misrepresanting and inaccurate.
Click to expand...
This. Cinematic time is wrong by default. Its always inaccurate and never corresponds to real time. Not only that there is no given standard in cinematic time. For manga calc we can assume time on our own and set our own standard. Each and every scene in all animated media have their own standard

Is there no other way for the calc?
 
SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
I didn't use the SSJ multipliers for anything especially speed because quite frankly I dislike using them since they have nothing that prove that the multipliers multiply all stats by 50, 2 or 4 times...
The only thing slightly similar I used in my calc would be my assumption that 100% Frieza would be 2X faster than 50% Frieza...

As such I'm at a loss of what to do regarding the speeds after Frieza saga but I don't support using the SSJ multipliers for them. And to answer your question no there is no confirmation that SSJ multipliers boosts speed the same as it boosts power...
Click to expand...
Considering Vegeta's statement that a higher PL/Ki = more speed, and that the Kaio-Ken increases speed, strength, and senses just by increasing your Ki pool, wouldn't the better question be "Is there any evidence against a SSJ multiplier also boosting speed"?

I know there's that on SSJ2 form that makes you stronger but slower but that adds in extra muscle mass. For some reason more muscle always = less speed in DBZ.
 
LordXcano said:
SchutzenDunkelZiel1217 said:
I didn't use the SSJ multipliers for anything especially speed because quite frankly I dislike using them since they have nothing that prove that the multipliers multiply all stats by 50, 2 or 4 times...The only thing slightly similar I used in my calc would be my assumption that 100% Frieza would be 2X faster than 50% Frieza...
As such I'm at a loss of what to do regarding the speeds after Frieza saga but I don't support using the SSJ multipliers for them. And to answer your question no there is no confirmation that SSJ multipliers boosts speed the same as it boosts power...
Click to expand...
Considering Vegeta's statement that a higher PL/Ki = more speed, and that the Kaio-Ken increases speed, strength, and senses just by increasing your Ki pool, wouldn't the better question be "Is there any evidence against a SSJ multiplier also boosting speed"?
I know there's that on SSJ2 form that makes you stronger but slower but that adds in extra muscle mass. For some reason more muscle always = less speed in DBZ.
Click to expand...
Well not SSJ2 but ultra grade 2 and 3 does make you slower
 
LordXcano said:
Considering Vegeta's statement that a higher PL/Ki = more speed, and that the Kaio-Ken increases speed, strength, and senses just by increasing your Ki pool, wouldn't the better question be "Is there any evidence against a SSJ multiplier also boosting speed"?

I know there's that on SSJ2 form that makes you stronger but slower but that adds in extra muscle mass. For some reason more muscle always = less speed in DBZ.
Click to expand...
No evidence that it doesn't boost speed, but also no evidence that it multiplies speed equal to its power multiplier. Obviously, Kaioken is a different case, but we don't want to assume that any character who is 50x stronger is also 50x faster.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
LordXcano said:
Considering Vegeta's statement that a higher PL/Ki = more speed, and that the Kaio-Ken increases speed, strength, and senses just by increasing your Ki pool, wouldn't the better question be "Is there any evidence against a SSJ multiplier also boosting speed"?

I know there's that on SSJ2 form that makes you stronger but slower but that adds in extra muscle mass. For some reason more muscle always = less speed in DBZ.
Click to expand...
No evidence that it doesn't boost speed, but also no evidence that it multiplies speed equal to its power multiplier. Obviously, Kaioken is a different case, but we don't want to assume that any character who is 50x stronger is also 50x faster.
Click to expand...
Well all Kaioken does is increase the amount of Ki you have by the stated multiplier, which boosts the sats respectively. Working from that we could conclude that the SSJ multiplier would do the same thing, as Ki would boost all stats.

[Non-Canon by now, I know but] This is why Goku was able to be killed with a simple laser rifle in RoF. His Ki was lowered, and so his speed and durability were lowered as well, preventing him from dodging or blocking the blast.
 
LordXcano said:
Well all Kaioken does is increase the amount of Ki you have by the stated multiplier, which boosts the sats respectively. Working from that we could conclude that the SSJ multiplier would do the same thing, as Ki would boost all stats.

[Non-Canon by now, I know but] This is why Goku was able to be killed with a simple laser rifle in RoF. His Ki was lowered, and so his speed and durability were lowered as well, preventing him from dodging or blocking the blast.
Click to expand...
We use Kaioken's speed multiplier because it's directly stated to multiply ALL physical attributes. SSJ is not.

Goku died in RoF because his ki was lowered yes, but dodging had nothing to do with it. His ki lowered his defense, so he couldn't tank the laser. There's nothing to suggest he couldn't have just dodged a similar attack had he seen it coming (because I sincerely doubt Goku is slower than light, at that point).
 
Sigh... this again. Look LordXcano until Akira Toriyama says that the SSJ multipliers increase all the stats of the character by the multiplier it ain't gonna be accepted...

I don't care if I sound like a prick right now as I've had to deal with the whole SSJ multiplier discussion at least half a dozen times by now and I'm in no mood to discuss it again.

So drop the topic.

If ya still want to discuss the topic start a new thread and get all the admins and mods besides me to agree. This thread is meant to discuss with calc is gonna be accepted and not to discuss about the SSJ multipliers so don't derail it...
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
We use Kaioken's speed multiplier because it's directly stated to multiply ALL physical attributes. SSJ is not.

Goku died in RoF because his ki was lowered yes, but dodging had nothing to do with it. His ki lowered his defense, so he couldn't tank the laser. There's nothing to suggest he couldn't have just dodged a similar attack had he seen it coming (because I sincerely doubt Goku is slower than light, at that point).
Click to expand...
We do see a significant increase in speed whenever someone uses a new SSJ form, however. And the literal description of Kaioken is that it "multiplies the user's ki".

I think you misunderstood. I was arguing that Ki affects more than just one stat at a time. We've already concluded more Ki = more strength, this means that more Ki also equals more durability. I'd fully say that Goku with 0 Ki would be much much slower than light, essentially a normal human with some natural Saiyan durability.

There's still the statement from Vegeta about a higher PL meaning higher speed, and since scouters measure Ki output that'd mean Ki = speed.
 
LordXcano said:
We do see a significant increase in speed whenever someone uses a new SSJ form, however. And the literal description of Kaioken is that it "multiplies the user's ki".

I think you misunderstood. I was arguing that Ki affects more than just one stat at a time. We've already concluded more Ki = more strength, this means that more Ki also equals more durability. I'd fully say that Goku with 0 Ki would be much much slower than light, essentially a normal human with some natural Saiyan durability.

There's still the statement from Vegeta about a higher PL meaning higher speed, and since scouters measure Ki output that'd mean Ki = speed.
Click to expand...
As I've already said. In DBZ, more power = more speed.

50x more power =/= 50x more speed.

That's the problem.
 
So far nothing much. I'm gonna have to looking into it a little deeper. Although for now I need to go. I'm going for tennis practice. I'll be back in 2 to 3 hours.

Could ya maintain this thread for me while you're on...
 
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