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The Dark Tower: Revisions Remastered, Part I

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Luminous Being, and no, in his profile nowhere is it stated he specifically views everything as fiction from his perspective, even if he is a stand-in for the real life GM.
 
Doubling back a bit before we get into that:

Xulrev said:
@King Well that leaves simply my point of The Rose, itself an explicit nexus of reality for the entire DT multiverse, existing within the Tower. If that doesn't make it Tier 0 then I will absolutely bow out and retract my point.
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This was something that confused me at first when I was still doing all of my (re)research on the verse and its cosmology...until I ran into this quote from DT7, which I hadn't given much thought the first time I saw it, but is a key to understanding the whole Rose thing in general:

There was a pause during which those gathered in that place considered the idea. Then Feemalo said, almost apologetically: "The cost might not be so great if one were just to consider this world, which we might call Tower Keystone, since the Dark Tower exists here not as a rose, as it does on many, or an immortal tiger, as it does on some, or the ur-dog Rover, as it does on at least one—"
"A dog named Rover?" Susannah asked, bemused. "Do you really say so?"

"Lady, you have all the imagination of a half-burnt stick," Fumalo said in a tone of deep disgust.

Feemalo paid no heed. "In this world, the Tower is itself.''
~ The Dark Tower​
Each world has its own physical representative of the Tower, each of which appears as something different. And this includes the Rose as we see it, as well as the Dark Tower which Roland enters at the end of the series.

So, in actuality, the Rose isn't a separate nexus that exists within the Tower. It's a physical manifestation of the Tower, just like the Dark Tower in Mid-World is a physical manifestation of the Tower on Maturin's shell rather than a separate thing altogether.

That quote probably should've been in the Pastebin entry about Gan and the Tower, but I was short of sleep when I put that together and I didn't think about it.
 
Kepekley23 said:
There's no level of transcendence greater than viewing something as fiction, so if viewing a 1-A as literally nonexistent is not 0, what could even possibly be rated as 0, to be fair?
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Superiority over an endless hierarchy of such things as a low end, for example? However, if at the present time even one level of such transcendence (and the status of the in-universe supreme being) is enough to get tier 0, then why not. In any case, I advocated the abolition of this tier itself.
 
As far as I have understood, Featherine, The Law of Identity, and Azathoth do transcend an infinite hierarchy of such reality-fiction differences, or something equivalent, yes. Perhaps we have been too lenient regarding assigning some tier 0 ratings?
 
Let's see here:

The One Above All

High Outerverse level (He is the Supreme Creator of the "Omniverse," i.e. everything in Marvel Comics, and is immensely greater in power than all other characters combined, as they are all extensions of himself. Has been called "The author of all that is." Marvel Comics has outerversal characters such as Oblivio, and has shown realms / locations beyond all dimensional space)

The Writer

High Outerverse level (Wrote DC Comics in its entirety, and is transcendent over all of its characters and concepts, as they are all nothing but fiction from his or her perspective.)

Monitor-Mind The Overvoid

Notes: The Overvoid seems to be the background that makes all forms of existence, and all concepts and ideas possible. The symbolized white canvas itself, and as such the ultimate supreme being of the entire DC Comics franchise.

It does not appear to be omniscient, as it did not initially understand the nature to the flaw within itself/the DC multiverse. Given that said multiverse was created within ("drawn on") The Overvoid against its will, it is presumably only a tool used by The Writer

Kami Tenchi

"Kami Tenchi is a transcendent entity that is as incomprehensible and boundless an existence to the Choushi (who are already transcendent in relation to dimensions, nonexistence, logic, and any scientific theories), as they are beyond the understanding of ordinary beings."

The Amaranth

High Outerverse level (The Amaranth is the flowering statehood of Boundless "Zero" which stands beyond CHIM, and beyond all AE, wherein an individual enters a state of Eternal Sensory Deprivation and steps beyond the Dreams of the Godhead, dissolving into the sea of featureless potential and becoming bereft of all characteristics, emerging as the Impersonal Cosmic Unity completely devoid of all illusions of duality and restriction, the boundless and indivisible state of limitless and indescribable Void from which all ideas, numbers and possibilities spring into being, outside of all else but Its own unbound consciousness. Holds the Dreamsleeve, the most fundamental level of all existence which is devoid of all forms of time and space and contains all possible ideas and information, as an aspect of itself alongside all of the Aurbis and beyond, with even Anu and Padomay being merely the most fleeting and minuscule echoes of its infinite consciousness)

Anu

High Outerverse level (Having flowered into the statehood of Amaranth, and thus rising beyond CHIM and beyond all "AE", ANU became the unerased and all-encompassing Godhead, the Eternal I that is completely unbound by all illusions of duality and restriction, and which stands simultaneously above the highest gradient and below the lowest subgradient of existence, free of all things but its own infinite consciousness, and able to Dream all ideas and possibilities into being)

I count six Tier 0 profiles (over half of all of the Tier 0 profiles that currently exist on the wiki) which, correct me if I'm wrong, have exactly the same reasoning as what's currently being used to propose Gan as an addition to the tier. That means one of two things is the case here:

  • The reasoning is solid justification, and therefore Gan should be upgraded to such. Or...
  • The reasoning is not solid justification, in which case over half of our current Tier 0 profiles are wrong and (in some cases) have been wrong since before I arrived to this wiki.
I'm not leaning towards either, but I would like some form of explanation, because I find the idea of dismissing Gan to be a bit suspect when several other Tier 0 profiles have identical reasoning to what his justification would be. Especially considering just how long some of these profiles have held their Tier 0 status for such reasoning.
 
Antvasima said:
Perhaps we have been too lenient regarding assigning some tier 0 ratings?
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There it will be easier to remove this part from the definition Tier 0:

"To even be considered for Tier 0, a character must at the very least transcend baseline 1-A characters in the same manner that they exceed ones who are bound by dimensions."

And add the status of the supreme or sub-supreme being as a criterion. Then it will probably be fit.
 
@King

Based on our current standards, and your examples, I think that Gan seems to fit as tier 0.

The issue is that DarkLK is the one who came up with the structure for our current tiering system in the first place, so I wonder if we have made mistakes in the past, or should define a tier S or somesuch for the characters that are beyond an infinite hierarchy of reality-fiction differences like the ones for Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The One Above All, Anu, The Amaranth, Ga, or Kami Tenchi, for example. The Creator (Umineko no Naku Koro ni), Featherine Augustus Aurora, The Law of Identity, Azathoth (Cthulhu Mythos), and Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos) would probably all qualify for such a tier.
 
I don't have much to say about that, honestly. Although I find the idea of The One Above All and Kami Tenchi not fitting the original standards of Tier 0 to be a bit odd, considering they've both apparently been ranked that tier since it was originally created four years ago. (I wasn't here back then though, so I have no way of knowing the details surrounding that without tracking down whatever discussion was had)

Either way, it's up to whoever. I can't say the latter idea wouldn't make sense, all things considered.
 
I just meant that the group that I mentioned first do seem to fit tier 0 as we currently define it, but the second mentioned group seem to have considerably more impressive definitions, so maybe an even higher tier would be appropriate for them? I may be mistaken though.
 
@Antvasima

The current examples correspond to the definition of "supreme or sub-supreme beings that are immeasurably superior to baseline 1-A". There is probably a need to correct the official definition.
 
@Ant:

Being perfectly honest, that's always been the most confusing thing about 1-A, High 1-A (back when that still existed) and 0 to me. 0 has always been divided between "Category A: Character transcends everything, including a bunch of 1-As, to an unfathomable degree" and "Category B: Character transcends everything, including an infinite number of 1-A characters/beings/spaces which transcend the last", and 1-A has characters like Nyarlathotep who seem like they'd fall into the latter category of 0 if it weren't for there being other beings who transcend them as well.

So, yeah, splitting Tier 0 entirely is an option that makes perfect sense to me. Since there is, in fact, a group of Tier 0 characters who seem like they should be on an immensely higher level than the others and we've just sort of been ignoring that for a long time.

EDIT: I think the discussion on that should be had later on, though. We're straying a bit far from the purpose of this thread, at this point.
 
Almost none of the active editors (who cactually reate high-tier pages) seriously think about "how far this character is in 1-A" or something like that. I do not see any reason to split tier 0 (which is a continuation of 1-A). This simply will not work.
 
@DarkLK

So perceiving all 1-A beings as fiction is not sufficient to qualify as you see it? Please elaborate.

@MrKingOfNegativity

I have had similar concerns. However, I am not knowledgeable enough about the specifics of this type of transcendental philosophical metaphysics to define proper definitions and distinctions on my own to do anything about it, and also did not want to cause any structural chaos within the wiki, or conflict among the staff.
 
I'm not huge on this sort of stuff either. It's why I stay away from 1-A matches.

Like I said though, I think the discussion (if it happens) is best had some other time. This thread really isn't the place for it.
 
DarkLK said:
Almost none of the active editors (who cactually reate high-tier pages) seriously think about "how far this character is in 1-A" or something like that. I do not see any reason to split tier 0 (which is a continuation of 1-A). This simply will not work.
Click to expand...
Okay. I am not sure how to properly solve this then. I would prefer to keep our current strict requirements for tier 0, and not let in characters like Haju, but at the same time, there is a massive distinction between certain characters in the tier, if we could manage to properly define it, preferably with the help of yourself, Azathoth, Sera, and Assaltwaffle.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
I'm not huge on this sort of stuff either. It's why I stay away from 1-A matches.

Like I said though, I think the discussion (if it happens) is best had some other time. This thread really isn't the place for it.
Click to expand...
Yes. You are correct.

For what it is worth, I think that Gan seems to fit just as well for tier 0 as most of the other current entries.
 
@Ant

Well, if character A perceiving character B (usual dimensional object) as fiction, we don't give tier 1-A to character A just because of this. That is, such a perspective between reality and fiction is not always as great as the distance between 1-A and the usual dimensional object.

And I do not think that much will change, if the character B is a dimensionless object. Then the character A simply looks like a dimensionless object of a greater order, but we cannot say, that it's superior to character B to the same extent as character B surpasses usual dimensional objects. At least without further clarification.

If we can actually say this about Ga (due to some additional clarifications and interpretations), then I do not have problems with his tier and correspondence with the current definition.
 
@DarkLK

Okay. Thank you for the input. Regrettably, as you know, I do not have very great insights regarding these types of concepts, and as such have a hard time coming up with a good solution.

Perhaps somebody could ask Azathoth and Sera to comment here?
 
I've already asked Sera, and she hasn't replied in any fashion.

I'll try to get Azathoth's attention, but if this is still anything to go by, I have really shaky hopes that he's going to respond.
 
DarkLK said:
1-A matches are so terrible just because those who are not huge on this sort of stuff in fact don't stay away from them.
Click to expand...
Thank you for reminding me and my ego that a large chunk of the wiki doesn't have the common sense that I do.
 
@Ant

Best of all, if someone helps to make a clearer interpretation for Gan.

For example, something like "Gan is "the author of all that is" and from its perspective, there is no difference between dimensional and dimensionless objects, because even Pennywise's true form is "no more than the smallest mote" inside Gan's mind"

Since he is the author, there is hardly such that objects do not occupy a place in his mind at all. But since even dimensionless ones are infinitely small, then all the others are also, which means that for him the very perspective between dimensional and dimensionless objects is insignificant.

This is my attempt to explain why he can be comfortable in tier 0 according to the information provided. This may be a mistake, but in any case we need something like this if we want to avoid inconsistencies.
 
The best way to reach Azathoth is through Discord iirc, but even that will be hard given how busy he is. I unfortunately don't have him on there, so I won't be able to, but if someone else does, they could.
 
I've already sent him a message there. But like I said, I don't see much likelihood of him responding, and if he does, it probably won't be for a good while.
 
@King

You can tell Sera that I would appreciate her input if you wish.

@DarkLK

Okay. Thank you for the help.

@Medeus

That would be appreciated, yes.
 
Sorry to go back to my objection if you don't mind @King:

Fifteen minutes later he stood across from the large dark structure thrusting itself at the summer sky, trying to keep his jaw from coming unhinged and perhaps dropping all the way to his chest. It wasn't the Dark Tower, not his Dark Tower, at least (although it wouldn't have surprised him to know there were people working in yon sky-tower—some of them readers of Roland's adventures—who called 2 Hammarskjöld Plaza exactly that), but he had no doubt that it was the Tower's representative in this Keystone World, just as the rose represented a field filled with them; the field he had seen in so many dreams.

This is from chapter 3 part 3 of The Dark Tower and is Jake discussing The Tower in which The Rose resides in the Keystone World; The Rose is representative of the field of roses, not the Dark Tower, which does make sense since it's Bessa's sigul and not Gan's.

Feemalo is correct that a rose is an aspect of the Tower in other worlds, just as the Talisman is for example, but I do not believe it is truthful to claim that The Rose the Ka-tet of the Rose protects in the Keystone World is simply another Tower stand-in since it is referenced to be an entirely separate entity. The Tower in the plaza is the aspect in the Keystone World according to Jake within that very quote, so I would find it hard to buy into the idea that both The Rose and The Tower represent the Dark Tower while one resides within the other even on Keystone Earth.
 
I believe I mentioned this already, but Bessa as an entity doesn't actually exist outside of the comics, which we aren't going to be using anymore due to being non-canon. The only time Bessa is ever mention wholesale in the DT books is when someone randomly praises her alongside all of the other cosmic beings, with no actual explanation as to who she even is.

As for Jake believing that the Plaza is the Tower's representative, there's some stuff contradicting that which you may want to consider:

  • The Plaza was built by men in 1977, and flat-out didn't exist at any point prior to that. This would likely make it the only Tower representative we see that is 100% man-made, and would also make it the only representation that isn't implied to have been around for hundreds to thousands of years.
  • Inside of it is a relatively normal building. Compare that to the other building-shaped representatives that always seem to have something blatantly supernatural going on with their inner structure. (ex: The Tower itself being a reflection of Roland's life, Black House's inner layout changing every time Jack Sawyer blinks)
  • All of the Tower's other confirmed representatives are revealed to be living things, and the ones we actually see (the Tower Keystone, the Talisman and Black House) are eventually even shown to have a "voice" that speaks to the character viewing it. The Rose fits this description almost perfectly. The Plaza doesn't.
That said, it occurs to me that containing an alternate nexus of an infinitely-layered reality (if that were the case here) wouldn't necessarily put it beyond High 1-B. As far as I am aware, the Aurbis in The Elder Scrolls is made up of infinite layers, each of which is itself a structure of infinite layers, yet it's still treated as High 1-B on the site. With that in mind, the Tower still being a High 1-B construct despite containing another nexus of infinite worlds and layers is still relatively reasonable.
 
Right about the High 1-B. 1-A would be being beyond the confines of these layers in any way, not just at the top of some sort of ever increasing infinite set.
 
@King

I had glossed over the part about the comics not being considered as canon any longer on the wiki in your OP, my apologies on bringing Bessa into the conversation then. That's gonna heavily alter Maerlyn and the Great Old Ones pretty heavily as well, wew (for another thread I realize but....damn, that's a lot of material for those figures in particular to miss out on).

But, all that said and done: if being infinitely above a nexus of the multiverse is indeed still High 1-B, then yes the rating for the Tower should still stand per wiki rules and my understanding of what would qualify something for Tier 0 (especially in light of the conversation that occurred on this very thread) was seemingly woefully mistaken.

I withdraw my line of query and thank you for your time, in light of that. But I am rather curious to see the next thread for the CK, Great Old Ones, Maerlyn, et all now, having considered the fact of the comics' canon being dismissed.
 
Yeeeeaaaah...

I don't really like it that much, but if the comics are their own separate canon, it isn't right to draw info from them. Thankfully though, it's going to eliminate a lot of inconsistencies that we would've had to deal with before.

As for the later threads, I'd rather not bring them up until it's time. Because I'm really not going to enjoy what needs to be said in some of them.
 
I was hoping we could get to that after this was done with, since we'd be removing info from a lot of the profiles we have right now.
 
Also, I made contact with Azathoth. He said he'd try to see what he could do/say once he got home, although I don't know if or when he's actually going to show up, since that was likely to have been several hours ago.

Either way, I seem to have gotten across that this is something that will probably require his presence.
 
Okay. Thank you for the help.
 
No, we're not bringing up Roland and Walter now. It says so right in the OP
 
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