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The Dark Tower: Revisions Remastered, Part I

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It would be hypocritical for us to do so while keeping the old Discord group members banned for the same reasons, but you can politely take it up in private with Ryukama and Kepekley23 if you wish.
 
Antvasima said:
It is probably best if you ask all of the members listed in The Dark Tower verse page and the relevant section of the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here.
Click to expand...
I'm just going to be blunt here; that list isn't all that reliable to use anymore. A chunk of the members on it aren't even active anymore or have had extremely sporadic activity lately, and some of the other people on it or are mostly knowledgeable on the comics, or have only read certain books connected to the series.

From what I can tell, most of the people who're directly and reliably knowledgeable on the verse (that I'm aware of) are already here at this point.
 
I agree with King, it might be best to either nyx it or promote it more often to basically get it updated.

I use it but only sometimes. Sometimes, supporters + opponents list on every verse page gets me more replies from members. Othertimes the list. But still. It is heavily outdated.
 
Well, you can ask the active members and staff listed there at least, to help make sure that we do not make any mistakes.
 
Here are some of the less frequently asked staff members that you can select from to ask to give input when there are no knowledgeable members available:

Kepekley23

SomebodyData

Dragonmasterxyz

Celestial Pegasus

Dark649

Monarch Laciel

Saikou The Lewd King

Gemmysaur

AKM Sama

Wokistan

Andytrenom

Qawsedf234

Sir Ovens

Warren Valion
 
Azathoth would probably be here on his own by now if he weren't busy with something. He was directly involved with helping me, after all.

I'll try asking some of the others after I get off work, though.
 
I probably should have specified that, but yeah. Penny's avatar would be something along the line of "Varies, at least Large Mountain level+ in its strongest physical form, likely higher"

"Likely higher" comes from the fact that the AP is based upon the strongest earthquake in history (which Penny's quake was hilariously superior to), and due to the numbers themselves being extremely close to the peak of the tier.
 
No, because none of Its forms are portrayed that low in terms of strength.

Bear in mind that taking a bullet and then regenerating after without even reacting to the fact that you've been shot is still well within the means of a Wall level character, because bullets can still deal penetrative damage to things that durable. And as far as Penny is concerned, all of its forms are at the very least capable of ripping limbs off people, which is 9-B.

So, if a low-end were to really be imposed, it'd be "Varies from Wall level to at least Large Mountain level+"
 
Its werewolf form wasn't even really "injured" so much as "shot for the sake of the writer showing how pointless shooting it with a normal gun is".
 
The Wolf just kinda shrugged off the bullet, so I doubt its even PIS to begin with

Everything here seems good.
 
Has anybody asked Azathoth, DarkLK, and Sera yet?
 
Sera was asked, and as Mr King said, Azathoth will come on his own if he's not busy. I have asked DarkLK though.
 
Okay. Thanks. It is good if we get input from members who understand tiers 1-A and 0 well if this seems to qualify.
 
Looking at the OP again:

The Dark Tower is the physical form of Gan given substance per the books; wouldn't the Tower itself also qualify as Tier 0 per the rationale given for Gan since it's just his body in the Keystone World? Apologies if I missed the evidence laid out in the linked text reference for why we shouldn't believe as such, and I don't see a strong case for separating the 'spirit' of Gan from the 'body' of Gan.

@KingofNeg, your thoughts if you don't mind engaging me yet again on the subject. Not objecting to your OP, just wanting further clarification
 
I think main 1-A stuff seems to be in this pastebi detailing a void beyond time, directions, geometry, and the universe, with the Dark Tower already being accepted as High 1-B and part of Gan's universe. Still reading through everything myself.
 
Finished reading the thread and pastebins, and I feel like the ratings proposed in the OP are fine. 9-B to High 7-A avatar makes sense, since bullets can still hurt 9-B things irl and some bullets will even penetrate 9-As due to surface area.
 
If the "predates time as a concept" quotes actually mean what they are being claimed to (I don't know the verse's terminology to argue against that, and I usually trust King's judgement), then I'm fine with that void being 1-A.
 
Xulrev said:
Looking at the OP again:
The Dark Tower is the physical form of Gan given substance per the books; wouldn't the Tower itself also qualify as Tier 0 per the rationale given for Gan since it's just his body in the Keystone World? Apologies if I missed the evidence laid out in the linked text reference for why we shouldn't believe as such, and I don't see a strong case for separating the 'spirit' of Gan from the 'body' of Gan.

@KingofNeg, your thoughts if you don't mind engaging me yet again on the subject. Not objecting to your OP, just wanting further clarification
Click to expand...
It doesn't quite work when you try to look at it that way. If the Tower were Tier 0, it would have to transcend the beings which are already stated to transcend the multiverse it embodies. Which, naturally, doesn't make any sense in context.

Furthermore, unlike Gan himself, the Tower has a few glaring limitations, including outright collapsing and ceasing to be if all of the Beams are destroyed and having to be "carried" on Maturin's shell in order to avoid falling into the void. Things that have such a gigantic weakness don't qualify for Tier 0 on general principle.
 
@KingofNeg

I'll address the Beams first:

The Beams required the Crimson King channeling hundreds of psychics gathered from across every level of the Tower for an absurdly long amount of time to even begin breaking; the same King who is (currently) Tier 1. I don't believe a centuries-long plan of a Tier 1 to tear down a monument built by (but not actively mantained-by) a Tier 0 which is said 0's physical embodiment is a limitation per se. It also required the Ancient Ones replacing bits of it with their absurd tech as well as Maerlyn's assistance via the Prim (the thing from whence Gan arose), but even they couldn't simply wholesale tear down the Tower even though it was their explicit goal initially.

Also....it's absolutely a cop-out argument, but 'Okay but the Tower needing to fall is the plot for a reason, and Roland's tale needing to be told is the reason' is also why the Beams even begin failing. The entire meta-narrative with Stephen King gets absurdly odd when examined in the context of The Tower itself however, especially when you recognize King technically created the Tower by writing it into existence canonically (by channeling Gan) yet The Tower contains that story within its levels, which brings me to my second point:

The fact that The Tower contains within its levels the world which spawned its existence (The Keystone World) in writing is proof that it transcends the multiverse it embodies, I would assert. The Tower contains Stephen King who is writing the tale and Roland's progresssion, and as a result will always be beyond those who try to break it because of plot. The Tower is the plot given substance pretty much, witht he plot being Gan's will through Stephen King.

Side note: Maturin can be argued to carry Keystone Earth on his back, I don't actually recall anything claiming the Tower relies upon the Turtle.

Apologies for how odd this might come off, and please do feel free to question any of the points that seem odd to you.
 
It's pretty clearly and consistently stated that the Tower resides on the Turtle's back, and he holds it up:

"Gan bore the world and moved on," Roland replied. "Is that what you mean to say?" / "Aye, and the world would have fallen into the abyss if not for the great turtle. Instead of falling, it landed on his back."
The world here is implied to mean all of creation.

I had a dream last night that I think breaks the creative logjam on It. Suppose there's a kind of Beam holding the Earth (or even multiple Earths) in place? And that the Beam's generator rests on the shell of a turtle? I could make that part of the book's climax. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm sure I read somewhere that in Hindu mythology there's a great turtle that bears us all on his shell, and that he serves Gan, the creative overforce. Also, I remember an anecdote where some lady sez to some famous scientist, "This evolution stuff is ridiculous. Everyone knows that a turtle holds up the universe."
 
It's also consistently stated that the Tower is Gan given physical form, given that the edifice of the Dark Tower is his body.

I think the point of 'A Tier 0 created a physical embodiment of himself which fits within his own multiverse and thus is on Maturin's back' isn't necessarily defeating my point, for what it's worth.

Though I do accept that it's likely Maturin simply carries the multiverse upon his back, somehow, and not solely the Keystone Earth....even though Maturin dying seems to make less sense presuming this context is accurate.
 
A Tier 0 creating a physical body does not necessarily mean that that physical body is Tier 0 too. Yog-Sothoth is a good example of that, his avatars are 1-A and his true form is 0. The Dark Tower is in that same situation, it is an avatar of that true self of Gan
 
There's another flaw in the argument that should probably be addressed, and that's the idea that Keystone Earth is what spawned the Tower.

As stated in DT7, Stephen King didn't actually create any of the things he's written about, and that's especially true of all of the worlds in the Tower:

Feemalo paid no heed. "In this world, the Tower is itself. In the world where you, Roland, have most lately been [referring to Keystone Earth], most species still breed true and many lives are sweet. There is still energy and hope. Would you risk destroying that world as well as this, and the other worlds sai King has touched with his imagination, and drawn from? For it was not he that created them, you know. To peek in Gan's navel does not make one Gan, although many creative people seem to think so. Would you risk it all?"
King's writing (from the context of the setting) didn't spawn the Tower. It's the other way around; King is one of Gan's "prophets", telling a story he has already dictated about a multiverse he has already created well in advance.

(Note: I'm going to be at work for a while, so I won't be responding to anything else right away.)
 
While fair, I don't believe any of that diminishes my point on Stephen King residing within the layers of the Tower. I do think that's a pretty major point for my thesis above, in addition to the fact that The Rose exists within the Tower's layers as well, itself a nexus of all reality for the entire Dark Tower multiverse.
 
@King

Oooo, good catch! I haven't done my yearly re-read so had gotten that quite mixed around, thank you very much!

Well that leaves simply my point of The Rose, itself an explicit nexus of reality for the entire DT multiverse, existing within the Tower. If that doesn't make it Tier 0 then I will absolutely bow out and retract my point.

Thanks @Crimson and @King for engaging the points good-naturedly so far, I don't get to discuss this series like this with many people, I'm genuinely enjoying it.
 
I see no problems with Turtle and Clown being 1-A if they are transcendental to the Tower.

But I do not quite understand why Gan is tier 0. Although even with such a justification, he does not look worse than some other representatives of this category.
 
Gan would be Tier 0 due to directly viewing everything in the setting, including Pennywise and Maturin (and the voids each of them reside in) as fiction.

Or at least that's what I assume would permit such a thing, since I've seen other current Tier 0 characters with a justification identical to that.

Also, I'll be addressing Xulrev's last point when I get home. There's something very specific related to the Tower and the Rose which I need direct quotes to really elaborate upon in detail.
 
There's no level of transcendence greater than viewing something as fiction, so if viewing a 1-A as literally nonexistent is not 0, what could even possibly be rated as 0, to be fair?
 
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