The Courier vs Sole Survivor

[Overlord775]

Fallout New Vegas's protagonist faces off against Fallout 4's, who shall rule supreme over the wastes?

SBA, also they are both assumed to be the same gender so no black widow shenanigans. No companions for either of course.

Patrolling the mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter: 0

Another settlement needs your help. here i'll mark it on your map: 0

Inconclusive: 0

 

[Stillwinston]

I'm going to assume that neither will be able to SI the other here, what's the best skill feats we got for Survivor? Courier can do things like beat Lanius in a 1v1 who is stated to be the top fighter in the entire Legion. Is superior to Boone who can gun down scores of legion soldiers by himself in one ending, is superior to NCR rangers who are hand picked for their combat skill to perform missions deep behind enemy lines where they'd be heavily outnumbered (Courier can slap entire squads of these people btw)

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I'm going to assume that neither will be able to SI the other here, what's the best skill feats we got for Survivor? Courier can do things like beat Lanius in a 1v1 who is stated to be the top fighter in the entire Legion. Is superior to Boone who can gun down scores of legion soldiers by himself in one ending, is superior to NCR rangers who are hand picked for their combat skill to perform missions deep behind enemy lines where they'd be heavily outnumbered (Courier can slap entire squads of these people btw)

Survivor has stronger firepower in the form of modified weapons such as the MIRV nuke launcher (though depending on how the range is handled that particular one could just be a suicide option), has formal military training, plus depending on the ending has fought an entire chapter of the Brotherhood who were highly equipped and defeated the Institute who have Coursers that are considered superior to humans, synths, and other robots in intelligence and combat. With just a single courser being enough for the Railroad to immediately stop everything and hide in fear of being destroyed. Survivor is also listed as being smarter on the profiles though I'd personally say they are comparable considering the Think Tank and Institute have a similar level of achievements, only difference is the Sole Survivor actively builds and modifies things while the Courier typically just outsmarts.

Best direct skill feats probably just amount to how much credit you give the Coursers, since the Sole Survivor has killed a bunch of em with X6-88 being stated to speak highly of their combat skill, something they apparently don't do lightly

 

[Stillwinston]

Survivor has stronger firepower in the form of modified weapons such as the MIRV nuke launcher (though depending on how the range is handled that particular one could just be a suicide option)

Yeah I'm gonna assume the tier 8 stuff is likely gonna be hard for either to use here considering the range, then again 4km could make it happen assuming they're that far apart. Courier last I checked could call down a sat beam from space assuming he has it and could catch ss by surprise.

has formal military training,

So do most NCR soldiers, their rangers are far greater than that and Courier still clowns them even in a group vs 1. Ditto with being better than Boone being superior to them and who still gunned down dozens of mooks before being subdued by himself. Blowing up the brotherhood is a respectable feat however Courier can also clown on them, in fairness though the mojave chapter was a shadow of itself.

I'd argue that Courier is better in melee considering he can outskill and defeat Legate Lanius who was the greatest fighting amongst the masses of the Legion and Courier was also better than Ulysses (Still had no clue what he was saying lol) Courier can also fight through an entire nest of Nightkin which can turn invisible Predator style too.

With just a single courser being enough for the Railroad to immediately stop everything and hide in fear of being destroyed. Survivor is also listed as being smarter on the profiles though I'd personally say they are comparable considering the Think Tank and Institute have a similar level of achievements, only difference is the Sole Survivor actively builds and modifies things while the Courier typically just outsmarts.

Best direct skill feats probably just amount to how much credit you give the Coursers, since the Sole Survivor has killed a bunch of em with X6-88 being stated to speak highly of their combat skill, something they apparently don't do lightly

Railroad from what I recall isn't all that powerful military wise, they rely more on stealth and sabotage rather than straight up fighting. Coursers however do seem to be impressive fighters being comparable to terminators from what I've seen and can tear through gunners who are heavily armed and armoured.

Moving on from this Courier has much better luck feats than from what I've seen from ss. Courier was lucky enough to survive being shot point blank and be buried alive with his rescue being chalked up to this more or less. Lucky enough to clean out entire casinos via legit gambling, lucky enough to bullshit a security system by yelling ice cream, make attacks, even point blank melee ones miss via sheer luck. SS has decent ones there but Courier is nearly Nagito levels of bonker there.

Also I know I said SI likely won't work Courier does Terrifying Presence which does induce Fear Manip, this works even on bloodlusted raiders that want to kill him btw. Though from starting at 4km I doubt this will work.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Yeah I'm gonna assume the tier 8 stuff is likely gonna be hard for either to use here considering the range, then again 4km could make it happen assuming they're that far apart. Courier last I checked could call down a sat beam from space assuming he has it and could catch ss by surprise.

The beam takes a while and has a red laser pointer for it, fat man/MIRV launchers would just be quicker

So do most NCR soldiers, their rangers are far greater than that and Courier still clowns them even in a group vs 1. Ditto with being better than Boone being superior to them and who still gunned down dozens of mooks before being subdued by himself. Blowing up the brotherhood is a respectable feat however Courier can also clown on them, in fairness though the mojave chapter was a shadow of itself.

Yeah, the formal training was just for a minimum standard and I wouldn't consider what the Courier did even remotely close since the Bonston Brotherhood and the Mojave one are practically night and day in status, near peak vs rock bottom since the Boston one had far better gear, location, and resources

I'd argue that Courier is better in melee considering he can outskill and defeat Legate Lanius who was the greatest fighting amongst the masses of the Legion and Courier was also better than Ulysses (Still had no clue what he was saying lol) Courier can also fight through an entire nest of Nightkin which can turn invisible Predator style too.

I would agree that Courier is better in pure hand to hand, mainly due to most enemies in Fallout 4 preferring ranged combat, but considering SBA they would be starting at range and it's unlikely that the Sole Survivor would give it up easily since his strongest weapons are far ranged and many of their weapons overlap with the Courier's with the exception of being modified in various ways, including better range. As for the Nightkin there are enemies in Fallout 4 that also turn invisible, such as the Coursers who all carry stealth boys or enemies that have Legendary gear that gives the effect (I feel like there are others but I am struggling to find em lol)

Railroad from what I recall isn't all that powerful military wise, they rely more on stealth and sabotage rather than straight up fighting. Coursers however do seem to be impressive fighters being comparable to terminators from what I've seen and can tear through gunners who are heavily armed and armoured.

While they aren't as powerful as say the Brotherhood in terms of raw firepower and power armor, they actually have very powerful gear. Their most notable thing is their ballistic weave armor, which is so armored that if applied to the right combination of items it can be half as strong as some power armor, with them having heavy fighters who use miniguns and stuff. They are largely a discount Brotherhood when it comes to direct combat, better than the Mojave chapter in general thanks to tactics but worst than a normal version.

Moving on from this Courier has much better luck feats than from what I've seen from ss. Courier was lucky enough to survive being shot point blank and be buried alive with his rescue being chalked up to this more or less. Lucky enough to clean out entire casinos via legit gambling, lucky enough to bullshit a security system by yelling ice cream, make attacks, even point blank melee ones miss via sheer luck. SS has decent ones there but Courier is nearly Nagito levels of bonker there.

While the Survivor lacks much of the dialogue options the Courier has, it should be noted that he has the better luck based abilities. He has stronger criticals, can store multiple which can be activated at any time (also they low-key defy physics sometimes since they practically always hit), have bullets not only miss but be deflected back at the opponent, and has a stronger vats due to how the critical system works in 4 and how luck largely just makes it more and more broken.

Also I know I said SI likely won't work Courier does Terrifying Presence which does induce Fear Manip, this works even on bloodlusted raiders that want to kill him btw. Though from starting at 4km I doubt this will work.

Likely wouldn't work since the Intimidation perk would probably also fall under that and is more combat applicable, since the Survivor can do this to basically any humanoid enemy from a distance, bloodlusted or not (plus I'd argue neither would work due to the nature of both characters, neither of them are at such a distance in stats that they could fear each other to such an extent)

Should also point out that the Survivor gets his own buffs for being alone in a fight, Lone Wanderer perk grants 30% less damage taken, deals 25% more, and gives more action points for VATS

 

[Overlord775]

bump

 

[Keeweed]

“neither of them are at such a distance in stats that they could fear each other to such an extent”
Nether of their fear manipulations rely on stats. The courier specifically is 9-B at the time they scare the 9-A brotherhood squadron into submission. And the 9-B sole survivor can scare 9-As that can also vaporize him. Neither resist fear but the courier can do theirs through a smile so if they are close the courier has the advantage there.

Though since they both start 4km away I think the courier wins through stealth or better endurance. Due to their implants and replaced organs if it comes down to who shoots first in a sniper battle the courier can survive the first shot and win the retaliation. Though I doubt he wouldn’t get the first shot because the stealth suit and their natural stealth are better than machines specially designed around finding better and better stealth suits. The courier has senses better than blind deathclaws which can track you for miles through sheer sound, so the courier should be able to see through the sole survivor’s stealth and get the first shot.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Nether of their fear manipulations rely on stats. The courier specifically is 9-B at the time they scare the 9-A brotherhood squadron into submission. And the 9-B sole survivor can scare 9-As that can also vaporize him. Neither resist fear but the courier can do theirs through a smile so if they are close the courier has the advantage there.

Would like to point out variety, since the Sole Survivor is also capable of using it on animals and wasteland monsters like Deathclaws. Plus the Sole Survivor is able to do so at a far range by just pointing their gun near the target. The main idea was the fact that both of their charisma is at such a point that the fear hax would kinda counter itself out since either they both scare each other shitless or they are just unable to impress the other

Though since they both start 4km away I think the courier wins through stealth or better endurance. Due to their implants and replaced organs if it comes down to who shoots first in a sniper battle the courier can survive the first shot and win the retaliation.

Big problem with that is that the Sole Survivor has noticeably better range and destructive output with their variety of weapons. Due to the gun modifications most of the weapons SS has are just direct upgrades in terms of damage, range, ammo, ect. The implants also are a minimum issue since SS has a similar level of regeneration and the other implants are just largely worthless in terms of tanking a hit and are more minor utility. And the replaced organ bonuses are just countered by the Lone Wanderer perk since it's a noticeably better increase

Though I doubt he wouldn’t get the first shot because the stealth suit and their natural stealth are better than machines specially designed around finding better and better stealth suits.

Recon scopes mark down targets, vats would see through it (with it having a better effective range than 6 due to better weapon range), SS has better mobility, and the Big Boy would still kill if shot in the general direction of 6 due to it carpet bombing 12 mini-nukes

The courier has senses better than blind deathclaws which can track you for miles through sheer sound, so the courier should be able to see through the sole survivor’s stealth and get the first shot.

While the invisibility is better, SS just has far better options for AOE and variety such as the many mind control grenades 6 doesn't resist, freezing them with the Cryolator, the Big Boy existing, durability negating legendary effects, ect

 

[Keeweed]

A large majority of the sole survivor’s weapons are out ranged too. Like the large majority of options you mentioned don’t reach the courier.

The courier’s social influencing powers also work on animals. And while fallout 4 is better designed at showing off how their fear powers can work in combat. The courier’s has still worked in combat scenarios with simpler movements and words. It doesn’t matter that they have good SI, the fear manipulation is still something neither resist. Though I think the courier is better in the SI regard to. He convinced a man he nuked to have a different personality, perspective at life, political opinion, and to be his friend in like 30 seconds.

Vats doesn’t see through invisibility nor stealth last I checked. Or at least it’s not supposed to even if it does in game. The courier specifically needed to get enhanced sense for that to work. Especially since the Sole survivor would need to know to use vats when he wouldn’t because the courier is both invisible and has vastly better stealth than his senses.

The courier has regeneration both from perks and his implants, more endurance and hardened skin from the implants, resistance to energy weapons, and doesn’t have a brain, heart, or spin to easily shot to death. The courier has a crap ton of endurance to survive anything minus like the mini nuke launcher. But the mini nuke launcher lacks range too importantly.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

A large majority of the sole survivor’s weapons are out ranged too. Like the large majority of options you mentioned don’t reach the courier.

My point was that the SS's weapons would be in range of 6 before vice versa due to having a good number of direct upgrades

Vats doesn’t see through invisibility nor stealth last I checked. Or at least it’s not supposed to even if it does in game. The courier specifically needed to get enhanced sense for that to work. Especially since the Sole survivor would need to know to use vats when he wouldn’t because the courier is both invisible and has vastly better stealth than his senses.

Under normal circumstances, you'd be right. However SS has their own enchanced senses via modification, recon sights bypass this as well as the Power Armor Targeting Hud, which highlights any living creature. Effectively negating any form of invisibility and allows for the SS to see through walls to some degree (which they can also shoot through with some perks)

The courier has regeneration both from perks and his implants, more endurance and hardened skin from the implants, resistance to energy weapons, and doesn’t have a brain, heart, or spin to easily shot to death. The courier has a crap ton of endurance to survive anything minus like the mini nuke launcher. But the mini nuke launcher lacks range too importantly.

The regeneration is evened out by the SS having the same level of regen, the implants don't help much when both sides have weapons that can one shot. And while 6 is missing those vital organs, they are replaced with electronic counterparts and will still die if taken enough damage. As far as we know the organs as just as vital as ever, just a bit more durable with some extra perks

 

[Keeweed]

The courier’s gun and laser and Gauss rifle makes it to SBA distance. The upgrades don’t matter because both are in range with weapons that can kill each other. It depends on who wins the sniper battle and I think the courier wins that because the guns that do reach each other are ones the courier resist or can easily survive.

Electrical counterparts that are specifically more resilient and easier to survive damage from than a squishy human brain and organs.

 

[Keeweed]

It’s not the invisiblilty that’s the problem, it’s the enhanced stealth manipulation that is further amplified by the stealth suit. I think that’s beyond the sole survivor’s equipment since technology designed to find the stealth suit, further enhanced repeatedly, fails to find the best stealth suit upon the end of the training. The Courier’s already insane stealth upscales like four times with it and they can already walk around with a bright light on in the middle of the open.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

The courier’s gun and laser and Gauss rifle makes it to SBA distance. The upgrades don’t matter because both are in range with weapons that can kill each other. It depends on who wins the sniper battle and I think the courier wins that because the guns that do reach each other are ones the courier resist or can easily survive.

For starters, SS also resists energy weapons to a high degree, so both of those are effectively worthless (without factoring equipment, SS has a natural +130 at any given moment). Plus with the crits system, even if the SS has a 1% chance of hitting, they will be capable of landing the shot meaning even outside the weapon's normal range they I'll be effective. The fight is either going to matter down to bullets or explosives, both of which the SS has an advantage in.

It’s not the invisiblilty that’s the problem, it’s the enhanced stealth manipulation that is further amplified by the stealth suit. I think that’s beyond the sole survivor’s equipment since technically designed to find the stealth suit, further enhanced repeatedly, fails to find the best stealth suit upon the end of the training. The Courier’s already insane stealth upscales like four times and they can already walk around with a bright light on in the middle of the open.

While the stealth is really good, none of the stuff made to detect it had the systems of the Power Armor Targeting system, which sees through walls and just detects any living things. Even at the Stealth Armor's peak it's still perfectly capable of tripping motion detectors if the user isn't careful. The only thing the stealth will help is the fact that 6 won't be herd, but the modifications will have them be seen. The stealth stacking doesn't really matter when the suit is directly countered by something we have no reason to believe it resists.

Also, kinda a major thing that should be pointed out. The SS would absolutely dominate if the fight got close at all due to me realizing some of the perks. If they get to 20% health or lower, then time slows for them, they get a +20 damage resistance, deal 20% more damage, regain action points 25% faster, deals 20% extra melee damage, and with the Far Harbor perks either deals 4 times damage or gains an additional +1000 damage and energy resistance... and if they get to 10% they heal 100 hp. Add on the added luck based combat abilities and it's highly unlikely that 6 could keep much of an advantage or one shot without heavy weaponry like a fat man

 

[Keeweed]

Both have a lot of minor peaks that increase damage. The courier’s also starts to stack up a bit high when you lay them all out. Is the sole survivor specifically stated to resist energy weapons. I know DR in general grants energy resistance but as far as I’m aware we only count resistance that is specifically stated (granted that maybe because that wasn’t brought up in the courier’s big revision as DR is weird).

 

[Keeweed]

I would find it very strange if the government didn’t put their best tracking system into machines they made to test their suit meant to hide them. Especially when these tracking machines are repeatedly upgrades upon trying to find the stealth suit like 4 times. However, biggest issue, the courier himself can sneak out in the open specifically with a flash light on. So even if the suit itself doesn’t provide stealth against sight the courier has stealth against sight. Plus the suit definitely does more than just muffle the courier, the courier is already 100% dead silent and can walk through traps due to their stealth and yet the suit still enhances them greatly.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Both have a lot of minor peaks that increase damage. The courier’s also starts to stack up a bit high when you lay them all out. Is the sole survivor specifically stated to resist energy weapons. I know DR in general grants energy resistance but as far as I’m aware we only count resistance that is specifically stated (granted that maybe because that wasn’t brought up in the courier’s big revision as DR is weird).

The +130 was in specific reference to energy weapons, the SS has a different set which amounts to +70 at any moment. I'm aware 6 had their own amounts but I was just pointing out that they both practically make energy weapons useless since they are both noticeably less resistant to bullets/nukes

I would find it very strange if the government didn’t put their best tracking system into machines they made to test their suit meant to hide them. Especially when these tracking machines are repeatedly upgrades upon trying to find the stealth suit like 4 times. However, biggest issue, the courier himself can sneak out in the open specifically with a flash light on. So even if the suit itself doesn’t provide stealth against sight the courier has stealth against sight.

To be fair, Fallout government is pretty wack and is pretty notorious in-universe for half-assing shit or making questionable decisions. Boston was the place where they put the most effort into the Power Armors and made the most experimental stuff for them, with you even being able to make one of these experiments in-game. So it's entirely possible they just didn't have access to it since there is no indication of this type of tech as they instead use motion sensors, proximity mines and standard robots to detect the suit, none of which have this ability. (Granted the first two are still capable of detecting the suit, it's just that 6 is too skilled to mess it up like that). And while the pip-boy light stealth is neat...... that still doesn't really help in this scenario since vats is still going to kick in, even if we assume the SS wouldn't notice 6 being highlighted (I would argue that the SS' own enhanced perception would allow them to see, but Fallout 4's compass is weird and just identifies any enemy searching for SS and I have no idea how that'd translate for a VS fight. Which could mean 6 has a literal tracker on him at all times for the fight, which granted SS would also have too)

 

[Keeweed]

I meant what the perk means for like outside of it. The courier specifically can be out in the open, with a spotlight pointing out their location, and still not be noticed. If human eyes staring at them don’t notice them then the machine giving you the ability to see them doesn’t matter because sight very clearly didn’t work the first time. The eye not having something to see wasn’t the problem.

The bullets is also something they resist both from their natural resilience and durability, the courier implants, and most importantly the 9-A armor versus 9-B guns. So they kinda are purely forced into an energy range battle unless the sole survivor wants to run through light speed attacks for like a mile until he gets in range for the other other weapons that can do anything.

Though I’m glad to know his energy resistance is directly stated too. I’ll still vote the courier but leaning closer to inconclusive. Both make it hard for their main weapons to kill each other so it just depends on if the sole survivor survive the approach and keep his mini nuke launcher’s safe (the courier can aim for the guns and they have 9-C durability). I don’t think it’s likely he can get close enough before being shot down and I think the courier’s better senses and stealth make him be the one that controls the pace of the ranged fight. But the sole survivor has a chance with the resistance.

Anything else than the energy weapons though and the courier can just tank it and heal it with stimpacks and regen. So the range battle is something both characters hard resist.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I meant what the perk means for like outside of it. The courier specifically can be out in the open, with a spotlight pointing out their location, and still not be noticed. If human eyes staring at them don’t notice them then the machine giving you the ability to see them doesn’t matter because sight very clearly didn’t work the first time. The eye not having something to see wasn’t the problem.

Which is why I kinda had to point out the heavy use of VATs, since the targeting system would allow SS to use it through walls with perks allowing them to shoot through them. 6 would need to stay completely out of their line of sight in order to get past it which would be hard considering SS can fly and thanks to SBA knows the direction 6 starts off in.

The bullets is also something they resist both from their natural resilience and durability, the courier implants, and most importantly the 9-A armor versus 9-B guns. So they kinda are purely forced into an energy range battle unless the sole survivor wants to run through light speed attacks for like a mile until he gets in range for the other other weapons that can do anything

SS also have the exact same arguments, since they also have 9-A armor (though it's enhanced versions), more perks that increase it, and ballistic weave armor which is as tanky as half a suit of Power Armor. Honestly in that scenario it leans rather heavily in SS's favor since the Energy weapons would be doing such little damage and it could be used to trigger the 20% health buffs which would give enough boosts to SS to just tank through and blitz practically everything 6 has save for a nuke. +1000 damage and energy resistance is no joke.

Also, if 6 is using the stealth suit, their durability is going to be noticeably worse than SS since it only has a DT of 14, which is noticeably worse than even the weakest of Power Armor... much less highly advanced ones that have been modified beyond twice their normal limits

Though I’m glad to know his energy resistance is directly stated too. I’ll still vote the courier but leaning closer to inconclusive. Both make it hard for their main weapons to kill each other so it just depends on if the sole survivor survive the approach and keep his mini nuke launcher’s safe (the courier can aim for the guns and they have 9-C durability). I don’t think it’s likely he can get close enough before being shot down and I think the courier’s better senses and stealth make him be the one that controls the pace of the ranged fight. But the sole survivor has a chance with the resistance.

I cant stress enough how BS critical hits are in 4, since they use luck to turn a 1% hit to a 100%, deal 4x damage (8x if using a modified gatling laser) not factoring in legendary effects, and SS can shoot 4 of them in a row. If he gets low before he gets close enough for the 1%, then he becomes Mahoraga and starts tanking it likes it's nothing, while also healing if it still drops too low, while also having enhanced perception time and speed. And if he doesn't get low then he can just use the crits once he's even remotely 'in range'. As for hitting the weapons, SS can do that normally too and also has the added perk of Luck ricocheting shots back towards the attacker, the Nuke launcher would only come out the moment it's going to be launched so there would only be one chance.

Anything else than the energy weapons though and the courier can just tank it and heal it with stimpacks and regen. So the range battle is something both characters hard resist.

SS also has weapons with explosive rounds like a Explosive Minigun or shotgun, various weapons which can double the damage of high caliber guns/explosives, the Cryolator which would freeze them, as well as the absurd crit effect/multipliers that legendary effects/mods can give.

These effects include freezing targets on critical hits, causing critical hits to frenzy a target, doubling the critical hit damage, and refilling action points..... wait, I just realized that the SS has Hub's alien blaster, which can be modified to a long range sniper, and has the legendary effect of doubling crit damage and giving +15% of the crit gauge per hit. That'd be pretty effective here

 

[Overlord775]

Just to bring it up since it doesn't look like it has been mentioned so far: Power armor would likely be a big factor in this fight.