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The Concept of Disease vs The Scholar of Mysteries (Hiragi Seijuurou vs Yakagi Suimei)

Under your definition the ability isn't passive. There is no difference in speeds of passives they are just passives. Seiji's conceptual absorption is considered passive. If you don't agree you will have to make a CRT.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
Under your definition the ability isn't passive. There is no difference in speeds of passives they are just passives. Seiji's conceptual absorption is considered passive. If you don't agree you will have to make a CRT.
Click to expand...
Passive doesn’t mean infinite speed, it just means that it is always in effect around you.
 
The definition of passive is that they have infinite speed. That's how we treat all passives. They have infinite speed in their area of effect. That's what makes them so broken and stupid to debate with.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
The definition of passive is that they have infinite speed. That's how we treat all passives. They have infinite speed in their area of effect. That's what makes them so broken and stupid to debate with.
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Not necessarily. All Passive means is that the action isn’t actively done, it means nothing about speed. I don’t see any description presented claiming that anyway, so for all I can tell it seems like an asspull.
Also the “that is how we treat it.” Is just an appeal to tradition; it doesn’t address or disprove the argument presented in anyway.
 
You don't need a description to say that your passive is always active in the area around you which=infinite speed that's just how it works and it does, you just have to think about it for a second. You also haven't debunked my argument and you are too caught up in the 'conditions' of his FC, consider his conditions flavour text or extra lore. You would have to make 2 different CRT's for your argument to be valid where I wouldn't have to make any.
 
'It is not just negative feelings, but any emotion Hiiragi interprets as such, whether it is someone loving him, pitying him, helping him or simply directing one’s awareness towards him will activate this ability. Even hiding one's feelings won’t work, as Harirankyu cannot be fooled by this tactic as Jingishou, assassins of Dan Karuma who had their feelings sealed, were still instantly absorbed by him.' It literally goes into why it's passive on his profile.
 
You kinda do need a description to say that. This isn’t a hard science and as I proved above it wouldn’t necessarily be instant. A hypothetical example would be... let’s say a toxic gas was constantly being let out by a machine, this is for all reasoning passive, that doesn’t mean that it kills or has a negative effect instantly. This is no different

Why should I just consider them a flavor text when it is essential to how the power works. All FC’s have these; you cannot just ignore them for no reason.

That quote says nothing about passivity, just that it is based on what he interprets and that hiding your emotions won’t help. In fact this kinda helps my case because 1 It suggests that he has to interpret something for his ability to work and 2 If this is your evidence for passivity than nothing on his profile needs changing. (I don’t even care if it is passive because my argument is that it doesn’t matter.)

You haven’t disproven anything I have said not proven anything
 
Regardless of Suimei's will, the law hax will happen, it's not Suimei doing it, it's a universal law, same as if I drop an apple from my hand, it will fall to the ground.

Also his fate hax has nothing to do with him either, he isn't even aware of it, the source has made him destined to one day fulfil the wishes of all beings, and grasp the infinite light that can grant any wish. Hence even if Alshuna a 2-A being concentrated all her power on boosting someone to be above Suimei it won't work, he has a destiny and said destiny makes ppl around find him dazzling, basically making them his allies.

Also Suimei has resistances to like 4-D mind and soul hax, how is forced cooperation gonna work in the first place?
 
Why are we scaling characters of of things like that? (At least that will actually need a CRT to be discussed.)
 
Rank Disparity Extinction is a law specific to magicians (Lefille as a spirit also has it too, and basically implied Gods do as well), besides those, other ppl don't have it, it also only nulls abilities, you can still try punching them.

There other mechanics too like Heroes resisting hax, cause they have Alshuna's blessing, or other stuff like phenomenon mixer, where before an ability manifests, it contains all possibilities and magicians can mess with that so the ability never manifests.

Though i think the others are more specific to the characters.
 
Honestly when it comes to verse specific rules like that I am unsure how that is meant to work cross verse. What would you count as a high ranking or low ranking magician for example in lets say Naruto (yeah I know this verse is far more haxxed but thats not my point).
 
Eh we should talk about this on the discussion thread.
I don’t see why the law being specific to magicians makes it a part of their kit specifically if it is a natural law. It isn’t something they can do, it is just how the world works.
 
A neutral verse where both characters can display their full abilities.

Rank Disparity Extinction is an important part of being a magician, it's why Suimei was afraid of fighting with high rank magicians, cause he thought he would be useless cause his abilities would be nulled.

Magicians aren't humans in the first place, their very existence is different becoming a magician requires leaving your humanity behind, and having a body which makes being apart of normal society a pain, ie their bodies are steeped in mystical laws so it has adverse effects on anything that goes by physical laws ie if they touch a phone it breaks, they have red eyes, can live without breathing etc.

All i am saying is it's a trait of Magicians. Lefille for example is even more blatant, she has it cause she is blessed with the power of the spirits, it's granted to her, not to mention magic also doesn't work on her due to that.
 
A neutral setting where their abilities can be shown. Rank disparity isn’t really one of the Magicians abilities instead it seems to be a natural thing that is important to being a Magician. Just because something is important to a job (let’s say mathematical concepts to an engineer.) we would not exactly call it “their ability.” Instead it is just something they understand that happens.
 
Except Magicians bodies are steeped in mystical laws and other ppl like Lefille are blessed with it. Engineers don't break technology just by touching it.
 
Yeah I guess if it is part of themselves in that way it is more valid. I should have agreed since the last comment honestly.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Except Magicians bodies are steeped in mystical laws and other ppl like Lefille are blessed with it. Engineers don't break technology just by touching it.
Click to expand...
If thats the case I guess I am fine with it its just above it sounded like some law of their world rather than some they have personally.
 
Bro you are just interpreting things the way you want too. Read what I posted 'It is not just negative feelings, but any emotion Hiiragi interprets as such, whether it is someone loving him, pitying him, helping him or simply directing one’s awareness towards him will activate this ability. Even hiding one's feelings won’t work, as Harirankyu cannot be fooled by this tactic as Jingishou, assassins of Dan Karuma who had their feelings sealed, were still instantly absorbed by him.'

'instantly absorbed' how is that not passive enough for you. Fight starts, in the exact same moment Sumei's Lawhax goes into effect Seiji's passive goes into effect hence inconclusive. You are arguing about esoteric shit that would matter outside of this wiki but for the purposes of this match and for the purposes of how we treat passive hax this is an inconclusive. You can't just say 'you haven't disproven anything' when you haven't proved anything yourself. Your toxic gas example is terrible as well as it's not what we would consider hax as even a normal human would take a while to be affected. You can't cherry pick a specific example that goes against the norm and use it to prove a point.
 
The reason i said very very loose conditions is cuz of how messed up seiji is considering you might as well consider even existing fulfilling the 2nd condition (Like his wife loved him unconditionally? ABSORBED. Hiding feelings? Still absorbed) with the first afaik he's in constant envy. Iirc in a battle royale 2 ppl got instant absorbed. I wasn't sure how affective this was cuz of Suimei's powernull passive or law hax (Doe i didn't really know dan's ability to powernull F).
 
Can someone explain how forced coercion is gonna get pass Suimei's resistances to make him subconsciously agree to Hiragi's request? Or why lets say, hypothetically Hiragi steals Suimei's powers, The Source would just let that happen? Why would that happen in the first place when a 2-A being explicitly can't usurp Suimei's position in The Source's plans?
 
That doesn't make sense. Sumei doesn't resist 2-A passive conceptual absorption. It's passives against passives and neither party resists therefore it's inconclusive.
 
Yeah staying with Suimei for CO’s explanation.
Passives aren’t as impressive as passive null and The Source.
 
Because Forced Cooperation means the resistances don't apply, because Sumei has allowed himself to be affected. That's what FC does.

Anyways, inconclusive FRA
 
How will Suimei let himself be affected? He can't just magically turn his resistances off. And think this is still going around the issue, that Suimei's astral body (mind and soul) have shown resistances to like 2-A stuff, 2-A conceptual mind and soul hax at that, how is Suimei gonna let himself just get affected? Doesn't make sense to me.

Also again why will The Source let Suimei's destiny be stolen, when it won't let another 2-A do it?

I can see some of the logic of inconclusive here with other Mahou characters, cause it's passive vs passive (albeit i think their passive is more impressive), but Suimei is backed by another entity on top of it.
 
People can't turn their shit off in Senshinkan either, but it still just works. In fact, that's a good explanation for FC, "it just works", as memed as it is because it's not even ******* wrong. Essentially, by fulfilling the conditions of the Forced Cooperation, the target has consented to be affected by the ability regardless of their actual intentions, to the point that Dan's FC, which creates a pocket dimension that does funky shit, continued to work after said dimension was destroyed or is left.

Not entirely sure what this means, and why exactly that destiny wouldn't itself be absorbed and eventually followed by this hypothetical Hiiragi, since he can steal stuff like that.

That entity can't really do anything to help here given the defense-bypassing of Forced Cooperation (plus it sounds distinctly like outside help to me).
 
This is sounding like an NLF, especially the suggestion that Hiragi can steal Suimei's destiny.

Suimei's destiny is well beyond the scope of Hiragi's hax, his hax is 2-B, you're suggesting that he can steal something, that even a 2-A being, can't steal.
 
Hiiragi can steal the ability to become a Rosei at a later date. Not sure what else you want, this is literally on his page.

Senshinkan stuff should be 2-A, iirc. Idk if the CRT for that ever went through, but ALRF has scans of it being 2-A that have been used in other matches and people earlier in this thread have treated it as 2-A.
 
Even if it was 2-A it still wouldn't matter. The Source scales well above baseline. It's the beginning and end of everything, explicitly called everything, and we know at least several sets of infinite universes exist.

Now 2-A isn't judged by size anymore, though i could argue that Mahou treats infinities as more impressive cause going from 1 set to the other, is seen as more impressive than going within 1 set.

However excluding that, The Source is stated to exist far deeper in the Abyss than Alshuna and Alshuna, a 2-A being, can't usurp Suimei's destiny. So explain to me how Hiragi can do it.
 
I don't see how something physically being above baseline 2-A would mean that its hax automatically is as well. We had a bunch of discussions about this because of the DBH crew, so you can't just say "this character is x tier/scales above y so their hax is that strong" without more evidence.
 
Alshuna can't steal Suimei's destiny. Alshuna is a conceptual being who can warp a conceptual realm containing several sets on infinite universes, on a whim.

But you're suggesting Hiragi can, which is why i think it's a NLF.

Suimei fate encompasses the entire multiverse, so even on that front, again, it's beyond Hiragi's ability.
 
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