- 3,295
- 1,272
- Thread starter
- #1,161
“Fictional” The thing that makes them fictional is because the work refers it as such. This is getting into a true scottsman territory where we will be saying, “even though this work defines this thing as fictional within it’s setting, its not truly fictional by our standards”.There are cases where fiction and reality are seen as equal" is a pretty meaningless argument against the concept of Reality-Fiction Transcendence because, in those cases, "fiction" simply really isn't a thing to begin with, and it's all just "reality." It's kind of a non-sequitur all around. Likewise, "There are verses where being fictional doesn't make you weaker" would just have us question what, exactly, makes those things "fictional" to begin with.
Can you define what truly fictional will be then?
You didn’t address my actual point or speak within the context of why I said that.but we are the ones who have decided that "stronger" means a higher tier." Yeah, no shit. We could, in principle, shove all of Tier 1 and Tier 2 into a single tier, but that'd just be useless and impractical, because that'd just mean you have a single, extremely dense tier with several large gaps within it, and no way to meaningfully differentiate those gaps. Thus we separate them.
Lawyer made the point that, in some works R>F is treated as state of being stronger. I made the point that not all things that are treated as state of being stronger are decided to be a higher tier.
I think this argument weak. I have yet to see a definition of R>F that can define the gap between layers without perspective. If you can then what what is that definition?Overall, I think the "It's all just perspective" argument against Reality-Fiction Transcendence is pretty weak. First and foremost because it doesn't actually eliminate the gap between two layers of R>F
How does this work against my point? It strengthens it.Secondly, because it fails to take into account that not all verses with R>F work like that. For example, you have Umineko, where the Reality-Fiction Hierarchy does, in fact, have an objective metric that differentiates its layers, namely the amount of restrictions your existence and power has. So, for example, you have humans (With the most restrictions) in the bottom layer and Creators (With no restrictions whatsoever) in the top layer. I wouldn't say this case is one where the superiority one layer has to another is purely perspective-based. Same goes for cases of R>F that are more metaphysically-inclined and less based on metafiction.
From basing on just what you are saying, if you put the humans and creators in a neutral space, the creators would not lose their potency.
If the power is truly tied to the layers and cannot be equated to the persons, then the difference between the layers is more than just reality vs. fiction and itself cannot translate or be equated to the other differences between layers of other fictions.
And of course, in a neutral space, characters would keep the circumstances of their verses that give them power and ability.
But what ability and power is being more real?
And to this, comes the fact that "If you put the real character and the fictional character on a neutral ground, the two would be on the same level" doesn't always hold true, either.
That has never been my argument.
There are, indeed, verses where the very idea is nonsensical, because the "fictional character" can't exist in the higher layer without being endowed with realness (And thus amped), and likewise the "real character" can't descend into a lower layer without forsaking their own reality (And thus being nerfed). In which case, it's impossible for the two states of existence to "intermingle" solely by having characters shift locations.
The idea that you call nonsensical wasn’t the idea i proposed. I said put two characters in a neutral space.
This already null and voids your example. The fictional character may need to have “realness” to exist on the same level of the real character within their story. But in the hypothetical neutral space, it doesn’t need it to exist there. The fictional and real character can exist both in the neutral space simultaneously. Who is stronger? Are they equal? That’s impossible to know without greater context.
And this is two characters within the same story. When we bring characters from two independent states, how are you even going to quantify realness to say one is real enough to intermingle?