The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[Mertullah]

i heard platonic concepts will be 1-A again??

What are platonic concepts and why exactly 1-A

 

[Robo432343]

why exactly 1-A

Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

thing is i can't find any source that talks about this

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

How descriptive does “Platonic Concepts” have to be, more specifically, what are the requirements to count a verse using that term?

 

[Genericstickman]

Yes.

neat, so which new (old) guys will be getting an upgrade for that?

 

[Agnaa]

neat, so which new (old) guys will be getting an upgrade for that?

man idk none of my verses have that nonsense in them

I'm no tiering scientist

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

does what he is using have r>f . Does it scale to high 1A in the new tier system or it does not reach 1A . Also is Veldanava gon be tier 0 or no in the new tier system tensei fans are saying he is a all in one and one in all with no anti feats

Tensei Shitara Slime No Datta Ken (Canon, Verse)/Astral Trinity

Hello, nice to see ya'll again, this time, I'll be explaining the Cosmology of That Time I Got Reincarnated As A Slime : Isekai Memories, one of the official games based of the Anime and Novel. That was all, hope you enjoy reading. Before beginning, I'd like to mention that, as we don't have...

character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Also is Veldanava gon be tier 0 or no in the new tier system tensei fans are saying he is a all in one and one in all with no anti feats

Veldanava gave up his omnipotence, thats already a massive anti-feat. Plus, merely being stated to be omnipotent or all-in-one stuff isnt enough to be Tier 0 on its own (which is all the evidence Veldanava has afaik), so it doesnt seem he qualifies either way.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

does what he is using have have r>f . Does it scale to high 1A in the new tier system or it does not reach 1A . Also is Veldanava gon be tier 0 or no in the new tier system tensei fans are saying he is a all in one and one in all with no anti feats

Tensei Shitara Slime No Datta Ken (Canon, Verse)/Astral Trinity

Hello, nice to see ya'll again, this time, I'll be explaining the Cosmology of That Time I Got Reincarnated As A Slime : Isekai Memories, one of the official games based of the Anime and Novel. That was all, hope you enjoy reading. Before beginning, I'd like to mention that, as we don't have...

character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com

no

 

[Tyranno223]

Tier 0 hax/abilities can only be obtained by a Tier 0 performing something on your behalf.

Since High 1-A+ no longer has restrictions on the number of inhabitants per series, lower-tier characters can have abilities that operate on that degree.

Forgot to ask but can High 1-A+ characters be stronger than others in the same tier now?

 

[Phoenks]

Forgot to ask but can High 1-A+ characters be stronger than others in the same tier now?

Yeah. For example you could have a High 1-A+ with Tier 0 Smurf stuff.

Also I don't think that High 1-A+'s automatically possess every ability but maybe that's wrong. That tier is still a lil funky!

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Veldanava gave up his omnipotence, thats already a massive anti-feat. Plus, merely being stated to be omnipotent or all-in-one stuff isnt enough to be Tier 0 on its own (which is all the evidence Veldanava has afaik), so it doesnt seem he qualifies either way.

Veldanava gave up his omnipotence thing they counter it with something like will of god and Veldanava are not the same . that Veldanava is an avatar that the will created
this will tell you

Astral Trinity439/Conceptual God (Light Novel) VSBW Version

all-fiction-battles.fandom.com

 

[Mertullah]

Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

thing is i can't find any source that talks about this

Thank you, but are there any verses that work on platonic concepts?

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Thank you, but are there any verses that work on platonic concepts?

trinity seven

 

[Westcoast5005]

Thank you, but are there any verses that work on platonic concepts?

Dc comics

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Dc comics

they fail has Platonic
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/platonic-forms-disrespect-thread-2242221/they

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

they fail has Platonic
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/platonic-forms-disrespect-thread-2242221/they

dead link

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

they fail has Platonic
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/platonic-forms-disrespect-thread-2242221/they

Platonic Forms Disrespect thread - Gen. Discussion - Comic Vine

Table of contentsIntroductionProperties of formsAlgorithmExamplesSummarySourcesIntroductionIf you've seen a couple of threads involving (mostly featl

comicvine.gamespot.com

 

[LazerDim8000]

So this can possibly be evidence for 1a ?

 

[Ovy7]

Gotta say that the storm of upgrade threads that would come after all this revision is done would be quite a sight to see and entertain yourself with

 

[Tyranno223]

Yeah. For example you could have a High 1-A+ with Tier 0 Smurf stuff.

So we could also have say a High 1-A+ character who scales a bit higher than another one in power?

Also I don't think that High 1-A+'s automatically possess every ability but maybe that's wrong. That tier is still a lil funky!

Yeah, trying to wrap my head around the new changes in prep is a bit of a hastle because of that.

 

[Agnaa]

Forgot to ask but can High 1-A+ characters be stronger than others in the same tier now?

So we could also have say a High 1-A+ character who scales a bit higher than another one in power?

I believe all characters rated High 1-A+ would have the same AP, but they could differ in other regards.

 

[Fixxed]

i heard platonic concepts will be 1-A again??

Real platonic concept of course

Previous platonic concept in wiki will not be 1A even if that true platonic. That explanation are not enough for have 1A rating

It forget the most important part why that concept transcend reality as a whole. The Form (platonic concept) see the entire reality as shadow compare to it self. Without that statement i dont think platonic concept will get 1A rating by default, same as we dont give type 3 or 4 multiverse H1B or L1A by default

 

[Agnaa]

Real platonic concept of course

Previous platonic concept in wiki will not be 1A even if that true platonic. That explanation are not enough for have 1A rating

It forget the most important part why that concept transcend reality as a whole. The Form (platonic concept) see the entire reality as shadow compare to it self. Without that statement i dont think platonic concept will get 1A rating by default, same as we dont give type 3 or 4 multiverse H1B or L1A by default

I think it would be that easy because we're generally loosening our standards.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Is a failed Monad character going to be High 1-A+?

 

[Fixxed]

I think it would be that easy because we're generally loosening our standards.

But it not make senses at all even if we loosening the standard, we can take some randomly concept that stated to be eternal and unchanged also transcend time and space and make it 1A by default??
Even if that concept dont correctly use plato's theory of form??

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't think Ultima is trying to loosen the standard. If he regards Monadhood as false then obviously the same applies to Platonic Concepts. Everything requires context and support from the setting or else, we’ll randomly give verses free leeway into 1-A. I'm pretty sure like R>F, Monadhood, and many more, it requires actual proof if it does exist, whether it is used correctly, and whether it is coherent.

I don't like this idea, Ultima is trying to lose the standard. It's completely different from the previous wiki tiering. It may favor some verses but the very same could be said about the previous one. It doesn't matter whether it looks easier to gain 1-A and above, it's simply how we regard the changes whether something is greater in terms of mathematics or conceptually. Clearly, the Ultima revision favors conceptuality, which doesn't make it less or easier to gain tier than the previous. I feel some of the mods that were neutral or disagreed are being too harsh on his ideas. Like 1-A being too easy to get or 0 being too religiously composed when clearly that was never the intention.

 

[Agnaa]

But it not make senses at all even if we loosening the standard, we can take some randomly concept that stated to be eternal and unchanged also transcend time and space and make it 1A by default??
Even if that concept dont correctly use plato's theory of form??

If they demonstrably use it incorrectly then it wouldn't qualify.

But if they just name drop it without explicitly describing the properties we care about, I believe we'd still give it 1-A.

I don't think Ultima is trying to loosen the standard. If he regards Monadhood as false then obviously the same applies to Platonic Concepts. Everything requires context and support from the setting or else, we’ll randomly give verses free leeway into 1-A. I'm pretty sure like R>F, Monadhood, and many more, it requires actual proof if it does exist, whether it is used correctly, and whether it is coherent.

No, he's explicitly said otherwise about BDE and Type IV multiverses. I see 0 reason to believe he'd act differently for platonic concepts.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Is a failed Monad character going to be High 1-A+?

Based on what I've observed, some characters will ascend to a higher tier, such as 1A, while others will remain at their current tier, like Veldanava.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Real platonic concept of course

Previous platonic concept in wiki will not be 1A even if that true platonic. That explanation are not enough for have 1A rating

It forget the most important part why that concept transcend reality as a whole. The Form (platonic concept) see the entire reality as shadow compare to it self. Without that statement i dont think platonic concept will get 1A rating by default, same as we dont give type 3 or 4 multiverse H1B or L1A by default

now i get it why my verse didnt reach 1A yet on the current vsbw

 

[Robo432343]

But if they just name drop it without explicitly describing the properties we care about, I believe we'd still give it 1-A.

No.

 

[Fixxed]

But if they just name drop it without explicitly describing the properties we care about, I believe we'd still give it 1-A.

What??? Bruh..... i think the new standard doesnt work like that. That is absolutely absurd, everyone can take everything and explain it different from the original explanation, because it was just a fiction everything can happen

Even Dao in chinese novel have different explanation from each other verse

If it like that, it like saying "we dont care the context anymore, it is what it is"

 

[Robo432343]

there is no way this 1 statement is going to get 1-A

 

[Agnaa]

What??? Bruh..... i think the new standard doesnt work like that. That is absolutely absurd, everyone can take everything and explain it different from the original explanation, because it was just a fiction everything can happen

Even Dao in chinese novel have different explanation from each other verse

If it like that, it like saying "we dont care the context anymore, it is what it is"

Yeah, but Ultima doesn't think we should assume that they have strange explanations by default. That's why "above dimensions" without any additional context would be Low 1-A, and it would only need a little more context to be 1-A.

there is no way this 1 statement is going to get 1-A

Potential contradictions aside, it could. Just as how "They're from a more real world" or "They're from a more fundamental world" would.

idk why y'all're surprised; I repeatedly said "HEY EVERYONE, ULTIMA'S TRYING TO LOWER THE STANDARDS AND I THINK THAT SUCKS", to which Ultima responded "Yeah, they should be lowered" and other staff went "Seems reasonable".

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Based on what I've observed, some characters will ascend to a higher tier, such as 1A, while others will remain at their current tier, like Veldanava.

Why this correlated with False/Invalid Monadhood?

And if so, what the reason for False Monad to only get 1-A as they are closer to tier 0?

 

[Agnaa]

Is a failed Monad character going to be High 1-A+?

They'd be at whatever tier they'd land at without those monad statements.

Being a monad can bump a character from an otherwise 3-A cosmology to tier 0, so having such statements be contradicted could leave them at 3-A, or lower.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Why this correlated with False/Invalid Monadhood?

And if so, what the reason for False Monad to only get 1-A as they are closer to tier 0?

depends like Agnaa said and 1A is pretty simple if they show Qualitative superiorite

 

[MountainWine]

It’s crazy that blitzing a bunch of Hypersonic objects may not necessarily grant someone a Hypersonic+ rating but being a monad over a 3A cosmology grants Tier 0

 

[Agnaa]

It’s crazy that blitzing a bunch of Hypersonic objects may not necessarily grant someone a Hypersonic+ rating but being a monad over a 3A cosmology grants Tier 0

It's a bit weird, but that's what happens when the definition has nothing to do with the size of the cosmology, and solely comes from qualities of the character.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Still a damn plus for the Chinamen.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

But if they just name drop it without explicitly describing the properties we care about, I believe we'd still give it 1-A.

I wouldn't really treat it as such. The term "Platonism" itself eventually just morphed into a signifier for general belief in mind-independent abstract objects that doesn't really attach itself to Plato's actual ontology. People who call themselves "Mathematical Platonists" often don't actually think mathematical objects define and surpass (In our sense) reality, or some shit, even if they think those exist out there, hence you have contemporary philosophers saying that the main characteristic of such abstract objects is that they're utterly causally inert. At that point the word might as well have as much significance as "laser."

That said:

But it not make senses at all even if we loosening the standard, we can take some randomly concept that stated to be eternal and unchanged also transcend time and space and make it 1A by default??

I mean, if the verse describes Form like that, then they're just using the concept correctly in the first place. And in general, utter superiority over spacetime that goes beyond physical factors (e.g. If you're some conceptual realm beyond matter) is just 1-A to begin with.

Granted, given how much disagreement there is on what Plato's exact ontology even was, I think what tier "True Platonism" is would depend on which interpretation of him you pick. Neoplatonism would probably have the Forms be High 1-A+ (Through a downscaling of sorts, but, still), for instance.