The Boxer Problems

[Vzearr]

Yeah. And the proof is the panel of the shockwave itself. Now you prove that the shockwave we see isn't a shockwave.

Holy shit this is the worst fallacious argument I've ever seen.

Is it an appeal to ignorance, or a question beg, or shifting the burden proof. Let's play a game.

 

[azontr]

You are the one who said to keep the thread friendly, so let's not do that. We see a shockwave on panel, and we know that Yu's blows can regularly create shockwaves. It is nobody's burden but your own to prove the shockwave isn't real.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Holy shit this is the worst fallacious argument I've ever seen.

Is it an appeal to ignorance, or a question beg, or shifting the burden proof. Let's play a game.

To be frank, I don't think you know what those fallacies mean. Explain how what I said is an appeal to ignorance or begging the question. Go on.

 

[Vzearr]

To be frank, I don't think you know what those fallacies mean. Explain how what I said is an appeal to ignorance or begging the question. Go on.

Let's play a game, which fallacy is the correct one.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Let's play a game, which fallacy is the correct one.

It's not any fallacy. You asked for proof. The proof was already shown. It's not on me to prove that a shockwave we see with our own eyes is a shockwave. It's like asking me to prove that there's a person on the panel. Do you want proof that he's real too?

 

[Vzearr]

didn't we literally have a thread about this being limited dura neg

Durability Negation (Internals).

Link to the page for reference. Yeah so, for some reason we list attacking internals as "Durability Negation". This is misleading in what durability negation even is, as defined by the page itself "The ability that allows users to damage the target, regardless of their durability." but attacking...

vsbattles.com

We have like no evidence it attacks the internal organs. Stop this.

 

[Vzearr]

It's not any fallacy. You asked for proof. The proof was already shown. It's not on me to prove that a shockwave we see with our own eyes is a shockwave. It's like asking me to prove that there's a person on the panel. Do you want proof that he's real too?

Show proof that that is a shockwave in the photo you sent.

Bro, the proof is in the photo of it being a shockwave.

That's inherently fallacious.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Show proof that that is a shockwave in the photo you sent.

Bro, the proof is in the photo of it being a shockwave.

That's inherently fallacious.

No, that's called self-evident evidence. You can see a shockwave, and you claim it isn't a shockwave. You have to prove it's not. Otherwise you can make brain dead arguments like "Prove the person on the page that we see is a person."

Do you realize how ignorant that is? Not you, I want to make that clear. Just that line of reasoning in general.

 

[Vzearr]

No, that's called self-evident evidence. You can see a shockwave, and you claim it isn't a shockwave. You have to prove it's not. Otherwise you can make brain dead arguments like "Prove the person on the page that we see is a person."

No, there is a difference.

If we depict photo's like that as shockwaves, then literally every ******* fiction would be transonic.

It's more like "can you prove that water is salt water".

Do you realize how ignorant that is? Not you, I want to make that clear. Just that line of reasoning in general.

No I don't.

 

[Lilybitdun]

1. Resistance to: Analytical Prediction - This doesn't mean you can resist someone predicting where you're going, and this justification is bunk. This is not analytical prediction, this is just learning and adapting.

Can you elaborate why you think these examples and justifications are bunk?

 

[Vietthai96]

It is shockwave though, pretty common shockwave drawing style in manga

No, there is a difference.

If we depict photo's like that as shockwaves, then literally every ******* fiction would be transonic

No, not really, manga drawer like use this kind of shockwave drawing to show how strong the strike is without the need to spell it out

 

[azontr]

No, there is a difference.

If we depict photo's like that as shockwaves, then literally every ******* fiction would be transonic.

It's more like "can you prove that water is salt water".

Not every shockwave is transonic, dude. It's literally just wind pressure. What are you even talking about.

 

[LaserPrecision]

No, there is a difference.

If we depict photo's like that as shockwaves, then literally every ******* fiction would be transonic.

That is a completely incorrect sentiment. Vs wiki doesn't treat shockwaves as transonic by default. There's even a page explaining that. So this is irrelevant.

It's more like "can you prove that water is salt water".

Not comparable. You can tell a shockwave is a shockwave by looking at it. You can't tell salt water is salt water by looking at it.

 

[Vzearr]

Can you elaborate why you think these examples and justifications are bunk?

Because changing movement mid punch isn't going to trick someone with analytical prediction because they can predict that you're going to mov

It is shockwave though, pretty common shockwave drawing style in manga

If we classed those as shockwaves you're gonna wanna be around for how many verses get upgraded.

Not every shockwave is transonic, dude. It's literally just wind pressure. What are you even talking about.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, OFCOURSE THEY'RE IT'S IN THE DEFINITION.

That is a completely incorrect sentiment. Vs wiki doesn't treat shockwaves as transonic by default. There's even a page explaining that. So this is irrelevant.

WHAT THE ****.

 

[azontr]

Because changing movement mid punch isn't going to trick someone with analytical prediction because they can predict that you're going to mov

It quite literally did trick somebody with very good analytical prediction, lol. It's all on the profile. You can just go read it, but you clearly haven't read it at all.

 

[Vzearr]

It quite literally did trick somebody with very good analytical prediction, lol. It's all on the profile. You can just go read it, but you clearly haven't read it at all.

I debunked their anpr. Lol.

 

[LaserPrecision]

WHAT THE ****.

Yeah, site doesn't accept shock-waves as Supersonic by default. Cuz some authors just use it to emphasize strength in series with characters below Supersonic in speed.

 

[azontr]

Saying "this isn't this because I said so!" Isn't a debunk, it's not even an argument. Analyzing and absorbing data to predict an opponent's moves is analytical prediction. Objectively. The reasoning is on the profile. Please read it.

 

[Vzearr]

Saying "this isn't this because I said so!" Isn't a debunk, it's not even an argument. Analyzing and absorbing data to predict an opponent's moves is analytical prediction. Objectively. The reasoning is on the profile. Please read it.

No it's just learning from the past. I did read it.

Yeah, site doesn't accept shock-waves as Supersonic by default. Cuz some authors just use it to emphasize strength in series with characters below Supersonic in speed.

WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS.

IM GOING INSANE WITH THESE DEBUNKS HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA.

 

[Vietthai96]

If we classed those as shockwaves you're gonna wanna be around for how many verses get upgraded.

I'm the supporter of one of those verse though, Dragon Ball, shockwave punch everywhere

Anyway guys stop, you all have said your arguments, let staff members evaluate the thread from here, this is dangerously going to extremely heated territory, let not turn this thread into a controversial topic

 

[Lilybitdun]

WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS.

IM GOING INSANE WITH THESE DEBUNKS HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA.

Dude calm down

 

[azontr]

No it's just learning from the past. I did read

Yeah. Learning from the gathered information he collected to predict his opponent's moves. Every type of analytical prediction works through past information, dude. You have to gather data and then use that to predict. That's just how the ability works.

Anyway guys stop, you all have said your arguments, let staff members evaluate the thread from here, this is dangerously going to extremely heated territory, let not turn this thread into a controversial topi

The only person getting heated and throwing around insults is Vzearr, tho.

 

[LaserPrecision]

WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS.

IM GOING INSANE WITH THESE DEBUNKS HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA.

Do you want me to screenshot an excerpt for vs wiki or is a thread moderator literally saying this is the case enough for you? If the latter is fine then well...

No, not really, manga drawer like use this kind of shockwave drawing to show how strong the strike is without the need to spell it out

 

[Baken384]

This thread sucks close it down

 

[Vzearr]

Yeah. Learning from the gathered information he collected to predict his opponent's moves. Every type of analytical prediction works through past information, dude. You have to gather data and then use that to predict. That's just how the ability works.

That's not though. Read the precog page.

The only person getting heated and throwing around insults is Vzearr, tho.

Where did I throw an insult.

I took a breather, because I was upset. Apologies for caps lock.

Do you want me to screenshot an excerpt for vs wiki or is a thread moderator literally saying this is the case enough for you? If the latter is fine then well...

No I want an admin telling me straight up, I asked agnaa.

 

[Robo432343]

This thread sucks close it down

ong
straight up buns

 

[Vietthai96]

The only person getting heated and throwing around insults is Vzearr, tho.

I know Vzearr is somewhat aggressive, but you guys also could goes into the same territory by keeping exchangong words with him, i meed to prevent it first hand before you guys losing yourselves, especially over a simple power like this. Let staff taking care of the thread from now

Alright, you and @Vzearr can summarise your arguments in one post, staff will evaluate it

 

[Vzearr]

This thread sucks close it down

Right, I'm the one throwing insults, huh. This is hard not to be angry at.

 

[LaserPrecision]

No I want an admin telling me straight up, I asked agnaa.

Alright. That'll make things easier for me.

 

[Huesito88]

ong
straight up buns

Stop derailing Robo

 

[Viott]

There is no evidence that he threw a max of 3 lol. We only see that onscreen.

It is assumed that he threw three punches because there are three sound effects.

Yeah, but it's not a semi ellipsoid.

The shape most closely resembles a semi-ellipsoid.

 

[Chariot190]

Right, I'm the one throwing insults, huh. This is hard not to be angry at.

He's less talking about you and more the back and forth here.

 

[Vzearr]

Okay, I was triggered, sorry. We can continue this. I've taken a breather.

What are the main things you want me to summarize?

 

[azontr]

I cannot cover any of the calculation sections as I didn't do this calcs and they aren't my expertise, so I'll just cover the abilities for staff.

1. Limited Durability Negation has already been covered extensively throughout the thread, but I'll provide the scans for it. The first instance is a bit weak, with the punches being described as "piercing," but then it's corroborated with an explicit visual showing of the force of Yu's blows travelling through his opponent, both in the instance of John Taker and with Yuto Takeda, we can see the shockwaves literally blowing through their body in a way that wouldn't happen with typical blows. Normally Yu's blows make a person's head blow up so we know this isn't just an action of raw strength at work. And we also know that these shockwaves are real shockwaves (for obvious reasons that are obvious). It's not actual dura neg, of course, it's limited in that it can only partially bypass things like guards or defense to make attacks hit with more force, but that should still qualify. Yu also gains the ability to actually internally damage his opponent's organs, even against characters he can't even budget with normal punches, by training this piercing power.

2. Analytical prediction. I'll just provide the scan for it here, but it's also on Yu's profile. This is very obviously analytical prediction. I don't think I need to explain why. As for the resistance to it, I can't get the scan right now, but long story short, all "Genius" Boxers in the series have a concept called "freedom" or "flow" that is unique to them and allows them to create their own style of optimized movements. A genius boxer, Siha Lee, is unable to predict another genius' movements due to his level of "freedom" being superior to Siha's. That's why the resistance is universal to characters who possess this freedom. The thread which implemented it is really old with blurry scans but the arguments remain generally the same.

 

[Vietthai96]

What are the main things you want me to summarize?

Just write down the reason on why you disagree with those abilities you mentioned in OP

 

[Vzearr]

Okay, with confirmation from agnaa.

We do not classify shockwaves being slower than transonic. Just wanted to make it clear.

1. Limited Durability Negation has already been covered extensively throughout the thread, but I'll provide the scans for it. The first instance is a bit weak, with the punches being described as "piercing," but then it's corroborated with an explicit visual showing of the force of Yu's blows travelling through his opponent, both in the instance of John Taker and with Yuto Takeda, we can see the

The punches traveling through their body doesn't lead to the conclusion that he hit vital organs, every punch that someone lands travels through the body, but it doesn't mean they have dura neg.

shockwaves

You need to prove they're shockwaves

literally blowing through their body in a way that wouldn't happen with typical blows.

No, this is just AP.

Normally Yu's blows make a person's head blow up so we know this isn't just an action of raw strength at work.

Wdym by this.

And we also know that these shockwaves are real shockwaves (for obvious reasons that are obvious). It's not actual dura neg, of course, it's limited in that it can only partially bypass things like guards or defense to make attacks hit with more force, but that should still qualify.

How do we know they're real shockwaves, can you explain? They could just be wind. I disagree with the idea of them being shockwaves. Please prove they are.

2. Analytical prediction. I'll just provide the scan for it here, but it's also on Yu's profile. This is very obviously analytical prediction. I don't think I need to explain why.

This is achievable by humans.

The most mundane examples of Analytical Prediction are scarcely better than what's achievable in real life

So anpr needs to be above what real boxers can achieve, which this isn't.

As for the resistance to it, I can't get the scan right now, but long story short, all "Genius" Boxers in the series have a concept called "freedom" or "flow" that is unique to them and allows them to create their own style of optimized movements. A genius boxer, Siha Lee, is unable to predict another genius' movements due to his level of "freedom" being superior to Siha's. That's why the resistance is universal to characters who possess this freedom. The thread which implemented it is really old with blurry scans but the arguments remain generally the same.

The scans don't tell me this is resistance to anpr.

 

[azontr]

The punches traveling through their body doesn't lead to the conclusion that he hit vital organs, every punch that someone lands travels through the body, but it doesn't mean they have dura neg.

I never said that they did, because you don't necessarily need to strike at vital organs to have limited durability negation. That's never been a part of the first key justification, it's something you've made up.

In truth, it really doesn't matter if they're actually shockwaves. In fact, if they're just visual representations of the force of Yu's blows, even better. That's proof JH intended to communicate the idea that Yu's punches are piercing, which only further supports me.

This is achievable by humans.

No it is absolutely not. Not a single human being on the entire planet can do what Siha does. This is ignorant. To begin with, the page doesn't even say that it needs to be above the human level to qualify, it just says that they are mundane examples. This isn't a mundane example, but either way.

The scans don't tell me this is resistance to ananpr

What it tells you specifically does not matter. What it's actually saying does. And what it's saying is what I am saying. This isn't about what it tells you or me, it's about what's actually happening on screen.

 

[Vzearr]

I never said that they did, because you don't necessarily need to strike at vital organs to have limited durability negation. That's never been a part of the first key justification, it's something you've made up.

What is limited durability negation. I'd assume it has to follow the definition of dura neg.

In truth, it really doesn't matter if they're actually shockwaves. In fact, if they're just visual representations of the force of Yu's blows, even better. That's proof JH intended to communicate the idea that Yu's punches are piercing, which only further supports me.

I didn't deny they're piercing.

No it is absolutely not. Not a single human being on the entire planet can do what Siha does. This is ignorant. To begin with, the page doesn't even say that it needs to be above the human level to qualify, it just says that they are mundane examples. This isn't a mundane example, but either way.

It kinda is, he just learns from how the guy fights and computes it into his next fight.,

 

[Vietthai96]

Okay okay, stop, both of you

I cannot cover any of the calculation sections as I didn't do this calcs and they aren't my expertise, so I'll just cover the abilities for staff.

1. Limited Durability Negation has already been covered extensively throughout the thread, but I'll provide the scans for it. The first instance is a bit weak, with the punches being described as "piercing," but then it's corroborated with an explicit visual showing of the force of Yu's blows travelling through his opponent, both in the instance of John Taker and with Yuto Takeda, we can see the shockwaves literally blowing through their body in a way that wouldn't happen with typical blows. Normally Yu's blows make a person's head blow up so we know this isn't just an action of raw strength at work. And we also know that these shockwaves are real shockwaves (for obvious reasons that are obvious). It's not actual dura neg, of course, it's limited in that it can only partially bypass things like guards or defense to make attacks hit with more force, but that should still qualify. Yu also gains the ability to actually internally damage his opponent's organs, even against characters he can't even budget with normal punches, by training this piercing power.

2. Analytical prediction. I'll just provide the scan for it here, but it's also on Yu's profile. This is very obviously analytical prediction. I don't think I need to explain why. As for the resistance to it, I can't get the scan right now, but long story short, all "Genius" Boxers in the series have a concept called "freedom" or "flow" that is unique to them and allows them to create their own style of optimized movements. A genius boxer, Siha Lee, is unable to predict another genius' movements due to his level of "freedom" being superior to Siha's. That's why the resistance is universal to characters who possess this freedom. The thread which implemented it is really old with blurry scans but the arguments remain generally the same.

Okay, with confirmation from agnaa.

We do not classify shockwaves being slower than transonic. Just wanted to make it clear.

The punches traveling through their body doesn't lead to the conclusion that he hit vital organs, every punch that someone lands travels through the body, but it doesn't mean they have dura neg.

You need to prove they're shockwaves

No, this is just AP.

Wdym by this.

How do we know they're real shockwaves, can you explain? They could just be wind. I disagree with the idea of them being shockwaves. Please prove they are.

This is achievable by humans.

So anpr needs to be above what real boxers can achieve, which this isn't.

The scans don't tell me this is resistance to anpr.

I never said that they did, because you don't necessarily need to strike at vital organs to have limited durability negation. That's never been a part of the first key justification, it's something you've made up.

In truth, it really doesn't matter if they're actually shockwaves. In fact, if they're just visual representations of the force of Yu's blows, even better. That's proof JH intended to communicate the idea that Yu's punches are piercing, which only further supports me.



No it is absolutely not. Not a single human being on the entire planet can do what Siha does. This is ignorant. To begin with, the page doesn't even say that it needs to be above the human level to qualify, it just says that they are mundane examples. This isn't a mundane example, but either way.

What it tells you specifically does not matter. What it's actually saying does. And what it's saying is what I am saying. This isn't about what it tells you or me, it's about what's actually happening on screen.

This is pretty much arguments from both sides

@FinePoint @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Godernet @Imaginym

Sorry for the ping, but you guys' help is needed

Also @Dalesean027 there are calc stuffs so sorry but i need your help too

 

[azontr]

I don't see why I have to stop anything. I summarized my points, Vzearr responded, and I feel it's within my right to do so as well so long as I remain civil. There's no rule forcing me to wait for staff members to argue for me.