The Big Bleach Speed CRT

[USklaverei]

The rest of the characters still need to see who they are climbing, but until then I only made those that are affected by the multipliers.

 

[Damage3245]

@USklaverei; okay, I'll go through what you've currently got.

One of the first things is that I don't think Byakuya's reactions should be scaling to Bankai Ichigo since in two occasions during that fight Ichigo completely blitzed Byakuya and got right in front of him / behind him without being able to track Ichigo - at least until Ichigo starting slowing down.

So I think he should be "High Hypersonic (Superior to Renji) with High Hypersonic+ attack speed (Controlling his Bankai with the palm of his hand, he doubles his attack speed)"

 

[USklaverei]

ok

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, the next part is that I don't think we should scale Grimmjow to be equal in speed to Masked Bankai Ichigo.

Grimmjow was casual with pre-training Bankai Ichigo before, that is true, but Ichigo still wasn't being completely outsped as you'd expect someone to be from a 5 times speed difference. And post-training Bankai Ichigo was still able to keep up with Grimmjow somewhat after his mask broke.

Based on Grimmjow's brief performance against Ichigo when he only had 11 seconds of mask time available, I wouldn't rate Grimmjow as being Ichigo's equal in speed.

I think it'd be better to put the scaling as:

Masked Bankai Ichigo = Resureccion Grimmjow >>> Grimmow >= Post-Training Bankai Ichigo > Pre-Training Bankai Ichigo.

 

[USklaverei]

Ichigo was only able to follow him visually, but he was unable to do anything, except that Grimmjow was totally injured and worn out by having been beaten earlier by Ichigo.

We know that Base Grimmjow was MUCH superior to Bankai Ichigo in the first fight, in the second, even Ichigo with his Hollow Mask, Grimmjow was still able to react to his attacks and even surprise him with Cero and movements, even totally injured.

 

[Damage3245]

@USklaverei; superior to that version of Ichigo, yes, but not to the point of a 5x multiplier I think. Even during their first fight we have instances of Ichigo keeping up with Grimmjow, much like how Grimmjow could react to Mask Ichigo.

We could give Grimmjow higher reactions for being able to react to Mask Ichigo's attacks. But he's not on his level.

 

[AppleLord]

If that's the case, get the scans for it, pixelscale if needed, and put a number of the movement achieved while he counted.

I have the scans. But don't have someone to calc it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Is damage saying that base Grimmjow doesn't scale in speed to the first version of Hollow Mask Ichigo we see post-vizard training?

 

[Damage3245]

Is damage saying that base Grimmjow doesn't scale in speed to the first version of Hollow Mask Ichigo we see post-vizard training?

Grimmjow can react to Ichigo, but I don't think he's his equal in speed.

When Ichigo first dons the mask, he rushes at Grimmjow which Grimmjow just manages to block in time (but he can't do anything to block or escape the Getsuga Tensho Ichigo unleashes).

Ichigo then throws another Getsuga Tensho at Grimmjow, which Grimmjow just manages to block, but Ichigo blitzes him and gets behind him in that instant to hit him with another attack.

Grimmjow shoots a Cero at Ichigo and manages to attack him but Ichigo blocks both of his attacks seemingly without much difficulty - and then at this point his mask shatters as he's telling Grimmjow that he's basically won the fight.

Even without his mask on, Ichigo manages to block Grimmjow's subsequent attack.

So is Grimmjow superior to Bankai Ichigo at this point? Yeah, I think he is. But I don't think he is equal to masked Ichigo, or should be rated five times faster than Bankai Ichigo.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

When Ichigo first dons the mask, he rushes at Grimmjow which Grimmjow just manages to block in time (but he can't do anything to block or escape the Getsuga Tensho Ichigo unleashes).

Grimmjow blocks Ichigo's first attack just fine despite starting with his blade sheathed and being surprised with Ichigo's new form. He then fails to dodge a point blank attack. None of this indicates Grimmjow isn't on par with that Ichigo in speed.

Ichigo then throws another Getsuga Tensho at Grimmjow, which Grimmjow just manages to block, but Ichigo blitzes him and gets behind him in that instant to hit him with another attack.

Grimmjow is heavily injured and he is questioning what's going on, so saying this extremely injured Grimmjow is at his full speed is bit disingenuous. Ichigo being able to blitz a Grimmjow drenched in his own blood, isn't indicative of Ichigo blitzing Grimmjow at Grimmjow's fullest capabilities.

Grimmjow shoots a Cero at Ichigo and manages to attack him but Ichigo blocks both of his attacks seemingly without much difficulty - and then at this point his mask shatters as he's telling Grimmjow that he's basically won the fight.

I wouldn't call this Ichigo "casually" reacting to Grimmjow. When characters blitz each other in Bleach it's normally a lot of flashy dodging, with one character not being able to touch the blitzing character at all. That's not the case here. Then this weakened Grimmjow proceeds to style on maskless Ichigo.

Even without his mask on, Ichigo manages to block Grimmjow's subsequent attack.

Grimmjow swung his sword directly into where Ichigo's blade was. However, even still Ichigo is clearly struggling without his mask to fend off this weakened Grimmjow. Slower characters block faster characters attacks all the time too, I direct you to Ichigo vs Res Ulq. Currently we rate that Hollow Mask Ichigo to be roughly the same as a serious base Ulq, so Res Ulq would be 5 times faster and Ichigo still blocked. Same case here, Grimmjow is on par with this Masked Ichigo so he'd be ~5 times faster than Ichigo, yet Ichigo still blocked an attack.

So is Grimmjow superior to Bankai Ichigo at this point? Yeah, I think he is. But I don't think he is equal to masked Ichigo, or should be rated five times faster than Bankai Ichigo.

Grimmjow is able to keep up fairly well with Masked Ichigo despite the grevious injuries he's obtained, if anything this fight serves to show that with the Mask Ichigo can out power a base Grimmjow. It's a bit of a stretch to say Grimmjow doesn't scale in terms of speed here.

If you look at the fight in totality, base Grimmjow and Mask Ichigo are reacting to each other's attacks, with the only instances of Grimmjow being "blitzed" being when he's either distracted by a separate attack or he's distracted by Ichigo's new form. He's certainly much closer to initial Masked Bankai Ichigo in speed than he is regular Bankai Ichigo.

 

[USklaverei]

Feel free to change it in my sanmage Damage

 

[Damage3245]

@USklaverei; I'd prefer not to edit your sandbox, so I will update my own with the Limiter Release multiplier, and add an explanation at the top of the sandbox like yours, if that's alright.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; while I think you've made some good points (and I do agree that Grimmjow isn't being completely blitzed here since he can block some of Ichigo's attacks), as you've stated:

Slower characters block faster characters attacks all the time too

So Grimmjow just barely being able to block Ichigo's attacks (while being clearly overpowered and damaged by them after just a few seconds of combat against Masked Ichigo), I don't think it would be right to scale him as being equal to Masked Ichigo.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; while I think you've made some good points (and I do agree that Grimmjow isn't being completely blitzed here since he can block some of Ichigo's attacks), as you've stated:



So Grimmjow just barely being able to block Ichigo's attacks (while being clearly overpowered and damaged by them after just a few seconds of combat against Masked Ichigo), I don't think it would be right to scale him as being equal to Masked Ichigo.

That's fair but I don't think we should shove him on Bankai Ichigo's level either as that's arguably less accurate, he's somewhere in between and imo he leans closer to initial Masked Ichigo in speed. So maybe 3x faster than Bankai Ichigo as that's slower than initial Masked but leans on the side of closer to Masked than not, I don't know if that's a legal move here.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; unfortunately we can't just assign a multiplier in cases like this.

We can say he is "At least X, likely higher" where X is Bankai Ichigo's speed at the time.

 

[USklaverei]

all right

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Sounds fair enough

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Damage3245 you might be missing Zommari in your sandbox.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245 you might be missing Zommari in your sandbox.

Ha. That's ironic. How could I have forgotten the fastest Espada?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ha. That's ironic. How could I have forgotten the fastest Espada?

Ah yes Zommari quite "memorable" indeed, but for a sandbox for speed very ironic. Funny enough you reference him under Byakuya's speed justifications in your sandbox.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Damage3245 yo would you be able to list the values associated with the speed ratings for these characters? Like something along of the lines of "characters that are MHS from the arrancar arc are X m/s."

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; yeah, when I have time to update the sandbox today I'll include an explanation section like Usk's.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; yeah, when I have time to update the sandbox today I'll include an explanation section like Usk's.

Awesome, thank you!

 

[RanaProGamer]

Question, has any decision been made on the Mimihagi speed feat? I saw that the original calc has been disregarded. Have we found another method?

 

[Damage3245]

Question, has any decision been made on the Mimihagi speed feat? I saw that the original calc has been disregarded. Have we found another method?

I'm planning to make a thread after this one to address the Post-Timeskip feats and ratings.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Oh ok.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@RanaProGamer if you’re curious what the contenders are for the Soul Palace distance/speed related calcs, here ya go:

I flew from Reiokyu to Soul Society and look what happened

vsbattles.fandom.com

Soul King Palace to Soul Society

vsbattles.fandom.com

There’s another one from Apple (I couldn’t find it) but it’s the same as Damage’s if you replaced Ichigo’s travel speed with lightning instead of sound. The justification being Candice is stated to surpass natural lightning, and Ichigo is casually above Candice, making lightning speed a safe lowball in Apple’s eye. Which nets like ~1.45e7 km.

Should save the discussion for later, but was just dropping you the information cuz it seemed like you were curious.

 

[Eganergo]

Congrats on the 1k milestone!

 

[AppleLord]

I always wondered why Ichibei never used his power on the Reio? Ichibei probably didn't have his powers, but could the pieces of the Reio have resistance to Ichibei's powers?

The hollow Ikomikidomo got sealed millions of years ago and had its power stripped off by Ichibei, but after obtaining pieces of the Soul King, it sort of had the effects of Ichimonji scrapped off.

If that is true Aizen would never had gotten affected by Ichimonji if he had gone to the royal palace, as he possessed the Nail of the Reio inside the Hogyoku.

Isn't that a resistance feat for Reio as well?

 

[AppleLord]

@RanaProGamer if you’re curious what the contenders are for the Soul Palace distance/speed related calcs, here ya go:

I flew from Reiokyu to Soul Society and look what happened

vsbattles.fandom.com

Soul King Palace to Soul Society

vsbattles.fandom.com

There’s another one from Apple (I couldn’t find it) but it’s the same as Damage’s if you replaced Ichigo’s travel speed with lightning instead of sound. The justification being Candice is stated to surpass natural lightning, and Ichigo is casually above Candice, making lightning speed a safe lowball in Apple’s eye. Which nets like ~1.45e7 km.

Should save the discussion for later, but was just dropping you the information cuz it seemed like you were curious.

Here it is.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-distance-calculation-and-associated-calcs.108144/post-3352846

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Bleach: Aaroniero dodging sunlight

vsbattles.fandom.com

look towards t=3:05

https://***********.com/read-online/Bleach-chapter-266-page-17.html

https://***********.com/read-online/Bleach-chapter-266-page-18.html

Considering that we are discussing pre-timeskip speed feats here, I’d like to revisit the Aaroniero dodging sunlight.

Reiterating what US said, following the panel structure we see the hole form, Aaroniero look back, and then by the time the light hits he’s gone. Addressing where that initial light would have hit, we see that the hole begins as a T shape, and it’s blatant to see that the top of that T would be where Aaroniero and Rukia were standing. So yes the initial light was aimed at Aaroniero. The floor is also still jet black in the panel which Aaroniero actually dodges.

Addressing him hearing it first, the flow of the panel structure does not support this and to that point neither does the narrative. However, referencing the anime for this gray area, it also shows Aaroniero dodging after the hole is made.

That being said the anime shows him being hit by the actual sunlight before dodging. This directly contradicts the manga, in the manga we never see light hit Aaroniero, and when it does later in the fight his disguise is instantly dropped. What I’m getting at with the anime clip is just that it supports Aaroniero dodging after the hole is formed that’s all.

I wasn’t around when Aaroniero dodging sunlight was originally discussed so I’m unaware of any other counters, aside from he heard it. Regarding he heard it, light travels so fast that you’d have to assume the rocks fell slow enough that the sound reached Aaroniero before the light, which is highly improbable. To which Aaroniero was slow noticing what Rukia had done as well, he didn’t register what happened until he took a glance, so he wasn’t really using audio cues.

Edit: it would take sound ~0.05s to reach Aaroniero, meanwhile it would take the light ~0.00000005s to reach Aaroniero. In the time it takes sound to travel 1m light would have traveled 1000000m or in terms of the calc by the time light would reach Aaroniero (16.27m) sound would have traveled ~0.01627mm (not even a tenth of a millimeter). We see that when Aaroniero looks behind him a hole is there, so it would be quite literally impossible for him to hear it then dodge. Especially, considering we see the wall break before Aaroniero registers what's happening, Rukia breaks the wall -> Aaroniero is gloating -> lightbulb goes off in Aaroniero's head -> he looks behind him and sees what's happening -> Aaroniero dodges.

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0266-012.png

I really want to emphasize the flow of the panels here: hole in wall forms -> Aaroniero looks back -> Aaroniero dodges. It is NOT: Aaroniero hears the cracks -> Aaroniero dodges before the hole forms.

 

[Damage3245]

Aaroniero look back, and then by the time the light hits he’s gone. Addressing where that initial light would have hit, we see that the hole begins as a T shape, and it’s blatant to see that the top of that T would be where Aaroniero and Rukia were standing. So yes the initial light was aimed at Aaroniero. The floor is also still jet black in the panel which Aaroniero actually dodges.

> it would take sound ~0.05s to reach Aaroniero, meanwhile it would take the light ~0.00000005s to reach Aaroniero. In the time it takes sound to travel 1m light would have traveled 1000000m or in terms of the calc by the time light would reach Aaroniero (16.27m) sound would have traveled ~0.01627mm (not even a tenth of a millimeter). We see that when Aaroniero looks behind him a hole is there, so it would be quite literally impossible for him to hear it then dodge.

The original argument was never that sound travelled faster than the light. But that the sounds of the rocks falling alerted Aaroniero to the danger, and he moved out of the way before the rocks fell far enough to let in enough light to hit him.

We don't see where the shadow would have been from the falling rocks or if the light would have exactly been hitting Aaroniero at that moment.

Yes, he was close to Rukia, but we also have no idea how much light would have been hitting that area before Aaroniero moves. If he was just covered by the rock's shadows, then he wouldn't need to be moving fast enough to avoid the light itself, but just fast enough to outpace the falling rocks before they let in more light.

That being said the anime shows him being hit by the actual sunlight before dodging. This directly contradicts the manga, in the manga we never see light hit Aaroniero

I'm not so sure that we can say he definitely wasn't hit by the sunlight:

and when it does later in the fight his disguise is instantly dropped.

Well, that's not exactly true. It takes Aaroniero about three panels for his disguise to completely drop. And that was because he was held in place by Rukia's Kido and unable to escape.

Assuming he was hit by the light before, it could have only been for a split-second before Aaroniero moved out of the way and into the shadows, preventing his disguise from being undone.

Also, trying to pick and choose exactly what the anime adaptation is showing the very same scene... That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

If we go fully with what the anime shows, then it supports the point I made up above and makes the sequence of events this:

Rukia breaks the wall -> Aaroniero is hit by the light by the newly formed hole -> Aaroniero moves before his disguise is undone.

No dodging sunlight required in this scenario, and it isn't directly contradicted by the manga.


EDIT: The original calc is flawed in another way too though. It assumes Aaroniero went 1.7788 meters to the left - when we know that he travelled to the right instead (which just so happens to be a much, much shorter distance).

EDIT2: Just to note, the calc was also rejected by a second calc group member.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The original argument was never that sound travelled faster than the light. But that the sounds of the rocks falling alerted Aaroniero to the danger, and he moved out of the way before the rocks fell far enough to let in enough light to hit him.

The paneling begs to differ. We see a hole form at the top (which corresponds to the light cast at Rukia's feet aka where Aaroniero was standing). We are directly shown that Aaroniero moves after the rocks fall far enough to create a hole for light.

We don't see where the shadow would have been from the falling rocks or if the light would have exactly been hitting Aaroniero at that moment.

Yes, he was close to Rukia, but we also have no idea how much light would have been hitting that area before Aaroniero moves. If he was just covered by the rock's shadows, then he wouldn't need to be moving fast enough to avoid the light itself, but just fast enough to outpace the falling rocks before they let in more light.

We see a T shape be the intial shape of the hole, and if you trace that shape onto the final area of light at Rukia's feet, you'd find that it would have touched Aaroniero had he not dodged.

I'm not so sure that we can say he definitely wasn't hit by the sunlight:

We see his face is cloaked in shadow. When Aaroniero is hit by sunlight burns and peals start forming on his face, we get no indication that he healed any sunlight "injuries" post dodging.

Well, that's not exactly true. It takes Aaroniero about three panels for his disguise to completely drop. And that was because he was held in place by Rukia's Kido and unable to escape.

Assuming he was hit by the light before, it could have only been for a split-second before Aaroniero moved out of the way and into the shadows, preventing his disguise from being undone.

What I meant by this was not that the disguise switches to fishbowl head instantly, but as soon as the light hits him we see his skin bubble up and peal. Which we are given no indication of that the first time.

Also, trying to pick and choose exactly what the anime adaptation is showing the very same scene... That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

If we go fully with what the anime shows, then it supports the point I made up above and makes the sequence of events this:

Rukia breaks the wall -> Aaroniero is hit by the light by the newly formed hole -> Aaroniero moves before his disguise is undone.

No dodging sunlight required in this scenario, and it isn't directly contradicted by the manga.

In the anime scene when Aaroniero looks back his face is cloaked in sunlight, while in the manga his face is still covered by shadows. So, it is probably best that the anime be disregarded for the scene the more I think about it, and bringing up the anime was more so a blunder on my part. Since it clearly contradicts the manga.

 

[The_mysterious_man]

I always wondered why Ichibei never used his power on the Reio? Ichibei probably didn't have his powers, but could the pieces of the Reio have resistance to Ichibei's powers?

The hollow Ikomikidomo got sealed millions of years ago and had its power stripped off by Ichibei, but after obtaining pieces of the Soul King, it sort of had the effects of Ichimonji scrapped off.

If that is true Aizen would never had gotten affected by Ichimonji if he had gone to the royal palace, as he possessed the Nail of the Reio inside the Hogyoku.

Isn't that a resistance feat for Reio as well?

that true I agree with this soul king part should get resistance to ichibei power but you should put this in the other thread, not this one

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; his face isn't necessarily in shadows in that panel. It's just shading.

This page for example shows Aaroniero unshaded and shaded, but the light levels haven't changed over the course of this page.

As for "no sunlight injuries" in the first time around, that could simply be due to him not being in the light long enough to sustain any injuries.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; his face isn't necessarily in shadows in that panel. It's just shading.

This is disingenuous, the scene in question has a heavy focus on light. Due to the narrative of light being the key for Rukia to fight Aaroniero without the ghosts of her past. So Aaroniero being shaded here is pretty indicative of him not being hit by the light before he moves.

This page for example shows Aaroniero unshaded and shaded, but the light levels haven't changed over the course of this page.

The focus isn't on light in these scenes, if we want to get hyper critical here, every panel in which the characters are in a dark room should just be black. We can't read a story where every time the characters are in a dark setting we can't see anything.

As for "no sunlight injuries" in the first time around, that could simply be due to him not being in the light long enough to sustain any injuries.

He sustained injuries as soon as light hit him the second time.

Picture1234912832

vsbattles.fandom.com

Forgive the shitty quality. Rukia is in the red circle, and the blue circle is where Aaroniero would have been. It's clear to see that the initial hole had light aimed at Aaroniero. He dodged after he saw the hole, meaning he outran light. The image on top should be flipped but that doesn't change anything.

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; that's fair for your interpretation but I don't the shading by itself is proof of being in the shadows.

He sustained injuries as soon as light hit him the second time

Because he's held in place. We don't have an "instant the light hits him the disguise comes undone" image to reference because we see the disguise come undone over a sequence of multiple panels. For all we know it took a few seconds to go from "no damage whatsoever" to "disguise is melting away."

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; that's fair for your interpretation but I don't the shading by itself is proof of being in the shadows.

This is highly unfair, the mans face is shaded, yet you're interpreting it as his face is in the light. Since it is either in the light or it isn't, and I'm arguing it isn't because it's shaded.

Because he's held in place. We don't have an "instant the light hits him the disguise comes undone" image to reference because we see the disguise come undone over a sequence of multiple panels. For all we know it took a few seconds to go from "no damage whatsoever" to "disguise is melting away."

If we don't know how long it takes for light to disfigure him then you can't use the argument that light hit him and then he ran away and I can't say light didn't hit him because he didn't disfigure. So we have to find a different way of determining if light hit him. I suggest light didn't hit him because his face is shaded.

 

[AppleLord]

Can we bring it up Quincy Arrows been LS? We have 1 mention in the manga, 2 in the databooks and 1 in the light novels calling them "Arrows of Light" and "Rays of Light" There's also Uryu's feat blitzing the sun rays.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Can we bring it up Quincy Arrows been LS? We have 1 mention in the manga, 2 in the databooks and 1 in the light novels calling them "Arrows of Light" and "Rays of Light" There's also Uryu's feat blitzing the sun rays.

Ngl I think there's a greater chance at convincing the staff on Negacion being lightspeed than with Quincy arrows.