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The Big Bleach Speed CRT

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Removing max comments limit from threads was a mistake. (This is ironic for those that I know would answer with "We would have just made a follow-up thread")

I won't take sides, I am too ignorant on the subject, but I would bet my lungs that this debate won't be done with those currently partaking, and anyone willing to potentially participate would look at the 1100 comments and be discouraged.

IDK, I'd make a thread where everyone shows their arguments anew fully to let others understand, but I guess this can be just a test of endurance. Some arguments aren't made to be settled.
 
@Ricsi; there's no way we're starting this all over again.

Arc7 seems to have bowed out of the thread and we have a staff consensus for rejecting the Yoruichi calc.

We've moved onto new topics now.
 
I am fine with that, you don't need to reset everything. What is agreed on is agreed on, what isn't is not going to get checked on by all but the most passionate - who as far as I can see are already here and the stalemate isn't giving.

But again, do as you will.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Hasch; for all of the current Pre-Timeskip keys and profiles.
Click to expand...

They are all MHS since not captains can help against Sternritter while being weaker than SS arc captains.

Arc7Kuroi said:
I'm pretty sure it's stated that in between SS and Arrancar arc everyone trained their asses off, and I want to say we had some statements that in between the end of the war and the start of the Quincy Invasion people were training because they felt they weren't prepared enough for Aizen level threats. So I don't think we can backscale like that, except for a few exceptions (Yama is stagnant in his ways so he likely kept a constant power throughout the series, outside the fact that he lost an arm he may have weakened).
Click to expand...

That apply to weaklings like Byakuya and Toshiro.

Yamamoto, Unohana, the Vizards, Urahara, Shunsui, Ukitake, etc are all the same because we know they are already at their limit or did no training at all.

Any lieutenant aside from Renji is still weaker than SS arc captains too.
 
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Jvando said:
Perception and reactions are actually a bit different.

You can perceive something coming at you, But that doesn’t necessarily mean your body can move fast enough to react to it and vice versa actually. You might be able to react to something and not necessary be able to perceive it though that’s more rare to see in fiction (I’m thinking along the lines of ultra-instinct Goku and stuff)

Bottom line is that perception =/= reaction. Is Ishida may be able to perceive something that fast with his spiritual senses, but that doesn’t mean his body can react to something moving at that speed.
Click to expand...

I doubt you would be able to perceive something like how many RPM there's in a drill or chainsaw if you aren't close to that in reaction time.
 
Hasch said:
I doubt you would be able to perceive something like how many RPM there's in a drill or chainsaw if you aren't close to that in reaction time.
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He is just cherry picking, Ishida can count and see them moves without difficulty in fact he can pass to count an see 1.000.000 vibration cycle to 3.000.000 as you can count from 1 to 10, so assuming his body cant keep up at least in reaction with the casual speed of his brain is just another way to downplay a calc.

Like people legit recycled the "sensitive" argument from the comment because it was the first thing to use to dowplay it, when the speed of the brain is the same, the sensitivity is just about being able to see them, being "sensitive" doesnt increse your brain processing speed just for a particular thing, and then you became dumb for other thing.
 
@Tyri456; it's not recycled. I've just seen that comment myself.

Just means that somebody else had the same issues with it. And where is it stated that Ishida is actually seeing the cycles?
 
Because otherwise he would not be able to give specific number as 1.3 million to 3 million from seeing the vibrations.
 
"There's no indication that this feat has anything to do with his reaction time"

The feat itself is him seeing and proccessing and couting vibrations. So the feat itself is a speed feat since even time is given for vibrations, and that is undeniable.

"It's just his sensitivity to spiritual pressure. It doesn't mean he can react that quickly in combat"

The sensitivity is completely irrelevant, the sensitivity allow him to see something that normal being cannot see because he is a quincy, but the act of seeing and quantify the number of vibration is something he can do because his brain can keep up with those speed and can clearly see and quantify them, it is really simple. The sensitivity is completely unrelated to act of speeding up his brain speed.
 
@Tyri456; his brain speed being that high does not mean his reactions or combat speed would scale. As Jvando pointed out, there is a difference between percieving something and reacting to something:

Bottom line is that perception =/= reaction. Is Ishida may be able to perceive something that fast with his spiritual senses, but that doesn’t mean his body can react to something moving at that speed.
Click to expand...
 
Damage3245 said:
Hence why this statement is relevant.

There's no indication that this feat has anything to do with his reaction time. It's just his sensitivity to spiritual pressure. It doesn't mean he can react that quickly in combat.
Click to expand...
Repeating something already answered in post 1113 and 1114 isn't a rebuttal. Also Quincy are "sensitive to spiritual pressure" which is the physical form of Reyroku aka Spiritual Energy, hollow spiritual pressure is poison to Quincy. What Uryu is seeing and reacting to is spiritual matter aka Reishi. Not Spiritual Pressure aka Reaitsu.
 
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If he's able to perceive and literally count the cycles of something why isn't he able to react?

This just seems like reaching honestly.
 
Damage, why it seems to me you are grasping at straws?

Ishida isn't even trying, he is doing that casually, he can pass to count from 1.3 million to 3 million vibrations in one seconds as you can pass to count from 1 to 10, him not being able to reacting to casual speed of his visual speed is dumb and not even a IRL thing (this is a specific case that need to be implied or shown because it is a 100% speed feat).

Also there isnt a single istance were bleach charachters are able to perfectly see something moving and then get blitzed by that speed. The speed of reactions is by default somehow comparable to visual speed unless proven otherwise or implied (never happened in Bleach).
 
@Purgy; why would he be able to react? How many times in fiction do we come across the scenario of someone being able to percieve someone's movements (or predict someone's movements), but they're not able to deal with it because their reactions can't keep up with their senses. It happens all the time.

Perception has nothing to do with being able to move your body in time to react to it.

Also, it still hasn't been proven that he was able to actually see this instead of just sensing the spiritual pressure.
 
How he can say 1.3 million or 3 million so precisely without counting them, Damage, stop being like that.

We do not need everything explicity written word by word, otherwise I can invalidate every single calc on this wiki by assuming always something it is not written, there is even a close up to his eyes after saying 1.3 million he is obviously seeing them.
 
But to perceive something is already a reaction, or do you think that reacting to something involves just making a movement contrary to that thing?
 
Damage3245 said:
Also, it still hasn't been proven that he was able to actually see this instead of just sensing the spiritual pressure.
Click to expand...
Not a single time has "reishi" (spiritual matter) been sensed by someone in the verse. Reiatsu is the physical form of Reiryoku. (Spiritual energy, which is what the characters in the verse can sense)
 
So for the ishida calc, I think I disagree with the notion that Ishida can't react to the speed at which he perceives since while his physical body might be behind his mind clearly isn't. He managed to create a rough estimation of the speed of something he's sense for the first time. I think that's a pretty good feat for him, though defintely not a sigh feat more a feat steeped in his extrasensory perception. In fact, I always figured that was how we did reaction speed in the first place, comparable to your perception speed and possibly not your combat speed. And to ignore the speed at which at character can perceive on the profiles seems weird.

I do however think it possible that he could also just have been told the speed at which the arrow vibrates.

This is a quincy item and one that he seems to possess extensive knowledge over. So he doesn't necessarily have to be able to react to it to know its speed and while he does make a reference to the vibrations of the wings being slower than that of his blade it is also possible for him to just be applying the knowledge he has and comparing it to what he's perceiving.

So why not use that as the high-end for the calc? We're given three clear measures to compare, 1.1, 1.3, and 3 million RPS. Calculate all three and then have it decided from there which end to use.

Though I will also say that I have no honest idea to who this reaction/perception speed should scale to. This is something that Uryu can do due to his quincy nature and I don't think there are too many characters that can be compared to him in that regard for most of the series.

Also, what circumference formula is being used in that calculation, never seen it before?
 
@Duedate8898 that’s what I’ve been trying to argue. I don’t see anything wrong with using it as a perception calc but to try and then scale that to his combat/reaction is faulty.


I discussed this with DontTalk and he just pointed me to the Reactions Page, more specifically:
  1. Reaction speed has both a distance and a timeframe component, so all calculations that are completed for reaction speed cannot simply be a timeframe by itself. Do not randomly assume a 1 meter distance for each timeframe and use that speed for the reaction speed.
Click to expand...

In other words, being able to perceive something moving and creating a timeframe calc =/= being able to move your body in relation to it.

To put it another way, Ishida being able to sense the vibrations and whatnot doesn’t involve any kind of distance calculation in relation to his body movement. Also note that he isn’t “seeing” it but using his unique senses to more “feel” it happening. Not that that would change anything though.

You can calculate that feat and get reaction timeframe, aka perception, in seconds I.e. 0.0000003336s is Sub-relativistic perception.

To find reaction speed, you would need a distance component because as you know, speed = distance/time and as quoted above, you can’t arbitrarily assume some random distance.

In conclusion, the value of the calc gotten here is just a timeframe which cannot be used to scale reaction speed as noted in the reaction page guidelines. At best, you could argue for its use in Ishida’s perception.
 
Thank you Jvando, I think that is a good summary of the issue here. I wish I had just pointed out that section of the Speed page sooner.
 
Let's ignore that Reishi (spiritual matter) can’t be sensed, and the panel completely says that he is talking about the Hollow’s Reiatsu (spiritual pressure) which is poison to Quincy. That is the sensitivity. Reishi and Reiatsu are two completely different things.

Uryu was told? The only two people who could had told him are his grandfather who died when he was a child. Ryuken, his father didn't even wanted anything to do with Quincies until his son lost his powers. He came restored his powers and that was it. We saw Uryu’s training and Ryuken never told him or use that weapon.
 
What you said about speed page is right, but I was giving for sure, that you guys thought Ishida was seeing it and not just percieving it.
If Ishida was only sensing, it is just perception, and you are right, but I think that Ishida is seeing the vibration with his eyes hence a reaction feat, and I can prove that.

First of all, using this translations, it is said that Ishida is looking at it to say it's speed, and this should be just logical because:

Using the context of the fight, when she threw multiple feathers to him, Ishida looked at them in the wall and it is highlighted that they are vibrating (vreen), and while lookint at them he stated they are vibrating at high speed.
 
@Tyri456; the point is, even if we assume it is a visual perception feat as opposed to just him sensing it, it still wouldn't give us his reaction speed as the Speed page clarifies.
 
I think I have to talk with this guy, because the calc already assume distance/time because it is a vibrations aka a movement, that is why the result of the calc itself is terms of speed. I'm pretty sure him being able to see with his eyes that would scale to his reaction.
I will talk with him, and if he still tell me that it isn't valide I will drop it, because there is an huge difference between just perceiving and tell the speed by seeing.

By the way I took the raw, and the first kanji is 見た

The translation is saw/looking, if you do not believe me. So the translation i posted up above is fine.
 
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Two logical conclusions:

Uryu saw them
Click to expand...

Uryu sense them
Click to expand...

@Damage is assuming Uryu is sensing reishi which has never been shown to be sensed by anyone in the verse. He is also using Uryu saying he is sensing the spiritual pressure from Circucci as prove. Her reiatsu and reishi are too different things.

Damage you need to prove reishi can be sensed because we can't prove a negative. And as Tyri456 already prove Uryu is seeing the vibrations not sensing them.
 
Guys...the result is literally given in a timeframe. The “distance” in that calc has nothing to do with Ishida himself and is only there so calculate the speed at which the blade is vibrating.

The result is quite literally: 1.97929655e-7 seconds

In what universe is that a speed result?

Quite simply, arguing with Damage and I about it isn’t going to change the fact that you can’t use this result to scale to his combat speed in anyway regardless of whether Ishida was “seeing” or “sensing”. This is a reaction page guideline and not something up for debate in this thread.
 
Jvando said:
Guys...the result is literally given in a timeframe. The “distance” in that calc has nothing to do with Ishida himself and is only there so calculate the speed at which the blade is vibrating.

The result is quite literally: 1.97929655e-7 seconds

In what universe is that a speed result?

Quite simply, arguing with Damage and I about it isn’t going to change the fact that you can’t use this result to scale to his combat speed in anyway regardless of whether Ishida was “seeing” or “sensing”. This is a reaction page guideline and not something up for debate in this thread.
Click to expand...
Irrelevant to the topic at hand. Death battle Naruto vs Ichigo was BS? I thought Naruto won because he had faster "sensory" reaction skills compared to Ichigo's speed.
 
What? Death Battle doesn't matter here - and I think they have a quote of being at least 30% BS per match anyways.

Can you provide a distance that was moved with that timeframe? Else, its not "reaction speed". Some profiles do include thought speed, so I guess you can add that, but this doesn't scale to anything else.
 
So far no one has answered me about my questioning. Reaction speed is not just making a movement against the thing. If you do an action against a stimulus you are already reacting.
 
USklaverei said:
So far no one has answered me about my questioning. Reaction speed is not just making a movement against the thing. If you do an action against a stimulus you are already reacting.
Click to expand...
But speed is distance crossed/timeframe. If the "action" doesn't involve movement, then no, it does not count as reaction speed by our definition the same way "bloodlust" isn't mindless rage for characters.

If there is a distance moved... then that would be nice to bring up.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
But speed is distance crossed/timeframe. If the "action" doesn't involve movement, then no, it does not count as reaction speed by our definition the same way "bloodlust" isn't mindless rage for characters.

If there is a distance moved... then that would be nice to bring up.
Click to expand...
Uryu counted Cirucci blades while moving in combat, in-between a reasonable distance.
 
The value from the calc is 1.97929655e-7 seconds

This is not reaction speed

nothing will change that fact and if you have an issue with it, bring it up in a CRT for how we handle reaction speed feats. As of now, however, this discussion shouldn’t be happening. Move on.
 
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