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The Big Bleach Speed CRT

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Damage3245

Damage3245

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Okay, it's time to address the elephant in the room concerning Bleach ratings for speed.

Almost all of the Pre-Timeskip ratings for Bleach (and some of the Post-Timeskip ones too) can all be traced back at their source to this calc for Orihime's attack speed.

As the logic of the calc and scaling goes; Orihime's shields are created at a certain speed as part of her reacting to an explosion in close proximity. This is scaled to her attack speed, which is then scaled to fodder characters and by extension (and multiple multipliers) scaled to eventually cover almost every character in the verse.

This is where almost all of the Massively Hypersonic, Massively Hypersonic+, Sub-Relativistic, and Relativistic speed ratings come from.

I shouldn't need to point out that trying to scale a few dozen characters to a single calc is a bad idea, there is no real way of showing the consistency of all those ratings. Right now very few supporting feats exist.

The only other proper speed calc (that isn't for reactions alone) we have for Pre-Timeskip is a Mach 6613 (Massively Hypersonic+) calc for Ichigo.

Now - there are multiple flaws with the current calc that I believe makes it unworthy of being used as the basis for all these speed ratings:

1) The calc assumes Orihime's Satten Kenshun formed from the ground up, giving the 3.43 meter figure for how far shield pieces had to travel in the timeframe, which is not the case. Her shield pieces fly out from her head/hair piece. They don't go from the ground up.

2) The calc assumes the diameter of the explosion to be 1.5 meters without a reason.

3) The calc treats the entire mass of the exploding individual as being the charge weight of the explosion. I don't see why this is assumed when this could just be calced from the size of the explosion itself.

4) The calc assumes that Ishida was 15 centimeters away from the explosion before the shield started moving into place, but this is flawed because there is no reason to assume that the distance to the panel from Ishida is how far away the explosion is, and there is no way of proving or disproving that the shield already started moving into place at that time.

Other calc group members can take a look at the calc to see if they agree or disagree with me on these points, but I've spoken to other users and they agree that the calc is fairly dodgy.

As the basis for all of the character's profiles? I'd want something a bit more secure than that.

What should be done about all this? Well, I believe that some characters like masked Ichigo we can scale them to Massively Hypersonic+ using his currently accepted calc, and there are others who scale to him so they will have ratings. But a lot others in the verse, their speed ratings should be changed to Unknown until we have something better to scale them to.

EDIT: It is also worth pointing out that Gin's Mach 500 Bankai is treated as a big deal in the series. Ichigo's eyes even have trouble tracking it. And Gin claims that his Bankai is the fastest Zankaputo. There is no reason to think he is simply giving an empty boast here.
 
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Damage3245 said:
Now - there are multiple flaws with the current calc that I believe makes it unworthy of being used as the basis for all these speed ratings:

1) The calc assumes Orihime's Satten Kenshun formed from the ground up, giving the 3.43 meter figure for how far shield pieces had to travel in the timeframe, which is not the case. Her shield pieces fly out from her head/hair piece. They don't go from the ground up.

2) The calc assumes the diameter of the explosion to be 1.5 meters without a reason.

3) The calc treats the entire mass of the exploding individual as being the charge weight of the explosion. I don't see why this is assumed when this could just be calced from the size of the explosion itself.

4) The calc assumes that Ishida was 15 centimeters away from the explosion before the shield started moving into place, but this is flawed because there is no reason to assume that the distance to the panel from Ishida is how far away the explosion is, and there is no way of proving or disproving that the shield already started moving into place at that time.
Click to expand...
Damage makes really good points. I especially went over the 2nd and 3rd points he brought up because while points 1 & 4 have to do with some context, points 2 and 3 null the calc as a whole.

Forgetting the fact that 1.5 meters for the explosion diameter was randomly chosen, the calc assumes that the charge weight for the explosion was the weight of the average man which is 60kg. Now, ignoring how odd that is, even if you were to use that value, you could easily plug it into the formula:
  • D = 8.5 * W^0.341 (Where D=diameter of explosion in feet & W=charge weight in pounds)
you would get a value of ~44.96 feet or ~13.7 meters. Now plugging the value in meters into the calculator here and the 60kg, you would get a velocity much lower than what was used in the calc Damage referenced.

Now if you did the opposite and used the randomly chosen diameter of 1.5 meters of 4.92 feet and plugged it into the equation above, you would get a charge weight of 0.2 pounds or 0.091 kilograms. Plugging those into the calculator I linked, you would still get a low value. From the offset, this calc has a glaring numerical issue, not even factoring the contextual ones.

Just to fix the numerical aspects of the calc, you would have to pixel scale the explosion which can be done from what I saw but ignoring the results likely being unremarkable, there are still the contextual issues that would need to be addressed.
 
Damage3245 said:
Okay, it's time to address the elephant in the room concerning Bleach ratings for speed.

Almost all of the Pre-Timeskip ratings for Bleach (and some of the Post-Timeskip ones too) can all be traced back at their source to this calc for Orihime's attack speed.

EDIT: It is also worth pointing out that Gin's Mach 500 Bankai is treated as a big deal in the series. Ichigo's eyes even have trouble tracking it. And Gin claims that his Bankai is the fastest Zankaputo. There is no reason to think he is simply giving an empty boast here.
Click to expand...
and then we discovered that he was lying so we dont know how fast it really is
 
In bleach spiritual pressure also matters. If a person is releasing spiritual pressure then reactions, movement speed and such will dull. Like How Aizen to ichigo looked so fast that he wasn't able to react.
Same thing happened with Byakuya.
Same reason ichigo being not able to keep up was related to Gin's power not speed.

Gin was lying about his Bankai. Usually when there is even a small inconsistency we ignore it. Now there is a really big problem with Gin's Bankai speed since he was not telling the truth to begin with. It should be enough to prove that Mach 500 is a lie.
 
Damage's evaluation of the calc's flaws seems fine.

Damage3245 said:
EDIT: It is also worth pointing out that Gin's Mach 500 Bankai is treated as a big deal in the series. Ichigo's eyes even have trouble tracking it. And Gin claims that his Bankai is the fastest Zankaputo. There is no reason to think he is simply giving an empty boast here.
Click to expand...
Echoing what TOAA said, Gin was lying to Ichigo so mach 500 is by no means a valid number for Gin's Zanpakuto (regardless of if you think it's faster or slower). To my knowledge it's commonly known that Gin's "500x faster than sound" quote is not valid for scaling Bleach characters.
 
I think the diameter of the explosion can be easily scaled from human size Near it.

also, it can be easily find Ishida distance, since it is approximately near the dude in front of Orihime, and we can easily find the centre itself of the explosion form the first scan.

Regarding point 1, you solved the problem by yourself.

So yeah the calc has flaw atm, but I think can be fixed, the feat is valid.
 
latest
 
Looking through Damage's points

1. It's assumed Saten Kisshun formed from the ground up because when we see Orihime she's on the ground. However, if you want to say she shot them off before she was knocked to the ground then we could just use the distance from her height to the bottom corner of her hair fairies, 2.343 meters.

2. You can use the width of the hallway or size of the person to find the diameter of the explosion so as Tyri said easy fix. Just did some quick maths and pixel scaling and found the explosion diameter to be about 2.07 meters based on comparing Orihime's height which is known to the width of the hallway and the hallway width to the explosion.

3. Another solvable issue, let's just calc it from the explosion itself then. Albeit Mayuri turned the people into literal bombs so it's a fair assumption imo. I don't know how to find this :p

4. This is based on us seeing the explosion reflected brightly on Uryu's clothes, and the fact that Uryu was seemingly within hands grasp of the exploding person. Ang sizing the distance between Uryu and the explosion person, rather than the close up of his face we get that he was roughly .228 meters away instead of .156.

I found that applying the suggestions for 1, 2, and 4 (I don't know how to find 3 but I feel the assumption of 60kg was fair) yields 21.42km/s or Mach 62.449 (High Hypersonic+). The only thing that would change is charge weight based on a supposed better way to find it, albeit even if charge weight decreased to 6kg a tenth its assumed weight for the calc, it would just end up halving the value I found (Mach 62 -> Mach 31), so I doubt finding charge weight another way would drastically change the result.
 
CloudStrife00T said:
Gin was lying about his Bankai. Usually when there is even a small inconsistency we ignore it. Now there is a really big problem with Gin's Bankai speed since he was not telling the truth to begin with. It should be enough to prove that Mach 500 is a lie.
Click to expand...

Just to address this before we get into how to fix the calc, the Bleach Unmasked databook reiterates that Gin's Bankai did extend to 13 km and did have Mach 500 speed.

Gin tells Aizen that what he told him was a lie, not that what he told Ichigo was a lie.

And it would be weird for Gin to lie and claim that his sword was only Mach 500 if it was actually several times faster, so it has to be at least comparable to the figure he gave.
 
I don't have anything to say about the Calc, since I don't know anything about Calculations so consider me Neutral. However, I do have ideas to voice about the Gin statement you added.

What to say that the databook isn't just reiterating what Gin said? I feel we never consider this possibility that most databooks just take numbers and statements from the series and throw them in a book without looking at how legitimate they are, and then we point to the databook as a "proof" or a "second source", when it reality is a mirror of the first.

I think the number of sources is nearly irrelevant, but the consistency of the logic, stats, and scaling is far more important.

Like, why would he tell Ichigo the truth and lie to everyone else in general? Especially since Aizen was right there, if the measurement was different than what he told others, including Aizen, then that would bring Gin's motives as to why he said what he said up into question, giving Aizen even the smallest of reasons to possibly doubt Gin's loyalty even for a second, which would be especially stupid since he was just about to finally betray Aizen after so many years of getting on his good side.

That just doesn't make sense. The simplest answer is that the length and speed that he told Ichigo, he told everyone else, and he was full of shit on his Zanpakuto's capabilities.

Also, don't we consider calcs greater than statements anyway?



P.S.: You guys need to announce Bleach CRTs in the Discussion Thread because I love Bleach and would like to give my thoughts, but have missed like 6 CRTs because I didn't know they existed.
 
How does one find the charge weight of an explosion from the explosion? This way I can update my last post that takes all the concerns of the original post and rectifies them, because unlike the creator of the post I am interested in rectifying the issues rather than just leaving them unsolved.

Also Damage, you argued that the databooks reiterating what a character says does not prove their validity, as you said the databook stating Yammy > Ulquiorra was just restating what Yammy said thus bringing its validity into question. So to then argue that in Gin's case the databook means it must be around mach 500 displays a lack of consistency within your arguments. If you're going to argue the databook statement means that Gin's bankai is really just mach 500 then you must concede that Yammy is in fact the strongest Espada.
 
@Arc7Kuroi; everybody else was arguing in favor of the databook being an omniscient source of knowledge, so I was just pointing it out.

If we don't use it, we don't use it, but we need to at least acknowledge it in some form, even if it is just to reject it.

EDIT: I'm remaking a version of the calc right now and will post it soon for evaluations.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Arc7Kuroi; everybody else was arguing in favor of the databook being an omniscient source of knowledge, so I was just pointing it out.

If we don't use it, we don't use it, but we need to at least acknowledge it in some form, even if it is just to reject it.
Click to expand...
No no no buddy, we were arguing that due to the consistency of the databook statement, it is a valid piece of supporting evidence in the case of Yammy.

In Gin's case he flat out says he's lying, Gin confirms his Bankai does not move at mach 500, so that means regardless of the databook statement it does not move at mach 500.

You on the other hand argue that a databook reiterating a character statement =/= the databook statement being valid. By your argument, the Gin databook statement and Yammy databook statement don't mean anything because they repeat what we are already told.

Also, I'd reckon that the databook image you sent is quoting Gin rather than stating it from a narrator's perspective.

Edit: Thank you for remaking the calc.
 
The fact that Gin lied to Ichigo purposely was solely on trying to catch Aizen... which Aizen DID not know that his bankai is not some just speedster extension but rather a poisonous one. which literally the 500 statement more irrelevant even if the guidebook which is the 2ndary source says it is.
 
Gin lied to Aizen, we don't know if what he told Ichigo was also a lie. The fact that the databook confirms what Gin told Ichigo point in the direction of it being the true stats of KnY.

Tho I don't see why this would even matter that much, it's not like it creates a wall for speed scaling. A good number of characters should scale above it, especially when you consider that the Ichigo who dodged it wasn't even at full capacity because of the mental block he put on himself after coming back from VL (Zangetsu even mentions that Ichigo can't even properly use his Hollow Mask because he's afraid of it, basically going back to his mentality before Hueco Muncho arc).

Gin claiming that KnY is the fastest Zanpakuto is fine, I guess. There aren't many Zanpakuto's that move, with the only ones I can name on top of my head are Senbozakura and Rangiku's Zanpakuto (which is like the smoke version of Senbonzakura). The statement could also be only valid for SS arc, as there's no way for Gin to know how fast the previously mentioned Zanpakutos are at the time of FKT, especially for Byakuya's case. So at worst SS arc Byakuya's Senbonzakura is slower than mach 500/1000. Cool, it's not like Bankai Ichigo made a complete mockery of it lol.

Now talking about Orihime's calc, I'm waiting for Damage to recalc it. On the scaling bit, I don't see why it's wrong for so many characters to scale to it when we explicitly see fodders (that 5th Seat dude) who are easily able to react to Orihime's fairies, and then you got Uryu who goes FTY to Orihime, so based on the latter you at least got Liuentenant lvl characters scaling to it.
 
Ovy7 said:
Gin lied to Aizen, we don't know if what he told Ichigo was also a lie. The fact that the databook confirms what Gin told Ichigo point in the direction of it being the true stats of KnY.
Click to expand...
Gin only mentions it's speed and distance once in the series, he than later says "it doesn't extend as far or fast as I said it does" implying that the only time he said it he was lying.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Back in my day people used the "Gin lied" explanation to say that he was actually slower than Mach 500.

Then people pushed back against it to say that Mach 500 was actually legit...

And not some people are back to using "Gin lied!" to argue that his Bankai is actually faster than Mach 500.

I actually think the irony is delicious.
Click to expand...
I don't recall anyone in this chat commenting on a value for Gin's actual speed, just that Mach 500 is a lie. There is no irony these are your words not mine or anyone else here's.

In reality Gin scales around post resurrection Bankai Ichigo, possibly Hollow Mask Ichigo, so his speed lays around that area, if it's faster than Mach 500 then oh wow big whoop Gin's faster, if it's slower than Mach 500 then oh wow big whoop Gin's slower, hell if it's exactly Mach 500 then oh wow big whoop Gin's that speed.
 
Well, we still need to decide on ratings and update the profiles before this CRT can be closed.

It also still needs to be evaluated.

EDIT: Calc has been evaluated and accepted. I'm putting together a list of profiles to be changed now.
 
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People use the word, "He lied" very loosely. That implies you guys are giving accusations that he's deliberately trying to deceive people. I don't think Mach 500 is something he would fabricate if he knows it's different rather saying people "Miscalculated" is a better accusation.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
People use the word, "He lied" very loosely. That implies you guys are giving accusations that he's deliberately trying to deceive people. I don't think Mach 500 is something he would fabricate if he knows it's different rather saying people "Miscalculated" is a better accusation.
Click to expand...
He literaly later said "I lie about the speed and length"

Using gin statement is dishonest as he himself said he lied about the speed
 
Lie fits better here, it's Gin we're talking about, he literally refers to himself as a snake that shouldn't be trusted, lying is just part of his nature and most of the time there's no reason to it.

Also, Gin's entire character was basically about deceiving people.
 
I mean, I feel like people are ignoring the context, Gin is lying about his Bankai's speed, but context wise, it seems like it's slower than Mach 500, Ichigo seemed pretty surprised about Gin's Bankai being Mach 500, so that means Mach 500 is really fast to Ichigo

So what's the counter against that?
 
Yes, it is very strange, because Ichigo had difficulties to react to Mach 500, however, when Gin doubled the speed with Butorenjin, Ichigo reacted without much problems.
 
USklaverei said:
Yes, it is very strange, because Ichigo had difficulties to react to Mach 500, however, when Gin doubled the speed with Butorenjin, Ichigo reacted without much problems.
Click to expand...
Ichigo had to equip his mask in order to avoid it, suggesting that double-speed is a lot faster than what his Bankai self can keep up with.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
I mean, I feel like people are ignoring the context, Gin is lying about his Bankai's speed, but context wise, it seems like it's slower than Mach 500, Ichigo seemed pretty surprised about Gin's Bankai being Mach 500, so that means Mach 500 is really fast to Ichigo

So what's the counter against that?
Click to expand...
Numerous other feats showing otherwise for one.

Also, to a person who doesn't know the numerics of how fast he is capable of moving, Mach 500 would seem really fast.
 
Nothing should scale to Gin's Mach 500 statement.

Gin's Bankai speed is in the same realm of speed as Hollow Mask Ichigo, so wherever that Ichigo's speed is should be where Gin's speed is at.

Warren offered a very good explanation.
 
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