The Archie Sonic profile pages

[Antvasima]

Sorry about being a bother, but the Archie Sonic profile pages are currently quite inconsistent, with Master Mogul placed at 2-C, and the other top tier characters within the franchise placed at 2-A or low 1-C. Given that the others were originally power scaled from Mogul the current rankings do not make much sense taken as a whole.

Basically there are two schools of interpretation about Mogul. He was only explicitly shown destroying single universal spacetime continuums, one at a time, but on the other hand the versions of Tails from different timelines were apparently stated to come from different multiverses. The question is, are "multi-verse" zones to be interpreted as "zones within a multiverse" or as entire multiverses?

So, do you think that we should keep Mogul at 2-C, and rank the other Archie Sonic top tiers as 2-B (given that the 2-B ranking goes so ridiculously many times higher than 2-C), or upgrade Mogul to 2-A again?

Here are the scans that I have been shown regarding the issue:

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, there is the issue whether or not Chaos Knuckles should be interpreted as a six-dimensional entity?

 

[Proje]

I vote hard delete.

 

[Antvasima]

Then somebody would just recreate them later, with a lesser quality. Placing them as "unknown" ratings for the uncertain statistics is an idea though.

 

[Darkness552]

Well considering these things are inconsistent among themsleves as what RadRed13 said does have credibility and Mogul does destroy a universe in the scan you posted above

and there was the scan that is on the bottom which RadRed brought up before which i don't believed he mention that the zone cops zone possibly has an extra spatial dimension which i will look into and Mogul was going to destroy this zone

but mainly i believe Chaos Knuckles should have an extra category saying inside the chaos force as an unknown tier

but as for Mogul like i said above Rad Red had credibility with the evidence he provided but throughout the comic series they have mentioned zones as universes or some type of higher plane

 

[Sheoth]

Honestly, they're not specific enough when they simply say "higher dimensional." Couldn't that merely mean higher as in 4-dimensional? Putting some of the top tiers at unknown would maybe be a good idea.

 

[Darkness552]

beyond space and time would be beyond 4 dimensional i believe

also the chaos force is beyond the multiverse

 

[Sheoth]

Ah, sorry. I'm not as knowledgeable about dimensions as some others on this site.

 

[Darkness552]

its alright

 

[A6colute]

In addition, there is the issue whether or not Chaos Knuckles should be interpreted as a six-dimensional entity?

Beyond time and space? No, it's not enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for replying A6colute.

 

[Kavpeny]

I have always perceived the Archie pages as convoluted, and quite often suspicious. In this case, I would also suggest a hard delete. It would be better to rework those profiles from scratch.

However, I would strongly recommend waiting for Rocks75 and Unclechairman before taking any actions. Given their solid knowledge of Sonic, I believe we should await their opinions on the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, what is wrong with simply writing their statistics as "Unknown" in the uncertain cases, and then locking the pages?

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, othervise the next time somebody recreates them, they are likely to be even worse. With this method we at least keep some control for the future.

 

[Antvasima]

We could add an explanatory footnote in the main Sonic page for the uncertain ratings as well.

 

[A6colute]

We can use special panels - "This article is stub".

For example.

We must create special template for it.

 

[Kavpeny]

@Antvasima: There are too many variables regarding which statistics are confirmed and which ones are fake.

Unless you plan on listing absolutely all statistics as unknown, and merely keep the pages as templates (for now)? That could also work, I suppose.

EDIT: I reiterate, I think we should wait for Rocks75 and Unclechairman to give their opinions.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, regular Sonic has a valid multi-solar system level feat I think, and Mogul has at the very least proven capable of destroying universes with ease, but we could perhaps place the other statistics as unknown. In any case, I agree about waiting for considerably more input.

 

[Antvasima]

A stub template is not a bad idea, but as you said, somebody would have to create a reasonably good looking one.

 

[A6colute]

somebody would have to create a reasonably good looking one.

I can make template with text. But I need some picture for it.

 

[A6colute]

You also can change this template.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you create a highlighted separate forum thread in which you ask for suggestions for appropriate pictures, so we do not diverge further from the topic? Thank you.

 

[Handsome_Protagonist]

The only thing Mogul did was destroy alternate universe versions of Mobius planets. He is not even star level, heck, Enerjaks biggest hype was blowing up Mobius and he's supposed to be stronger than Mogul.

 

[Darkness552]

@Handsome Protagonist

where did you get that assumption from

Enerjak wasn't going to destroy Mobius he wanted to take over it and start it anew and that is not a good way of judging their power

 

[Handsome_Protagonist]

Because it means something, Archie Sonics series has never really hyped up anything multiversal apart from catastrophies that have nothing to do with any of the characters powers.

They constantly hype planet busting like it's a threat.

Mogul planet busted and Sonic was like "oh crap, looks like too much even for us"

 

[Darkness552]

well obviously they hyped up Mogul when he was destroying universes as i still don't know why you think he planet busted

and base Sonic has a feat way above planet level

 

[DontTalk]

I can only judge by the scans, since I don´t know the series at all, but here is my opinion.

Regarding Mogul: I would place him at 2-C. Except the question, wether or not "multi-verse" zones are zones within a multiverse or entire multiverses, there is also the question how "muti-verse" is defined in the comic. I believe in general the term multiverse can be used for any gathering of two or more universes, so destroying a multiverse could also be just 2-C.

Regarding Chaos Knuckles: He sounds 5-Dimensional to me. One could think that the "Moments later on a higher plane of reality" means a higher plane in relation to "A realm outside time-space", but the structure of it doesn´t make that clear.

 

[Unclechairman]

As I said in one comment, I'm not very knowledgeable about Archie Sonic at all, with my knowledge of the series being limited to Worlds Collide (the Sonic/Mega Man crossover event), and Pirate Plunder Panic (Sonic Universe 55-58), which I watched on YouTube.

That said, regarding Enerjak and Mogul, from what I've read on the Archie Sonic wiki, Enerjak is the single most powerful user of the Chaos Force. When he first appeared, he was so strong that the Ancient Walkers, higher-dimensional Chaos Force users who are merged with the Force itself, were unable to truly defeat him and resorted to sealing him within the Force by scattering his essence within it. Mogul would later go on to mortally wound these higher-dimensional beings using the last of his power shortly after escaping the Master Emerald.

As for Chaos Knuckles, he is second only to Enerjak in his proficiency in the use of Chaos powers. As for whether or not he is higher-dimensional, from what I've heard, "4-Dimensional" refers to the universe and multiverse including the dimensions of space and time. If he transcends space-time, wouldn't that make him 5-dimensional? 5-dimensional beings are rated as high 2-A, are they not?

And as for whether Mogul destroyed universes or multiverses, I'll echo that "multiverse zones" could just be used to refer to zones within the multiverse. However, wasn't it stated that each of those different versions of Tails in the room came from different multiverses rather than universes? If so, it would seem to imply in hindsight that the "multiverse zones" being spoken of are actual multiverses. If that's the case, Mogul should be at least 2-B, the way I see it.

One thing, about Sonic himself, in Worlds Collide, he was using Chaos Control as Super Sonic to change his world back to normal after Eggman and Wily altered it with the Genesis Wave. Eggman then attacked him, interrupting him and causing his world to be irrepairably altered. Eventually, the entire multiverse collapsed. As Super Sonic was using his powers to change and repair the entire multiverse, and only failed because Eggman intervened, would that qualify him for Tier 2-A? Although, this did happen in Worlds Collide, which was intended as a retcon of the previous continuity, so I'm not sure if it's valid.

 

[Undylan]

If we go with the universe destroying thing, Titian Tails remade millions of them in a second which can make him 2-B.

Super Sonic being at 2-A makes sense with Chaos Knux being at 1-C as well.

 

[Rocks75]

Well, I'm in the same situation like Unclechairman, I'm not very knowledgeable about Archie Sonic.

What I remember is that Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles destroyed dimensions when Sonic was still Classic Sonic.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. This is a bit of a dilemma.

 

[SpiralMaster]

Higher plane of existance could mean 5-D, which is still below 1-C. Plus there were stated to be millions of universes in total. So 2-C to 2-B for high ends at most.

 

[Antvasima]

An additional complication that I forgot to mention is that the general rule of fiction is that parallel versions of the same character only occur within parallel timelines within a single multiverse. Thus it doesn't really make sense for the versions of Tails to truly have come from different multiverses. In addition, as seen above, when Titan Tails defeats Mogul only a single multiverse is mentioned, which seems to contradict this.

 

[Kavpeny]

I perhaps shouldn't butt in (since I have limited knowledge of the topic at hand), but from what I can see, nobody is sure about the exact ratings/stats, apart from a limited number of feats. Add to that, there are some contradictions/confusions.

In that case, I think we should either wipe the current stats and lock the pages with Unknown listings and a stub marking (soft reset). Or delete the pages altogether (hard reset).

 

[Antvasima]

Well, hard reset would likely give us more problems in the long run, but I am not averse to keeping the regular statistics and maybe placing "Unknown" tiers for the super forms and most powerful characters. Possobly with parentheses with explanations and links to the above pictures.

 

[Kavpeny]

Soft reset it is, then. I'm fine with that too.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would like to get more input before doing so. We will also probably need to lock the pages afterwards. Maybe a single explanation at the main Sonic verse page would be sufficient?

 

[Kavpeny]

Well, a single note will (obviously) take less time, but it would take forever to clarify to everybody. Every Tom, Dick and Harry who goes through a Sonic profile will ask at least once the reason for the page lock and unknown listing. Better to add a note at the bottom of every page and save the long-term comment questions. It wouldn't be that difficult, since you would have to copy/paste the same note over and over.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That makes sense.

 

[Unclechairman]

Higher plane of existance could mean 5-D, which is still below 1-C. Plus there were stated to be millions of universes in total. So 2-C to 2-B for high ends at most.

RadRed brought up that Ian Flynn's statement that the Prime Zone is necessary for the creation of new zones implies that new zones are constanty being created. Thus, hypothetically, the Archie Sonic multiverse could have many more universes or zones than what we know about.

Also, have we decided whether or not exceeding space-time qualifies for being 5-dimensional? Since this guy is rated as high 2-A specifically because he is 5-dimensional, shouldn't Chaos Knuckles and the like also be rated as high 2-A if they are 5-dimensional

Also, I'm very opposed to deleting the Archie Sonic pages or just slapping an "Unknown" rating on them. It seems like a massive cop-out.