DivineAura44
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A
Is it really an opening? Vegeta might be able to attack during that state.
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The Androids Came Early?! (Delta VS Vegeta)
- Thread starter ZoroNotZolo
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While his body grows and deforms? We've never seen anyone who's transforming into an Oozaru state attack during transformation. I highly doubt this would be the case here.
DivineAura44
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Well I mean no one tried to attack them. What are they supposed to attack?
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Literally anything. Eyes, tail, hands, feet, literally anything. Also, if they COULD attack mid transformation THEY WOULD. 99% of the time the opponent is acting standing there shocked going "HUH? WUAHGHAUHGH? UGHH!! HUHAHH???"
MinatoSparkle
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Vegeta tried attacking Gohan
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Even if she did it doesn’t matter
He turned into the ape state at the blink of an eye he just didnt grow his hair yet and he moved his head while he transformed there’s no reason to assume he can’t move because he hasn’t grown his hair considering he’s already the size of his Oozaru in a blink of an eye
DivineAura44
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I guess you misunderstood, I'm asking what the Apes where supposed to try to attack.
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He can move =/= he fully transformed. We've never, EVER, seen them attack anyone in Oozaru while not fully transformed.
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He was already in oozaru and he was moving around you can see his hands by his waist and him in a position that looks like hes charging up and then moving a hand up he can move he has his body fully developed too just not bits of his hair
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vegeta does have conscious and mastery over the oozaru form , gohan or even kid goku doesn't.
The Oozaru form just passively happens when saiyans with tails look at the moon.
Also Vegeta has the clear range advantage too as well as higher attack speed (10 times) with his transformation boost so he can launch more attacks.
The Oozaru form just passively happens when saiyans with tails look at the moon.
Also Vegeta has the clear range advantage too as well as higher attack speed (10 times) with his transformation boost so he can launch more attacks.
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Vegeta is lucky Delta doesn't have more range. Anyway, don't assume the scouter automatically detects her full power, as she rarely ever uses that much of her energy. In fact, she starts off using only the power of her body, not the chakra. And even if the chakra portion was detected, that's much less than the ninja tool part, which can't be. Nonetheless, she surpasses Vegeta without using her Chakra, as Delta could impale KSPSM Naruto > SPSM Naruto > KSM Naruto > KM Naruto > SM Naruto > Base Naruto = Fused Momoshiki > 2x Kinshiki > Kaguya > Juubidara > Hagoromo > Vegeta.
The moment Vegeta starts losing, he uses Galick Gun, which is Ki, the same as Chakra, which she can absorb and redirect. When that fails, he goes Oozaru, which will be in an injured state, and vulnerable to getting erased by lasers.
The moment Vegeta starts losing, he uses Galick Gun, which is Ki, the same as Chakra, which she can absorb and redirect. When that fails, he goes Oozaru, which will be in an injured state, and vulnerable to getting erased by lasers.
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Yes but the moon is already out here dued to sba. Vegeta does not need to manually trigger the transformation via power ball.
How big are delta's destructive beam AoE specifically.
Vegeta has 10 times more attack speed (transformed) with an AP advantage so he can just counter those attacks easily.
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How does that affect my argument in any way?
Both beams are about the size of a human, probably a bit larger. Plus they're duraneg, so Vegeta would have two giant holes in his organs. And unlike Delta, he doesn't have regen.
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He can just look up and transform. Saiyan Warriors often utilise the moon anyways plus its readily available to him.
Large Size means it won't cover much of vegeta's transformed body dued to lack of AoE unless it hits his vitals like the head.
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Vegeta would not open with that, he never has.
Or heart. Or lungs. Or any essential organ.
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yeah but the example you gave was only analogous to goku. He could have just fought until he used the power ball because he wanted to prove he was superior to a "Lower Class Saiyan" like goku hence making it analogous only to that situation.
SBA has vegeta starting at night in a full moon so he can just utilise it like other saiyans have.
Also we only seen vegeta (with tail) use the power ball vs goku because thats the only time he had a reason to use it.
Vegeta could counter those because he somehow knew kienzan was lethal to nappa + large size means it might just hit non lethal parts of his body. Vegeta has taken brutal beatings before as well.
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Speed is equalized, also I'm 99% sure Oozaru boosting speed isn't accepted.
NLF. There's nothing saying that he would be able to detect Delta's beams.
I highly doubt Vegeta would be able to fight properly with multiple holes across his body. Any damage Vegeta can do to Delta she can just regenerate away. And again, she has self destruction and 3 spare bodies.
Him moving around while transforming doesn't mean he can attack during that period, even if he could, he was never shown to do so, so it would be out of character for him to do. Also, until the transformation is completely done, we can't assume that his power rose for that specific multiplier.
Again, to reiterate,
Even if Vegeta were to go Oozaru, he wouldn't have that big of an AP advantage, it would be lower than 2x.
Delta can absorb any Ki based attacks he uses, can constantly shoot duraneg beams that would have a much easier time hitting Vegeta because he's giant.
She can regenerate any damage Vegeta does nearly instantly
Even if he does somehow damage her body beyond repair, she can just self destruct and cause a giant explosion
And even if he isn't dead then she can just come back 3 times because she has 3 EXTRA BODIES.
Again, no matter what Vegeta does, Delta just has a far better skill set.
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Sorry for double posting but;
Why would he assume she is strong? And not just random vermin? I really don't see why he'd immediately start by going Oozaru.
She would quite literally not read anything to him. Yes, she has Chakra, but all of her powers come from her scientific ninja tools.
His scouter wouldn't read anything noteworthy.
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Attack speed is fine. Its just that the slower character arent allowed to blitz but vegeta still should have that advantage.
That isnt how nlf works , vegeta being able to tell the kienzan being lethal to Nappa indicates he would have the senses to be wary of those beams.
Vegeta has sponged attacks before , he can just defend against those attacks with ki attacks of his own. He also has Ki barriers to block those attacks
That is because the transformation is immediate with little time inbetween completion. No one launched an attack during that time and vegeta is fully conscious during the transformaton.
Vegeta still has the Ap advantage , RPL and techniques such as galick gun to severely damage her alongside his attacks being much faster.
Dirty FireWorks = blowing her up from the inside with an explosion.
Kienzan = Bisecting her + works on those with several times more durability.
She can't regenerate from losing her head can she?
Thats fine but I am only arguing this case because of SBA allowing the moon. Saiyans have transform'ed and eradicated lifeforms during full moons so I see no reason why vegeta would be any different since its nighttime anyways. He just has to look up at the moon to transform which is simple anyways.I say this because saiyan saga vegeta is different from his current iteration because of different character and motives and arguably less pride.
Keep in mind I am saying this case is different from utilising the power ball since this would be a saiyan thing to do anyways.
Also funny thing about the scouter , vegeta and nappa do not utilise it after they learned the earthlings can hide their powers levels and nappa specifically agreed to vegeta and said "Yeah you are right , that weakling raditz lowered his guard and got killed because of this things". So yeah , more reasons for vegeta to transform.
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That ability isn't listed on his profile, ergo cannot be used. We don't know how it works either way, nor if he would be able to tell her beams are dangerous.
These beams destroy things on a cellular level, Vegeta has never shown anything remotely close to tanking that.
Also, you're comparing Delta's strongest attack to a regular ******* Ki Blast. Could Vegeta deflect a Kamehameha with a Ki Blast?
But it isn't immediate, we literally see them take TIME TO TRANSFORM.
One that is less than 2 times, and is completely irrelevant.
What part of "She can absorb energy based attacks and re-fire them" did you miss?
Delta can see invisible attacks, she'd be able to see what he's doing when he starts pointing his finger at her.
She can absorb energy based attacks. It is literally useless.
And how would he know anything about her?
He already knew that these humans beat Raditz.
He knows nothing about Delta.
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He has enhanced senses ? Vegeta has canonically understood a ki attack such as kienzan was lethal to nappa somehow in the saiyan saga.
Vegeta once transformed can easily block it with ki blast or barriers dued to an AP advantage. Plus association fallacy you cannot just say one is the other. Delta's attacks and feats are her own thing.
forgot to fix the quote but I will just repeat it takes very little to no time to transform. You keep trying to make it seem like a very long time which isnt the case in the slightest. Vegeta transformation leaves very little openings.
An advantage which helps vegeta which you keep disregarding
Yes but vegeta's attack are alot faster as an Oozaru.
And how will that stop Dirty Fireworks from blowing her up ? Vegeta's enhanced senses can let him know about her satellite and destroy it easily as well. Also Afaik he just has to point to blow delta up.
I am saying it can work because Transformed attacks are much much faster and would bisect if it hits. She has to activate her absorption yes ?
He doesnt need to , saiyan just transform at night on a full moon because of how they are trained. This circumstance is difference fom daytime.
It would especially if Oozaru Vegeta does the attack
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Enhanced senses =/= being able to detect if an attack is dangerous or not.
A basically non existent advantage, do you not understand how advantages work?
IT TAKES HIM SEVERAL PAGES TO TRANSFORM. Show me when, show me one instance of him instantly turning into an Oozaru. Because right now you're being completely disingenuous, "well he gr-" no, that doesn't matter, in the slightest, BECAUSE HE WASN'T FULLY TRANSFORMED.
Yes because it's literally unimportant how small it is.
Naruto couldn't sense the satellite, what makes you think Vegeta can?
Because she can absorb attacks coming towards her. Unless you're implying Dirty Fireworks has infinite speed?
What part of "Speed equalized" don't you understand?
Do you have any proof for this?
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Voting for Delta for now. Looking at the AP values, Delta scales to 312,8 ZT while Vegeta is only 59,44. Delta is over 5 times stronger than Vegeta, Delta here is about as powerful as Kaioken x16 Goku, he is not surviving this fight in base lmao.
In Oozaru, Vegeta is 90% stronger than Delta. So if he manages to punch Delta hard enough he'll win. However, Delta can reflect Ki attacks, so he's screwed if he tried firing an Oozaru Galick Gun unless he keep feeding energy to it like Naruto did with his Rasengan. Delta is also obviously much smaller than Oozaru Vegeta, she'll be able to dodge his attacks. And as per site rules, since Delta is the faster character here, if Oozaru Vegeta wins by having a speed amp from Oozaru this match won't be counted to the profiles.
Dirty Fireworks is a non-factor, Vegeta only uses it against opponents that are weaker than him (the Saibamen and Cui) Frieza's version of Dirty Fireworks is also only used on weaker opponents (Krillin). The moment Delta lands her first punch Vegeta will painfully learn that she's much stronger than him. He may not even get the chance to transform due to getting pummeled by Delta. Delta is 5.26x stronger than Vegeta, while it takes only 7.5x AP advantage to one shot someone.
In Oozaru, Vegeta is 90% stronger than Delta. So if he manages to punch Delta hard enough he'll win. However, Delta can reflect Ki attacks, so he's screwed if he tried firing an Oozaru Galick Gun unless he keep feeding energy to it like Naruto did with his Rasengan. Delta is also obviously much smaller than Oozaru Vegeta, she'll be able to dodge his attacks. And as per site rules, since Delta is the faster character here, if Oozaru Vegeta wins by having a speed amp from Oozaru this match won't be counted to the profiles.
Dirty Fireworks is a non-factor, Vegeta only uses it against opponents that are weaker than him (the Saibamen and Cui) Frieza's version of Dirty Fireworks is also only used on weaker opponents (Krillin). The moment Delta lands her first punch Vegeta will painfully learn that she's much stronger than him. He may not even get the chance to transform due to getting pummeled by Delta. Delta is 5.26x stronger than Vegeta, while it takes only 7.5x AP advantage to one shot someone.
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regardless he does have a feat of detecting dangerous attack.
Yes which I is why I have brought it up. Ap Advantages are still advantages regardless
The pages do not indicate that much time passing. I have repeated that it vegeta can transform in very little time.
It still works in his favor considering how much more viable his arsenal becomes
Vegeta natural senses ? he has great eyesight and battle intelligence so he can just snipe it once he notices it.
Speed amping still works. They are equalised to base speed.
Does the wiki accept Dirty Fireworks as a projectile ? if not I can still argue his attack speed is faster which is listed on his profile.
Also I never mentioned infinite speed , that exaggeration was not warranted.
Because saiyans tend to transform at full moons and attack planets at full moon ? In the Dragon Ball Super Manga that is how they attacked Planet Cereal.
Also wouldnt delta moving at relative speeds to vegeta tip him off despite the poor scouter reading ? my point is it will certainly make him more wary of her.
Vegeta can just cycle to dirty fireworks especially if he notices the ki absoption and also given that this is the saga where he used it plus Oozaru transformation helping.
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yea voting delta aswell fra
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Never said he could attack but Vegeta is literally transformed into the ape by the time goku opens his eye and he moves around even if you argue he couldn’t attack for some reason he would still be able to dodge and he grows his hair fully after Goku says no way
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And there's nothing saying he would be able to detect the danger of this attack.
Miniscule ones. You keep mentioning it as if it's a wincon, when it's very much not.
It takes him multiple pages to attack, Delta would most certainly attack him during the time he takes to transform, during which she would absolutely attack him. Unless you're saying that his Oozaru transformation is somehow faster than Naruto's Chakra Cloak transformation which is instant?
And that would immediately null the match, because speeds are equalized.
If Vegeta won because of an Oozaru speed amp (which is not listed on his profile as anything other than "higher") it'd immediately null the match because of speed equalization.
Does the wiki accept Dirty Fireworks as an instantaneous attack?
I highly, highly doubt that Vegeta has better senses than Naruto. Who could sense shit across the planet. But couldn't sense her satellite nor notice it.
By the time he'd notice her literally flinging herself at him I highly doubt he'd have enough time to fully transform before she blows his head off with a laser.
Except that Vegeta never used Dirty Fireworks on anyone on his level, but always used it on people who are massively weaker than him.
He isn't transformed into one, he is transforming into one.
There's nothing saying he can dodge during that period of time.
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Its a feat that shows he can. You have to provide evidence that counters my claim which you havent.
You keep undermining this point , this adds up to his wincon as a contribution.
I have elaborated that the transformation isnt that long
afaik the rules are the slower character cannot speedblitz
??? when have I mentioned it is an instantaneous attack ? you are taking words out of my mouth
Ok ? Vegeta can just spot it you know espcially if its just nearby the battlefield. Also planetary AoE attacks could indirectly destroy it.
she doesnt start with destructive laser does she ?
Oozaru transformation plus he can just cycle to it once he noticed his ki attacks being absorbed. Why wouldnt he anyways ?
this isnt my argument but I still want to tackle it. Vegeta is fully conscious during his transformation which passively happens after he looked at the moon.
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Your evidence is "he sensed this one attack is dangerous this one time, therefore he can sense that any attack is dangerous" which is just. No??? That's not how that works.
It adds up sure, but it's not a win-con by itself.
Except it is long. Delta attacked people with FAR, FAAAAAAAAR faster transformations before and landed her hits.
Then what is it? What speed does it scale to?
If a character who is slower wins because of a speed amp while speed is equalized, the match becomes invalid
Yes, Vegeta can spot a satellite that not even Naruto, who has far better sight and sensing than Vegeta by a million times, truly.
She does. The reason she didn't against Naruto is because she knew that he was playing with her and that made her salty.
Why didn't he use it against Goku? Or Frieza? VEGETA HAS NEVER BEEN SHOWN USING THE ATTACK ON CHARACTERS WHO ARE EQUAL OR STRONGER THAN HIM.
It doesn't matter if he's conscious, he has never been shown to be able to attack or dodge during that state. There is absolutely zero reason to assume that he can attack someone while his entire body is morphing.
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This still counts as a feat and an instance of evidence.
Good that we are atleast on the same page
The point is it isnt that long.
He seems to just point and they explode. I am asking if its accepted as a projectile or not.
saying it helps
also it could just be pis on naruto end for not noticing it unless the satellite has some special properties to negate natural based enhanced senses. Also Plantary AoE attacks could destroy it indirectly considering vegeta is very trigger happy in this key.
Dodging still works plus is her destructive beam attack chakra based ? asking because the scouter could detect the Ap difference if that is the case (yes I did mention they do not really rely on it but the sudden reading could alert vegeta)
Oozaru vegeta is technically stronger then her and he can just you know cycle to it. This is the saga where he used it so he would be more inclined to do so plus against goku it was more about proving himself superior to a lower class saiyan . Frieza has great durability and immortality anyways.
Vegeta is one of the few with mastery over oozaru transformation. He simply didnt have a reason to against goku and this is the only instance besides gt where he transformed
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Sure it's a feat, but we are given basically nothing to assume it's an actual ability instead of just something that happened per chance.
Except it is more than long enough for her to attack Vegeta and get a hit in.
I don't think it's ever been discussed, I'm not sure what vsbw uses to scale DBZ
It doesn't have chakra, and is very far away from the battlefield.
Also, who says that Vegeta would be able to hit those attacks to blow up the planet anyway?
We don't know what the lasers function off of. It's probably tech
Except he never, ever used it against anyone equal to him and always used it against opponents massively weaker than himself. Why didn't he use it against Gohan? Why didn't he use it against literally any opponent that was remotely close to him in terms of power levels. And wouldn't crippling Frieza still be useful? Either way, this attack wouldn't do much to her anyway. Her insides are literally the same durability as herself. It'd just be like another Ki Blast in terms of damage.
Cool, he has mastery over being transformed in it. But nothing says that he can attack while his entire body is morphing
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Its still counts as something he posesses which can help in this battle
I mean he can hit the drone because he is more trigger happy in this key and his attacks have planetary aoe
ok
He could very well have intended to toy and torture the Z fighters. Frieza also was way stronger anyways + he was more arrogant upon getting a zenkai boost that made him think he is a "super saiyan".
As an Oozaru it could still damage her inside. Her body is tech based right ? is her brain as durable too ? is her entire body as durable ?
He just needs to (insert tfs reference) DOOOODGE !
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Except we don't know if it can be applied to this. Kienzan was Ki based, her lasers are god knows what based. We don't know how that works and it cannot be used.
Her drone has the absorption eye thing on it. What would that even do? Also, again, it's not given that he'd be able to spot the drone.
And he wouldn't be arrogant now the same way he was against the Z fighters?
She doesn't have a brain. Her body is tech based, yes. And yes, her entire body is as durable. It's literally entirely made of technology. She has multiple bodies literally lying around that can be activated whenever.
Except he can't DOOOOODGE while transforming
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He did transform into one he only doesn’t have his hair and he literally moved during that time so why wouldn’t he be able to dodge during that time?
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Moving your arms and head around a bit =/= being able to dodge and attack.
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Moving your arms and head around means you can move and like I said many times he literally has everything but his hair at that point in time and fully grows his hair when Goku says no way
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It doesn't matter if even one detail is lacking, the transformation isn't complete. If the transformation was complete by that point, why would he need to transform further? It takes him 16 panels to stop screaming. I highly doubt he completely transformed if he has to continue screaming like he's constipated.
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Okay so at the speed Goku opens his eye he’s lacking only the hair growth Gohan and Krillin are trying to fly to the area and Goku says no way Vegeta makes weird sound effects and transforms this transformation is not very long he’s already mostly done at the blink of an eye and finishes after Goku’s 2 word dialogue this transformation process is not very long and not enough to affect the fight
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He has never done this.
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