TF2 Downgrades Part 3

[Abstractions]

i was refering to other and was debating several times creating equal AP in several verses

TF2 is not those verses and if its done through magic it's magical AP, not physical, lots of reality warpers can have higher AP than their physicals.

You still need to prove he did make them though.

 

[Livinmeme]

i was refering to other and was debating several times creating equal AP in several verses

TF2 is not those verses and if its done through magic it's magical AP, not physical, lots of reality warpers can have higher AP than their physicals.
You still need to prove he did make them though.

ok giveme proves than magic not scale to AP even in the site is considered most of the time

MAGIC=AP

 

[Wokistan]

Doesn't mean it scales to physicals though

 

[Livinmeme]

Doesn't mean it scales to physicals though

yes normally scale

 

[Livinmeme]

creation=AP even is magic still scale

 

[Wokistan]

Uh, no? it doesn't normally scale? You'd need proof of that.

 

[Livinmeme]

Uh, no? it doesn't normally scale? You'd need proof of that.

oof pit icarus devil may cry are examples

 

[Wokistan]

Why are you bringing up other verses? Just because some verses work like that doesn't mean they all do.

 

[Livinmeme]

it works unless the verse says otherwise

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The difference is that a lot of those verses not only have powerful magic, but also consistent showings of characters having combat applicable spells. And those same characters taking those spells and trading blows physically.

Merasus has never really shown creation magic to be combat applicable and not like poofing buildings into existence is calcable. Plus, he's a literal boss that's overwhelmingly stronger than the mercs and also no physical feats that impressive. Also, Weekly and the others already debunked all the mentions of other stuff that aren't given examples or calculated justifications.

 

[Genericstickman]

What tier would it be to atomise RPG rockets?

 

[Livinmeme]

The difference is that a lot of those verses not only have powerful magic, but also consistent showings of characters having combat applicable spells. And those same characters taking those spells and trading blows physically.
Merasus has never really shown creation magic to be combat applicable and not like poofing buildings into existence is calcable. Plus, he's a literal boss that's overwhelmingly stronger than the mercs and also no physical feats that impressive. Also, Weekly and the others already debunked all the mentions of other stuff that aren't given examples or calculated justifications.

idk number one merassmus has some pretty god feats of magic and the other thing merasmus being far stronger than the mercenary literally ruins the points of the character

 

[Schwxnz]

I was just wondering if it would be alright to calc the penetration power of TF2's bullets and scale Saxton and the Yeti to whatever result that would get- as it's implied that the Yeti is bulletproof and Saxton beat it after a defty struggle.

The Yeti being undamaged by the shotgun may even be supported by Jungle Inferno- in which Soldier fires at it, yet it does nothing; however I don't think that it's entirely clear if it tanked or evaded the blast.

Okay, after rewatching the clip, I believe that the Yeti indeed no-selled the blast: It walked straight towards Soldier, he fired at it, it didn't react whatsoever and proceeded to stomp him.

 

[Schwxnz]

@Livinmeme

I am sorry, but how does that ruin the point of the characters? That makes no sense whatsoever. And the intent of the characters isn't that important when there are several things contradicting it- otherwise Batman would only be 9-C.

 

[Genericstickman]

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Generic It wouldnt be above 9-A

 

[Livinmeme]

that has not sense the feats of merasmus being stronger literallly ruins the point plus they are far more feats than contradice that

 

[Schwxnz]

I don't want to repeat myself again. This part should just be dropped- as already said, the point of the character (which you haven't elaborated on) hardly matters when there are several things contradicting it.

 

[Livinmeme]

I don't want to repeat myself again. This part should just be dropped- as already said, the point of the character (which you haven't elaborated on) hardly matters when there are several things contradicting it.

there are more things that favour the scale of merasmus than contras of the scale of merasmus

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Either actually post legitimate calcs for the stuff, or permanently drop it. Constantly spamming, "It's 9-A or Tier 8 because I said so" is not getting anywhere at all.

 

[Schwxnz]

I think it was DMUA who said something about the robots getting vaporized seeming like a awkward game mechanic. Much like how shotguns vaporized enemies in other FPS's which made no sense.

After looking at the comments from the calc again, I found out that Wokistan and DMUA were referring to the Tank Explosion feat as shown here. So, 8-C vaporizing weapons should still be legit.

Speaking of, this is going to be my last proposal regarding Saxton. While he generally shouldn't scale to said weapons via that statement as Abstractions already debunked, it makes virtually no sense that Saxton would sell weapons that are far, far stronger than him to people who he only considers to be "subnormal men"- he's a macho; not completely stupid. And he has two rather competent assistants backing him up. Would "9-A, possibly 8-C" or something along these lines work for him?

Oh and also, according to Narbunds calc above Saxton fell from the sky at 463.75 m/s or 488.84 m/s, both of which would be Supersonic. During his fall he was still able to react to and grab an eagle, does this count as a reactions/combat speed feat? If so, we have a neat supporting feat for him.

I updated Sniper's range with his Sniper Rifle now, as that has been accepted here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They both said the explosion can't be used. And vaporizing robots is still something done via heat and not force; we use this calculator for calculating durability against attacks like that. It vaporizes Steel, which would be a 20 degrees to 2900 degrees Celsius. And the Emissivity of human flesh is 0.8 so using that combined with the temperature of 2880 K being the change in temperature. The durability would just be 9-B using various surface areas.

 

[Schwxnz]

I didn't try to say that the explosion calc is valid- you have said that the Robot Vaporization feat is a game mechanic and that DMUA said so, however he wasn't referring to that feat.

The vaporizing weapons are still 8-C though, right? I mean that it doesn't make any sense for Saxton to sell weapons far more powerful than himself, which is why I believe that possibly 8-C may work for him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It doesn't have to me "Less powerful" than him to be considered not a threat. I character could be Low 7-B despite technically existing 7-B Nukes and for those same 7-B nukes to not be much of a threat to him given that Inverse Square Law exists.

 

[Schwxnz]

Yes, but Saxton should be aware of the power behind the weapons he's selling to others--he called Force of Nature's garbage after "robbing" Ms. Pauling.

How does the ISL come into play here?

 

[Abstractions]

The vaporizing weapons are still 8-C though, right? I mean that it doesn't make any sense for Saxton to sell weapons far more powerful than himself, which is why I believe that possibly 8-C may work for him.

This mindset is weird, it's like trying to justify all of Doomguy's weapons being Low 7-B just because it doesn't make sense that his fists are stronger than the BFG. We don't scale things that way.

It's too bad that the Force of Nature's power isn't near Saxton's level given that its a 9-B weapon, or the fact that the person that made the statement regarding the Yeti's strength was uneducated towards Saxton's experimental weapons.

There's no reason to scale Saxton to vaporizing weapons.

 

[Schwxnz]

I believe that this isn't quite the same, but I don't know that much about Doom. In Saxton's case, he never got attacked by any vaporizing weapons as far as we know, but it just doesn't make any sense for him to be dramatically weaker than something he sells to people he doesn't even respect one bit… Again, his assistants are rather competent.

I haven't been referring to the statement at all. I even said that you debunked Saxton scaling to said weapons due to the uneducated statement.

Well, I don't agree with that, but I suppose I'll just accept defeat now- there's no point in filling up this thread as well. Speaking of which, the changes should be made now.

While this doesn't change their tier at all, I believe that it should be mentioned on Pyro's page that they are implied to be more powerful than the other mercs- the Scout, Heavy and Spy admitted that they are terrified of Pyro in Meet the Pyro and it's more or less implied that Pyro defeated Heavy in the comics-- both Pyro and Heavy wanted new weapons from the Administrator, she stated that she'd love the idea of both of them killing each other- and the comic ends right after that. The community voted for whom they wanted to get the new weapons afterwards as far as I know, and Pyro won- getting some new weapons whilst Heavy only got that one banana.

Lore-wise, that points towards Pyro beating Heavy- even if that doesn't count, there are still the statements from Scout, Heavy and Spy.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Vaporizing weapons don't generate force, unlike Saxton. Where as Saxton doesn't really generate as much heat as the vaporizing weapons. If we used the inverse square law of the Yeti, perhaps the result could yield low level 9-A results, but the same calculator still suggests you only need to be Tier 9 for a character of human flesh to be immune to that same heat weapon. It's kind of like how gas explosions often yield High 8-C to 8-B results of chemical energy, but the actual energy required to tank it is only 9-B.

also, it's similar to how glass can withstand more heat than solid steel despite the former being easily shattered by a 9-C punch.

 

[Livinmeme]

Vaporizing weapons don't generate force, unlike Saxton. Where as Saxton doesn't really generate as much heat as the vaporizing weapons. If we used the inverse square law of the Yeti, perhaps the result could yield low level 9-A results, but the same calculator still suggests you only need to be Tier 9 for a character of human flesh to be immune to that same heat weapon. It's kind of like how gas explosions often yield High 8-C to 8-B results of chemical energy, but the actual energy required to tank it is only 9-B.

you know that are weapons fisical who can vaporazotion

 

[Abstractions]

but it just doesn't make any sense for him to be dramatically weaker than something he sells to people he doesn't even respect one bit… Again, his assistants are rather competent.

I will link you to every weapons dealer in history and they will tell you otherwise, and I'm not sure why his assistants matter, as they contribute nothing to Saxton's scaling.

While this doesn't change their tier at all, I believe that it should be mentioned on Pyro's page that they are implied to be more powerful than the other mercs- the Scout, Heavy and Spy admitted that they are terrified of Pyro in Meet the Pyro and it's more or less implied that Pyro defeated Heavy in the comics--

I think this is misunderstanding the context behind the scenario, Spy being scared of Pyro can be attributed to the Pyro is his counter, and the fact that Pyro's sadistic actions are marked with a colorful and cheery facade (See Meet the Pyro). Him being scared has nothing to do with skill but character.

 

[Schwxnz]

I will link you to every weapons dealer in history and they will tell you otherwise.

That's a great point, actually.

I'm not sure why his assistants matter, as they contribute nothing to Saxton's scaling.

They are aware of Saxton's strenght and they are also aware of the fact that if someone manages to kill Saxton, Mann Co is done for. However, now I realize that said point isn't that good- I don't think they'd be able to keep him from doing what he wants; I can even imagine him selling more of these weapons to assert dominance over them.

I think this is misunderstanding the context behind the scenario, Spy being scared of Pyro can be attributed to the Pyro is his counter, and the fact that Pyro's sadistic actions are marked with a colorful and cheery facade (See Meet the Pyro).

That is also a good point, and might be true however there are still Scout and Heavy's statements to consider. Scout wants everyone to think that he's the best- he doesn't want to seem weak in any way; normally he'd never tell anyone that he is terrified of anything. Heavy... well as he put it, he isn't afraid of any man- but that thing scares him.

As a side note, do you think that Saxton reacting to and grabbing an eagle whilst falling from a plane at Supersonic speeds counts as a reactions/combat speed feat?

 

[DeadRatt]

I agree with the statement above. It should also be considered that the Pyro is pretty much a psychopath. I think it's safe to say most of the Mercs (with the possible exception of The Egnineer, who is comfortable enough to read Pyro a Story... odly.) are scared of the Pyro.

For Sax catching a bird. I don't think so. I'm not to expirenced with Combat statistics, but I doubt catching a bird out of a falling plane can be considered a speed feat. Feel free to debunk me.

it's more or less implied that Pyro defeated Heavy in the comics-- Wouldn't the same apply to heavy if he won Meat your Match?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Where does the bird falling at Supersonic speeds come from? Also, that seems to violate how terminal velocity works.

 

[Schwxnz]

Narbund2 determined that the plane that Saxton got kicked off from Charles Darling was likely cruising at altitudes between 36.000 and 40.000 feet here.

Plugging in said values in this calculator you get either 463.75 m/s or 488.84 m/s which converted into mach speeds would either be Mach 1.35204082 or Mach 1.4251895; both of which are Supersonic, but it that directly disregards terminal velocity, then nevermind.

But if it could still count, whilst falling down Saxton spotted an eagle and grabbed it to glide safely to the ground- which didn't quite work.

 

[Schwxnz]

However, Saxton should likely get Enhanced Smelling as demonstrated here.

Also, he kicked a chair across a room and seconds later knew about Jarate, which is treated as a Martial Art in TF2; does that count as a form of Accelerated Development?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Splat calculator doesn't take Terminal velocity into account which can be calculated using this calculator. Enhanced smelling seems reasonable.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Also, he kicked a chair across a room and seconds later knew about Jarate, which is treated as a Martial Art in TF2; does that count as a form of Accelerated Development?

"You call throwing jars of piss at people a marial art?"

"Hey, as long as it works."

 

[Schwxnz]

I might have found a low-end 9-A explosion, although the calc will still have to be evaluated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I commented on it.

 

[Schwxnz]

I replied to your comment.