Tensura Web Novel Revision : Abstract Existence Type 1 For Rimuru

[wwereymy235]

I agree for AE.

 

[donegbe]

@donegbe
Do you agree or disagree with the OP?

I agree

 

[donegbe]

Also, before I get “hate” from the supporters or such. This is outstanding to discourse since if you are abstract existence type 1, you also need to state which abstract you are. Statement 1 (born as conceptual existence) is contradicted by the energy statement. Is he now a concept or energy? And if it is energy, is it abstract? Because of our last thread, it has been stated, it is void/nothingness.

Turn null is negative energy in the verse, the opposite of everything and should not be mixed with other energies.

The soul is mentioned as energy that surrounds the core, so yes it is abstract

 

[Sisyphusx]

@Dread what's your stance now?


Also seems like most of the members agree with this, now we just need some staff input

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

agreed

 

[ImmortalDread]

Energy made up concepts, and shown to be independent from information. Skills, Core/Nucleus Heart, and Soul are also made up from energy


Nihility Collapse is different than any other energy

I am sorry, but I don't see anywhere it says Energy is a made-up concept.

Turn null is negative energy in the verse, the opposite of everything and should not be mixed with other energies.

The soul is mentioned as energy that surrounds the core, so yes it is abstract

May I see the proof?

 

[Catpija]

I am sorry, but I don't see anywhere it says Energy is a made-up concept.

Great Spirits being concepts and masses of energy

 

[ImmortalDread]

Great Spirits being concepts and masses of energy

No, it is stated they are masses of energy, masses of energy = concept =/= energy

 

[InfiniteDay]

In incorporeality the entity just lacks a physical form and exists as a soul, energy etc.

Yes, which is what is being described in the scans mentioned.

Things supporting these definition are already in the OP, and energy makes up the concepts in tensura as the great spirits (type 1 concept) were also born as just masses of energy

And this should give them AE type 1 +

Your leaving out the major factor listed in AA. It's not enough to just be incorporeal, but you actually have to be abstract and have reliable statements or feats that the character has immortality or regeneration stemming from being that concept. In this case, your just incorporeal, as there is no evidence provided that your an abstraction nor do they gain anything from existing as an abstraction.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I just need “energy = abstract" evidence. That's it. The soul is already a lump of information that is abstract in verse. It is fine.

 

[Peak]

Is it possible for a mass of energy not to be an abstraction even embodying a concept?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Is it possible for a mass of energy not to be an abstraction even embodying a concept?

This will result in AE type 2.

 

[Peak]

This will result in AE type 2.

this makes no sense, the concept itself is a mass of energy, it is not a mass of energy that is linked to another concept, if a concept is described as being a mass of energy, then that energy theoretically should also be conceptual, at least I think so

 

[ImmortalDread]

this makes no sense, the concept itself is a mass of energy, it is not a mass of energy that is linked to another concept, if a concept is described as being a mass of energy, then that energy theoretically should also be conceptual, at least I think so

Nope. You are misunderstanding something, the mass of energy is not energy itself.
Also embodying abstract is the textbook definition of AE type 2.

 

[Peak]

Nope. You are misunderstanding something, the mass of energy is not energy itself.
Also embodying abstract is the textbook definition of AE type 2.

This is not abstract existence type 2, in fact I'm going to change what I mean

the great spirits are concepts and are an energy, so I ask again, is it possible to be a concept and not be abstract? This is not type 2 abstract existence because the great spirits are not dependent on other concepts, they are the concept itself, if concepts are abstract by nature, then great spirits would be abstract existence type 1 even if they are energy, that's what I meant, now if even though they are conceptual they are not considered abstract because they have energy, then they shouldn't even exist abstract type 2

but honestly, for me if a concept is formed by a concept then it is proof that the energy that shapes them are abstract too, that's my opinion, if energy is not abstract then abstract existence type 2 must be removed from all profiles, as they have this because they are dependent on the great spirits

 

[Zencha9]

no reason to assume energy always means physical energy when the show established that there's other types of non-physical energy (turn null)

 

[Peak]

no reason to assume energy always means physical energy when the show established that there's other types of non-physical energy (turn null)

Yes, energy composes non-physical things too, so I wouldn't see it as illogical to have abstract energy, especially since energy composes a concept

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is not abstract existence type 2, in fact I'm going to change what I mean

the great spirits are concepts and are an energy, so I ask again, is it possible to be a concept and not be abstract? This is not type 2 abstract existence because the great spirits are not dependent on other concepts, they are the concept itself, if concepts are abstract by nature, then great spirits would be abstract existence type 1 even if they are energy, that's what I meant, now if even though they are conceptual they are not considered abstract because they have energy, then they shouldn't even exist abstract type 2

That is my point. I have no clue how it is even abstract type 2 at all.

but honestly, for me if a concept is formed by a concept then it is proof that the energy that shapes them are abstract too, that's my opinion, if energy is not abstract then abstract existence type 2 must be removed from all profiles, as they have this because they are dependent on the great spirits

Hence, I asked if energy is indeed a concept, and yet no one brought the evidence.
Your question was if it is AE 1 to embody a mass of energy as abstract, and I said it is not. It is AE type 2 (look at the difference).

 

[Peak]

Hence, I asked if energy is indeed a concept, and yet no one brought the evidence.

the evidence is in the OP

"At the same time when Spirit of Time was born, the egg hatched, and the seed budded. The two were born as a conceptual existence with a pure energy body without a physical body. That was the origin of Angels and Demons. The mysterious thing was that the Angels and Demons that were born at the same time were on bad terms."

the great spirits are also formed by energy despite being concepts, energy is not an abstraction normally, but if verse specified that energy composes concepts, then that energy should also be abstract

Your question was if it is AE 1 to embody a mass of energy as abstract, and I said it is not. It is AE type 2 (look at the difference).

yes i understood that and so i changed my question, if energy is part of a conceptual existence (again, it is not another existence that is conceptual, but the concept itself is formed by energy), doesn't that prove that energy is abstract? It is not type 2 because the great spirits are not dependent on a concept but are the concept itself

 

[Zencha9]

anyways i agree

 

[Peak]

Gonna have to disagree for now. The evidence presented seems to only be incorporeality, and not full on abstract existence.

That is my point. I have no clue how it is even abstract type 2 at all.

Hence, I asked if energy is indeed a concept, and yet no one brought the evidence.
Your question was if it is AE 1 to embody a mass of energy as abstract, and I said it is not. It is AE type 2 (look at the difference).

the evidence is in the OP

the great spirits are also formed by energy despite being concepts, energy is not an abstraction normally, but if verse specified that energy composes concepts, then that energy should also be abstract

yes i understood that and so i changed my question, if energy is part of a conceptual existence (again, it is not another existence that is conceptual, but the concept itself is formed by energy), doesn't that prove that energy is abstract? It is not type 2 because the great spirits are not dependent on a concept but are the concept itself

What is your opinion on this? Only the two of you disagree for now and as it has been shown that concepts are energy so maybe you may have changed your mind

 

[Sisyphusx]

Yes, which is what is being described in the scans mentioned.

Your leaving out the major factor listed in AA. It's not enough to just be incorporeal, but you actually have to be abstract and have reliable statements or feats that the character has immortality or regeneration stemming from being that concept. In this case, your just incorporeal, as there is no evidence provided that your an abstraction nor do they gain anything from existing as an abstraction.

Uh? This is already in the OP but i'll mention it again
"The two were born as a conceptual existence with a pure energy body without a physical body"
"Demons are an existence like spirits or angels. It seemed to be an existence that received power from the spirit of Darkness, and specialized in the demonic attribute.
Similarly, the Angel specialized in the holy attribute of the spirit of Light, the exception to this seemed to be called a spirit."
the first para shows that they are AE and not just incorporeal it also says "Demons are an existence like spirits or angels" (the "pure energy" here is also abstract in nature)

for your other argument which says that demons and angles don't gain any ability (or immo/regen) from their respective concepts, it's stated in the 2nd para of OP itself that "received power from the spirit of Darkness, and specialized in the demonic attribute" "The Angel specialized in the holy attribute of the spirit of Light"
it clearly states that they recieve powers from their concept, are same existences as spirits and also mentions the word attribute that is "a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something."

 

[Bahaha]

Honestly there are more non-physical energy in Tensura than physical.
1. Negative energy - it is not physical but is the power in which the progress of the universe and time itself are retuned to beginning. (Is able to end the concept of time in a universe)
2. Positive energy - the opposite of negative energy in which the progress of the universe and time is increased
3. Primordial energy/Turn Null - energy that does not exist but can create concepts and Worlds
4. Power of the soul/Will power - energy that comes from the nucleus and surrounds the soul. possibly fuels Primitive Magic
5. energy that controls causality(?) - the energy that Dagruel talked about when battling Shion in Time stop when all physical energies were frozen.

power of the soul/will power, and primordial energy is honestly all you need to know energies in Tensura can abstract

 

[ImmortalDread]

the evidence is in the OP

the great spirits are also formed by energy despite being concepts, energy is not an abstraction normally, but if verse specified that energy composes concepts, then that energy should also be abstract

yes i understood that and so i changed my question, if energy is part of a conceptual existence (again, it is not another existence that is conceptual, but the concept itself is formed by energy), doesn't that prove that energy is abstract? It is not type 2 because the great spirits are not dependent on a concept but are the concept itself

I will stay neutral then. But as I see it, energy is indeed composing concepts that are abstract. But also, despite the fact that great spirits are formed by energy, demons are formed by the mass of energy.

 

[InfiniteDay]

What is your opinion on this? Only the two of you disagree for now and as it has been shown that concepts are energy so maybe you may have changed your mind

I still disagree, the only statement of being a "conceptual existence" is immediately contradicted by every other scan which calls them masses of energy or souls.

 

[Sisyphusx]

I still disagree, the only statement of being a "conceptual existence" is immediately contradicted by every other scan which calls them masses of energy or souls.

That doesn't contradict anything, and it has already been discussed in this thread

Energy made up concepts, and shown to be independent from information. Skills, Core/Nucleus Heart, and Soul are also made up from energy

no reason to assume energy always means physical energy when the show established that there's other types of non-physical energy (turn null)

the evidence is in the OP

the great spirits are also formed by energy despite being concepts, energy is not an abstraction normally, but if verse specified that energy composes concepts, then that energy should also be abstract

yes i understood that and so i changed my question, if energy is part of a conceptual existence (again, it is not another existence that is conceptual, but the concept itself is formed by energy), doesn't that prove that energy is abstract? It is not type 2 because the great spirits are not dependent on a concept but are the concept itself

Honestly there are more non-physical energy in Tensura than physical.
1. Negative energy - it is not physical but is the power in which the progress of the universe and time itself are retuned to beginning. (Is able to end the concept of time in a universe)
2. Positive energy - the opposite of negative energy in which the progress of the universe and time is increased
3. Primordial energy/Turn Null - energy that does not exist but can create concepts and Worlds
4. Power of the soul/Will power - energy that comes from the nucleus and surrounds the soul. possibly fuels Primitive Magic
5. energy that controls causality(?) - the energy that Dagruel talked about when battling Shion in Time stop when all physical energies were frozen.

power of the soul/will power, and primordial energy is honestly all you need to know energies in Tensura can abstract

 

[Peak]

I will stay neutral then. But as I see it, energy is indeed composing concepts that are abstract. But also, despite the fact that great spirits are formed by energy, demons are formed by the mass of energy.

hmm I see, do you think limited abstract existence would solve this problem?

 

[Bahaha]

this is the information particle issue all over again

 

[Peak]

I still disagree, the only statement of being a "conceptual existence" is immediately contradicted by every other scan which calls them masses of energy or souls.

mass just means quantity, not that it is physical, if Fuse stated that concepts are made of energy, then this energy is also conceptual, and as bahaha said, there are several energy

but that's ok, we can wait for the moderators opinion

 

[ImmortalDread]

hmm I see, do you think limited abstract existence would solve this problem?

I would give it possibly in my all honesty. The conceptual existence statement is still there, and it has been stated multiple times (ones, to spirits and one to demons).

 

[Peak]

I would give it possibly in my all honesty. The conceptual existence statement is still there, and it has been stated multiple times (ones, to spirits and one to demons).

I was actually corrected that only demons and angels are conceptual, spiritual life forms are not, they can achieve abstract existence through information, but they are not conceptual

anyway, let's wait for the moderators now

 

[ImmortalDread]

I was actually corrected that only demons and angels are conceptual, spiritual life forms are not, they can achieve abstract existence through information, but they are not conceptual

anyway, let's wait for the moderators now

Mhm, spiritual forms are indeed AE 1 since they are “abstract” through information, but about demons, I am really doubting tho. Seems possibly for me.

 

[Peak]

Mhm, spiritual forms are indeed AE 1 since they are “abstract” through information, but about demons, I am really doubting tho. Seems possibly for me.

valid, we need someone from the staff to judge this

 

[donegbe]

Mhm, spiritual forms are indeed AE 1 since they are “abstract” through information, but about demons, I am really doubting tho. Seems possibly for me.

From this, the soul is just crystalized energy that covers the heart/core/nucleus, is it okay now??

"Quality aside, flora and fauna had souls of very little energy.
Compared to that, the amount in human souls was enormous.
Whether this much energy was in any and all humans was not yet confirmed.
Were they actually using this energy? It depended on their Skills, which used such Spirit Energy.
Data engraved on the soul, would become one with the soul’s bearer.
As for whether it was possible to input this data directly, it wasn’t so simple.
First of all, there’s the ego, which is enveloped by the Nucleic Heart.
It is there that all the data is engraved.
The crystallization of energy around the Nucleic Heart forms into the soul.
The Possession Jewel was a vessel on which this Heart was projected.
The Heart didn’t possess its own energy, but the ego did.
So it was possible to have an ego without necessarily having a strong enough soul to utilize Skills.
And the Possession Jewel is able to use the Spirit Energy as a substitute for one’s internal reserve of energy.
But that had its limits, considering that the quality of the energy being different.
Well, it was a simple toy for enjoying the Labyrinth so the limits didn’t matter.
The point is, even if the Nucleic Heart had Skill data engraved inside, without enough Spirit Energy, the Skills could not be used."

CHAPTER 161

 

[ImmortalDread]

From this, the soul is just crystalized energy that covers the heart/core/nucleus, is it okay now??

We are not talking about soul. We are talking about the mass of energy.

 

[Everything12]

Rimuru absorbed and analysed angels and demons, but is their any evidence that proves that he used said analysis to change his being into an abstract one like theirs?

 

[Peak]

Rimuru absorbed and analysed angels and demons, but is their any evidence that proves that he used said analysis to change his being into an abstract one like theirs?

yes, this is in Rimuru's profile in the physiology part, but for some reason it only has type 2 abstract existence even though it is a conceptual existence

Demon: As an Awakened Demon Lord, he absorbed and analyzed demons, thus becoming a demon. Demons were born as conceptual existences that receive power from the Spirit of Darkness and will revive as long as the Spirit of Darkness exists. Their resurrection, however, takes hundreds of years.

Angel: As a Pseudo True Dragon he absorbed and analyzed a seraphim, thus becoming a seraphim. Angels were born as conceptual existences that receive power from the Spirit of Light and will revive as long as the Spirit of Light exists. Their resurrection, however, takes hundreds of years.

 

[Everything12]

Can I see scans instead of summaries that prove he can and did do this?

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

Can I see scans instead of summaries that prove he can and did do this?

Rimuru, no Raphael, observed the demon with two shining red eyes.

No emotions reflect in those beautiful eyes,

《Understood. The amount of energy is confirmed to be sufficient in covering up the remaining portion.》

Then, he was devoured by the Gluttonous King (Beelzebub) without resistance.

The moment he was devoured, the greater devil dissimilated. (Tensura WN Chapter 71)

He is able to mimic the targets he devours because he has 'Mimicry'.

《Solution. The effects of Unique Skill『Predator』are…

Predation: To absorb the target into the body. However, if the target is conscious, the success rate greatly decreases. The affected targets include organic matter, inorganic matter, skills, and magic.

Analysis: The absorbed target is studied and analyzed. Craftable items can then be produced. Should many items gather, a duplicate can be produced. In the case of successful skill or magic analysis, the same technique can be acquired.

Stomach: The target can be stored. Items produced can also be stored. There is no storage time limit.

Mimicry: Replicate the target’s appearance. The skills and abilities used by the target can also be used. However, this depends on the successful analysis and acquisition of relative information regarding the target.

Isolation: Materials harmful or unnecessary for analysis can also be stored. They will be used to replace magic energy.

These five points are your power》(Tensura Web Novel Chapter 1)

 

[Everything12]

Any scans that show it's capable of copying something of the likes of Abstract Existence?