TenSura LN Major Revision - Slime-Verse Salvation, Part 1 - Tier 0 Slime is Real

[Astral_Trinity439]

The context I get from this is that he basically immanent and omniscient before giving up his omnipotence and omniscience? He know the outcomes of all-things and get bored because of that (The notion of all encompassing can be bored is absurd, but I digress), so after that act of giving up omnipotency and omniscient- not everything is him then? Because that what I seen from the scan and my own causal reasoning.

From what I understand, you're asking if God was reduced of its All-encompassing state? No
I already explained that before:

The "I was created" is referring to Veldanava as the avatar, not God. This is clear by the fact that in another instance of the same volume, its said he was manifested. To be exact, God manifested Veldanava[his avatar] before creation of the World, where he was alone since the World didn't exist yet. This also goes along the fact that "Veldanava desired change and thus gave up his "Omniscience and All-Encompassing Nature"[aka manifested as an avatar] showing that his true form[God] cannot change, which is why it manifested an avatar[Veldanava]. I think with that, its pretty clear that "I was created" is referring to Veldanava, not God.

"Veldanava", strictly speaking, is a True Dragon, the star king dragon, yet the Godhead is what created the true dragons.

Additionally, there's another instance where Feldway stated that the system of Cause and Effect is "self-inflicted", and because Veldanava is now effected by it, he isn't Omnipotent and Omniscient. In other words, since Veldanava is not Omnipotent and Omniscient anymore[aka he isn't God, and just an imperfect manifestation], he is prone to Cause and Effect, implying that his true form originally was not.

God being "created" would contradict these statements, but that contradiction can be fixed when we look at it from another angle where it was Veldanava who was created, not God.

So Veldanava want to attain imperfection from "absolute oneness"? Which in this case his own original self?

This scans doesn't really explain what is the absolute oneness either (this is why I need detailed exposition), it just used as one use word in my opinion.

His true state

As a chinaman myself, we can't really use Taoist and Buddhist terminology unless it was explained thoroughly in the verse itself (in my opinion). Nirvana being a state where soul being freed from restriction and arriving to the promised land sound viable. But previous passage makes it look like it was used in combat than in metaphysical purpose, doesn't really reduce the validity though.

It is mentioned later that beings that are reduced to God essentially go back to the All-Encompassing Completeness, where "Everything" already exists.
Carrera is one of the Primordials, an extremely trustworthy being in terms of acting as a source of info, giving her long experience and the fact that "Demons" in general deal with Souls on a vast scale in-verse. Also, its not just Carrera saying it, but rather the narrator saying it and then calling it as "Carrera Knew", so its an established fact rather then a personal opinion from Carrera.

Also slight correction, Moksha doesn't really exist in Buddhism, it exist in Jainism and Hinduism.

But I digress

I did mention that in the scan

Translator Note : The Kanji used for Dissolution at the end is 解脱, which means Moksha in Japanese. Moksha as in the Hinduism sense, or the Buddhism sense as well, uniting with God and attaining Nirvana, both beliefs overlap.
Wikipedia : https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hans/解脫

This is Taoism 101, just change flow with qi and truth of the world with Heavenly Dao. And I don't really think this is very evident since one qi can be ones and harmonious with the universe while still not tier 0. Unless flow are thoroughly explained in verse, I don't really see this. I don't really see the state without quality in this one, as they still have their own distinct waves.

It isn't "thoroughly" explained per say, but Michael's scan of returning to the all-encompassing completeness serves as supporting evidence.
Also, that part was rather for the "Illusions are reduced to the ethereal" part rather then the one before it.

Michael scan can mean that the original "All Encompassing" still exist and that Veldanava is just a farce, a good scan but one can assimilate with other will without being tier 0; but I digress.

Already explained that in the OP, and yes, God still exists, it never went through change to begin with.

Counter Arguments

Spoiler: Counters

• Veldanava gave up his omniscience and omnipotence, but a Tier 0 cannot become a Non-Tier 0, wouldn't that be a contradiction?

Answer : Not at all, since Veldanava itself was the means that God used to give up his omnipotence, that is, creating an Avatar. Proof of which is that the All-Encompassing Completeness still exists. Even more so is the fact that Veldanava was willed into existence and was born/created, and the fact that the form of all True Dragons we see, such as Veldora, Velzard, etc., are just avatars of their True Form. The same applies to Veldanava, the only difference is that his True Form is a bit more special.

Interesting that most angels want to unite all the powers to resurrect an Omnipotent and Omniscient being (which should be impossible in any way) but since Feldway say that just a logical theory and never brought up again I would ignore that. It was mentioned many times in the scan that Velda giving up his Omnipotency many times.

I explained that in the scan description

Explanation : Michael's theory was that taking all Angelic Skills into one body would revive Veldanava, who Michael believed was Omnipotent and Omniscient. However, Feldway, more knowledgeable then him, rejects this idea with due to the simple reason that the Veldanava that Michael knew was never Omnipotent nor Omniscient to begin with. Because Veldanava had thrown away his Omnipotence because he sought Imperfection from the Absolute One-ness, he was now bounded to Cause and Effect, the result of which was his Death by the hands of Humans, but none of this would have banned if Veldanava was transcendent of Cause and Effect to begin with, which his Omnipotent self was, or IS, to be exact.

Translator Note : Veldanava was a means to experience change, implying that God was changeless, as otherwise he would not have to create an Avatar like Veldanava

But the main point of this scan that he caused the first cause, as he was the one who started cycle of causality and it doesn't exist before he created it. Good scan for aca type 5 on his previous self.

Indeed

God in his absolute, eternal and infinite existence should already encompassed the very 'Change' itself without even needed to send an avatar to the world. I really thought that the Author doesn't really understand the immutability of omnipotence and use that word freely, he make Velda giving up his omnipotency as one of the main plot of the novel.

Which is explained, actually. You're vastly misunderstanding what "giving up" means here.

Also bold claim for Veldanava as a mere avatar without concrete and clear scans to support this, as this is one of the main point for Will of God tier 0.

It is already explained in the OP and in a thread prior to this

Is Veldanava God?
No, he is not, not at all. Velgrynd, who is Veldanava's sister, stated that Veldanava is not God, but he is indeed the Creator of the World[1]. In fact, there are various kinds of traditional gods that became so through Evolution, but none can be the same as the Notion of God itself, none is the same as the All-Encompassing God[2].

Who is Veldanava?
If Veldanava is not God, what actually is he? Well, he was Willed into Existence, before the Creation of the World, but still after the Great Spirits, after which he derived from the Eight Great Divine Spirits the Seven Seraphim, as a response to which the Seven Demon Primogenitors also came to be as Shadows of the Light that was the Angels to maintain balance[3]. After this, he proceeded to create the World and lost Turn Null as a result[4]. Eventually, he lost his other powers as well after marrying Lucia, and died. But even that was simply because he willed it, or well, by the will of the Omnipotent and Omniscient God, according to whose will the World moves[2].
In truth, the form of True Dragons that everyone can perceive is merely a shape they take in response to Religious Desires of People[5], or if their actual self Wills it. Because in truth, their actual form exists as the Most Perfect and Unique Creation, completely All-Inclusive and Individual, a Singular Entity[5], that is, a Unity[5]. Is Veldanava the same? Yes, but not exactly. You see, while the rest of the True Dragons, even in their true form, are called Creations, Veldanava would be the Avatar of God, the Omnipotent and Omniscient as a means to experience Imperfection[2]. True Dragons are created by God as its Masterpiece, its Greatest Creation[6], with Veldanava being its own avatar it Willed into Existence as a means to experience change, implying that he cannot do so, in his True Form, after all, God cannot change, thus why he made an Avatar to experience it, that is, Veldanava.

Anyways, that it. I would wait for Ultima.

Same, but I felt it necessary to clear those doubts and misunderstandings of yours first.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Bump

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Bump [x2]

 

[Worthless]

I think that are just your interpretations of those scans to make it tier 0. I honestly see them as not enough.

Many of these are being interpreted in an exaggerated manner, presenting them as if they are much deeper than they actually are. LifeRider may not have approached the argument in a way that looks good in the eyes of the people here, but it’s a thought and counterargument that any normal person who reads the novel would have. The majority of these are just not as deep as the OP makes them out to be some of them aren't even literal, but rather hyperbolic

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Many of these are being interpreted in an exaggerated manner, presenting them as if they are much deeper than they actually are. LifeRider may not have approached the argument in a way that looks good in the eyes of the people here, but it’s a thought and counterargument that any normal person who reads the novel would have. The majority of these are just not as deep as the OP makes them out to be some of them aren't even literal, but rather hyperbolic

Go ahead and prove that. Cause this has evidence to back it up,actual feats/things that happened not just statements

 

[Mizuki67]

Many of these are being interpreted in an exaggerated manner, presenting them as if they are much deeper than they actually are. LifeRider may not have approached the argument in a way that looks good in the eyes of the people here, but it’s a thought and counterargument that any normal person who reads the novel would have. The majority of these are just not as deep as the OP makes them out to be some of them aren't even literal, but rather hyperbolic

I am guessing you want to be reported next ? We got your screen shots as well. Don't try anything funny I know you had a warning from Staff previously because of your misconduct behaviour

 

[Worthless]

I am guessing you want to be reported next ? We got your screen shots as well

I'll say whatever I want, whether you like it or not. I'm not people pleaser. This verse will never get an accurate profile as long as these supposedly "knowledgeable members" are around. And you love to see it how the OP blatantly Ignored Code comments.

 

[Robo432343]

I'll say whatever I want, whether you like it or not.

no you can't/won't

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Many of these are being interpreted in an exaggerated manner

Statements regarding a tier 0's nature are bound to look "Exaggerated" simply because of what they must be. Words like "All-Encompassing" etc are exaggerating indeed in simple English, as well as in a normal scan, but when regarded to a Tier 0, they aren't exaggerated at all since that's what a Tier 0's nature must include to begin with.

The majority of these are just not as deep as the OP makes them out to be some of them aren't even literal, but rather hyperbolic

That's not really an argument given you aren't using any scans or proof to back up your claims of "it's hyperbolic". You're claiming the OP should be otherwise and the scans are hyperbolic but never proving why.

 

[LoganKroos]

Will this discussion lead to anything in the end? I don't remember veldanava having anything that would justify it as a tier 0, but a tier 1A I think is very easy to obtain

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Will this discussion lead to anything in the end?

That is why it was made to begin with

I don't remember veldanava having anything that would justify it as a tier 0, but a tier 1A I think is very easy to obtain

Literally the OP

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

0 feats
0 direct evidence
7 jargon, and metaphors

you literally overly exaggerated the "World moving according to his will" when that exact sentence was used just to show he thrived on change
there's literally nothing else that makes this statement evidence for all including disagreement with your conclusion

Furthermore, The terms used such as all-encompassing, omnipotent, and omniscient can be used to make a point without being exactly true to its meaning
therefore it is necessary one must detail to explain or go in-depth on what they mean when mentioning this technobabble else anyone can just be anything by simply saying this.

Like what Ultima pointed out earlier. Much of this supposed evidence is at best throwaway lines as they do not go in-depth into explaining what it pertains to when mentioning technobabble. specially with the lack of direct positive argument to at least support the extrapolation and inference

 

[CodeCCLL]

0 feats

Can you give a few examples of feats that are specific to Tier 0?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

One of the main point that I can use to makes the argument that Veldanava is just an avatar weak, is why the Author deliberately always use "giving up omnipotence" instead of straight up writing that he is just an avatar?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Can you give a few examples of feats that are specific to Tier 0?

that's for their 1-A alternative but ok

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

0 feats
0 direct evidence
7 jargon, and metaphors

That isn't an argument. You're straight up calling them Metaphoric when a Tier 0's feats/statements are bound to sound metaphoric. Additionally, it seems you didn't even care to read the thread given you didn't realize your entire argument was already addressed before here:

Statements regarding a tier 0's nature are bound to look "Exaggerated" simply because of what they must be. Words like "All-Encompassing" etc are exaggerating indeed in simple English, as well as in a normal scan, but when regarded to a Tier 0, they aren't exaggerated at all since that's what a Tier 0's nature must include to begin with.

you literally overly exaggerated the "World moving according to his will" when that exact sentence was used just to show he thrived on change

Again, not an argument. Present argument on how I exaggerated it, not just "you exaggerated it".

when that exact sentence was used just to show he thrived on change

That too is but a mere part of the statement.

Veldanava was a dreamer (romanticist), but he was also a perfectionist. He could think of ideals as ideals, but he also had a cool head and a sense of detachment when something was unrealizable. As a result of Veldanava's abandonment of Omniscience and All-encompassing nature in pursuit of change, it was impossible for him to realize the ideal society he envisioned. For Veldanava, however, it was the right thing to do. A world that can be changed into whatever he wants it to be is not interesting at all.

The "World moves according to the will" refers to a philosophical theory, Ultima already said that it wouldn't give much, thus why I left it at that.

there's literally nothing else that makes this statement evidence for all including disagreement with your conclusion

Where all the disagreements were already debunked, yes. You're only saying people disagreed with my conclusion, but you're completely ignoring the debunks made against their arguments [after which all of them stopped replying at some point; they conceded]. Unless you want to address my debunks themselves, then address them, otherwise this not any argument against the OP itself.

Furthermore, The terms used such as all-encompassing, omnipotent, and omniscient can be used to make a point without being exactly true to its meaning

But otherwise is also possible. We might have had a "reason" to not use them to mean the exact same thing IF there were anti-feats, such as someone surpassing God, or anything on that regards. BUT there isn't any, and given these terms are used repeatedly, there's no reason to not use them to their exact meaning.
God's Omnipotency comes because it is all-encompassing and/or absolute one-ness, its all-encompassing-ness comes from its Quality-less nature, and so on, its in a loop.

therefore it is necessary one must detail to explain or go in-depth on what they mean when mentioning this technobabble else anyone can just be anything by simply saying this.

The Omnipotence page itself already states that there's no need to go "In-depth", just following the fundamental principles is enough to grant tier 0.

Q: Do I really need to adopt all that stuff whenever I set a verse to Tier 0?
A: Not at all. A verse does not need to create a perfect reproduction of any of the above accounts in order to qualify for the tier, as long as all of the sufficient conditions for it are met. The explanations above largely serve to give a demonstration of how Tier 0 works, and a default coherent explanation for how it would exist and interact with certain concepts. But a verse can adopt other views and even throw conventional logic out of the window as much as it likes, as long as it follows the basic concept given and the demands listed. Ultimately, the rating itself is a concept distilled to be independent from all its particular formulations in the history of philosophy.

And the basic principles it follows indeed, it is the all-encompassing, the all-in-one and one-in-all, the absolute/true one-ness that lacks even the distinction between one-ness and many-ness, the lack of qualities/Moksha/Nirvana, Changeless/beyond causality. Those are the basic principles one needs to follow to grant a tier 0, and that God obviously does.

Like what Ultima pointed out earlier. Much of this supposed evidence is at best throwaway lines as they do not go in-depth into explaining what it pertains to when mentioning technobabble. specially with the lack of direct positive argument to at least support the extrapolation and inference

I keep seeing this "Like what Ultima pointed out earlier", but I wonder why everyone is just ignoring the fact that Ultima's arguments were already addressed here and here, with the latter one providing an full "In-depth" and comprehensive explanation on why God is tier 0, if anyone cared to read it, that is. Just saying "like Ultima said" or "Because Ultima said" is not an argument at all when their arguments have already been debunked.

 

[CodeCCLL]

that's for their 1-A alternative but ok

I specifically want Tier 0, not 1-A, because in your previous comment you specifically claimed that Veldanava needs the Tier 0 feat and I say show an example of this.

One of the main point that I can use to makes the argument that Veldanava is just an avatar weak, is why the Author deliberately always use "giving up omnipotence" instead of straight up writing that he is just an avatar

This question varies depending on what is claimed to be an avatar. If you claim that the abstract will of the Tier 0 God is an avatar of the True Dragon body, there is a scan of this, but if you claim that the abstract will of the Veldanava with the True Dragon body is also an avatar of the more abstract Tier 0 God, there is no direct proof for this.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

One of the main point that I can use to makes the argument that Veldanava is just an avatar weak, is why the Author deliberately always use "giving up omnipotence" instead of straight up writing that he is just an avatar?

It's the choice of the author. Not every author likes to write things in a straight-forward manner, and often, the whole fact is divided into smaller statements that the author can randomly or not-so randomly drop for the reader to figure them out.
But a short answer would probably be because he tried to kept it to his original method in the WN version which the LN version of "God" follows.
An avatar being weak is also not an argument, since a tier 0's avatar mustn't necessarily be High 1-A+ or anything in that regard. For all the author wants, he can throw out conventional/traditional writing and even make the avatar tier 10.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

It's the choice of the author. Not every author likes to write things in a straight-forward manner, and often, the whole fact is divided into smaller statements that the author can randomly or not-so randomly drop for the reader to figure them out.
But a short answer would probably be because he tried to kept it to his original method in the WN version which the LN version of "God" follows.
An avatar being weak is also not an argument, since a tier 0's avatar mustn't necessarily be High 1-A+ or anything in that regard. For all the author wants, he can throw out conventional/traditional writing and even make the avatar tier 10.

I said that the argument were weak, not the avatar.

And I don't think that enough for tier 0, as there should be more concrete and valid proof for this. The Author keep writing that Veldanava is "Giving up omnipotence" instead of "Being an avatar".

And In my opinion, the author are writing this as in Velda literally giving up his Omnipotence.

 

[Robo432343]

wtf

• Acausality (Higher Degree of Type 4; Rimuru is a higher being than an Ultimate Skill user being comparable to Veldanava [61])

 

[Mizuki67]

wtf

• Acausality (Higher Degree of Type 4; Rimuru is a higher being than an Ultimate Skill user being comparable to Veldanava [61])

No idea why you literally brought this up this is just how Rimuru was defying the system made by Veldanava. Again it does not mean much. The OP already mentioned that characters breaking laws of the world is part of pre establish harmony. I don't think you came here with the intention of reading . You should stop wasting time

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

wtf

• Acausality (Higher Degree of Type 4; Rimuru is a higher being than an Ultimate Skill user being comparable to Veldanava [61])

A previously[and currently] used rating. Just because the wording in the page says it doesn't mean the scan must have it the same as well. This wording was made far before even the tiering system revisions, if my memory serves correctly.

The scan link isn't even working to begin with. Why are you even bringing up a "wording" used in a page rather then an actual scan
Also, for those curious, this referred to Creator[Avatar] Veldanava, not God.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

And I don't think that enough for tier 0, as there should be more concrete and valid proof for this. The Author keep writing that Veldanava is "Giving up omnipotence" instead of "Being an avatar".

And In my opinion, the author are writing this as in Velda literally giving up his Omnipotence.

Didn't saw this before. But seeing it now, I'll say its enough proof of Veldanava being an avatar that the All-encompassing completeness still exists. If Veldanava did literally give up his omnipotence and the all-encompassing one[the omnipotent self] was no longer, then that wouldn't explain what I said before and would contradict the novel itself.

Additionally, its implied many times that the Omnipotent self is changeless and beyond cause and effect, if it did not create Veldanava as an "Avatar", that would mean the author is contradicting his own statements. But all that can simply be solved by assuming that Veldanava was an avatar, which is heavily backed up by the fact that Veldanava's siblings are also manifested avatars of their true self[their true self in turn being the greatest creation of God]. The only difference here would be that Veldanava's "true form" would be a bit more special.