Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Discussion Thread 20

[Georredannea15]

So, could you tell me how I can prove perpendicularity in Time travel? Or is it impossible?

DT had a precedent for this.

Time traveling from one timeline to another timeline means independent or branching timelines. Or time traveling within one timeline and the others are not affected by it, which means they are independent of each other but not hypertimelines.

However, in a timeline that changes and remains the same without any external influence, if you time travel to the time before the change in that timeline, it is a 5-dimensional timeline. Because time travel is done in snapshots, and if you time travel between other timelines in "snapshots" within a timeline, it is a 4-dimensional snapshot, which means that the main timeline you are traveling on intersects with a perpendicular axis. So, it is possible but it is damn hard. That's why there are only a few rare verses that rise in this way. One of them is DBH


There are a few rare verses that have this, one of them is DB herous who clearly has this.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Alright so, one thing I noticed in V21

So, Rimuru was sent to Beyond Space-Time by Feldway, where the timeline was over and Feldway had destroyed the Universe of the fundamental World, but despite that, "Time still passed" as how Ciel explains it, and after an eternity, they reached the End of the World, where the World itself was destroyed too, this point was called the End of Time, where Rimuru explains that Time didn't flow and it was always 0 time, and unlike Suspended World where only Time is stopped, at the End of the World neither time nor space flows or extends

But than there's another thing, despite Time ending and the World being destroyed, Rimuru could still travel in time to the "past", going through a "Space-time path" which is the Subspace. Here Rimuru confirms that Chloe wouldn't be able to travel in time to the "past" because time had ended, Rimuru also stated that Time ended so there's "no time" in the first place, so no "Past" to go back to, but Rimuru himself still could

So from what I understand from this

Universe of the fundamental world : Its own Timeline
World : Its own "Time" that flowed even after the timeline/universe was destroyed, in other words, the Omega timeline, this is the timeline Chloe can travel into the past of
Subspace : Its own time axis that remained even after the World has destroyed, this is the time axis in which Rimuru travelled, and Chloe couldn't

Of course, by definition, all three of these would be orthogonal.

 

[Georredannea15]

Please take a look at the staff revision I made in this "hypertimeline", we've covered everything there. An attempt was made to make this "orthogonality" thing basically a default thing, but it was changed and is no longer a default thing.

 

[Mizuki67]

Please take a look at the staff revision I made in this "hypertimeline", we've covered everything there. An attempt was made to make this "orthogonality" thing basically a default thing, but it was changed and is no longer a default thing.

You should become a staff, it'll be nice

 

[Georredannea15]

Alright so, one thing I noticed in V21

So, Rimuru was sent to Beyond Space-Time by Feldway, where the timeline was over and Feldway had destroyed the Universe of the fundamental World, but despite that, "Time still passed" as how Ciel explains it, and after an eternity, they reached the End of the World, where the World itself was destroyed too, this point was called the End of Time, where Rimuru explains that Time didn't flow and it was always 0 time, and unlike Suspended World where only Time is stopped, at the End of the World neither time nor space flows or extends

But than there's another thing, despite Time ending and the World being destroyed, Rimuru could still travel in time to the "past", going through a "Space-time path" which is the Subspace. Here Rimuru confirms that Chloe wouldn't be able to travel in time to the "past" because time had ended, Rimuru also stated that Time ended so there's "no time" in the first place, so no "Past" to go back to, but Rimuru himself still could

So from what I understand from this

Universe of the fundamental world : Its own Timeline
World : Its own "Time" that flowed even after the timeline/universe was destroyed, in other words, the Omega timeline, this is the timeline Chloe can travel into the past of
Subspace : Its own time axis that remained even after the World has destroyed, this is the time axis in which Rimuru travelled, and Chloe couldn't

Of course, by definition, all three of these would be orthogonal.

As I just said "timeline should changing inherently, without any outside influence" And the destruction of the world and the end of time... is already a great anti-feat.


Basically, you can time travel back to before the destruction of something. This is the same as going back to the beginning or the past after everything is destroyed, and can basically be done on the same axis because the snapshots here are not 4-D like a timeline. This was already something that was rejected, as I said, if you read the revision I made, you will understand.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Please take a look at the staff revision I made in this "hypertimeline", we've covered everything there. An attempt was made to make this "orthogonality" thing basically a default thing, but it was changed and is no longer a default thing.

can you link the thread? I can't find it via search

 

[Georredannea15]

You should become a staff, it'll be nice

Nah, thank you brother. I was just want corrected a mistake made in the standards, and now this is the situation. Staffing is challenging

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

As I just said "timeline should changing inherently, without any outside influence" And the destruction of the world and the end of time... is already a great anti-feat.


Basically, you can time travel back to before the destruction of something. This is the same as going back to the beginning or the past after everything is destroyed, and can basically be done on the same axis because the snapshots here are not 4-D like a timeline. This was already something that was rejected, as I said, if you read the revision I made, you will understand.

You can travel back to before the destruction of something, yes, however, what if the space-time continuum itself is destroyed? I mean, when you go back to the past, you go back by travelling in "Time", but what if even time was no longer? the only way in that case would be going back in a higher time axis/overarching timeline

 

[Georredannea15]

can you link the thread? I can't find it via search

Re:evulation of temporal dimension standards

Alr, here we go! I'd like to mention that I obtained permission from @Qawsedf234 🙏 This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather...

vsbattles.com

Seriously dude, I had to go against the entire wiki when I did this and I did it with DT's support. It was terrible you know?

 

[Mizuki67]

Re:evulation of temporal dimension standards

Alr, here we go! I'd like to mention that I obtained permission from @Qawsedf234 🙏 This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather...

vsbattles.com

Seriously dude, I had to go against the entire wiki when I did this and I did it with DT's support. It was terrible you know?

You caused this

 

[Georredannea15]

You can travel back to before the destruction of something, yes, however, what if the space-time continuum itself is destroyed? I mean, when you go back to the past, you go back by travelling in "Time", but what if even time was no longer? the only way in that case would be going back in a higher time axis/overarching timeline

There's not much difference. Essentially, the snapshots from that time are still the same. Still 3-D

 

[Georredannea15]

You caused this

Damn...

 

[Mizuki67]

you are to blame and here you don't want to be a staff?

 

[Georredannea15]

Hell no!!!

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

There's not much difference. Essentially, the snapshots from that time are still the same. Still 3-D

uh, no, we have our standards defining a Space-time as a collection of uncountably infinite snapshots, which is why it is Low 2-C for containing uncountably infinite 3-A snapshots,

Q: How do temporal dimensions impact on tiering?​

A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A).

So if the space-time is destroyed, and there is no higher time axis, there shouldn't be any time travel possible when there's no "snapshot" [point in time] to go back to

 

[Mizuki67]

uh, no, we have our standards defining a Space-time as a collection of uncountably infinite snapshots, which is why it is Low 2-C for containing uncountably infinite 3-A snapshots,

So if the space-time is destroyed, and there is no higher time axis, there shouldn't be any time travel possible when there's no "snapshot" [point in time] to go back to

That means the hypertimeline snapshotted the other timeline

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Re:evulation of temporal dimension standards

Alr, here we go! I'd like to mention that I obtained permission from @Qawsedf234 🙏 This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather...

vsbattles.com

Seriously dude, I had to go against the entire wiki when I did this and I did it with DT's support. It was terrible you know?

Also, reading this, I realized that the standards I was using are still the new ones, not the old ones, but it seems you misunderstood me
What I'm trying to say here is

Universe : Its own timeline, in other words, an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots
the World/Omega Timeline : Its own time flow, each snapshot in this timeline would be holding all of the previous timelines, in other words, each snapshot would be 4D, resultantly, the whole omega timeline, which is an uncountably infinite amount of [4D] snapshots, would be 5D.
The same applies to the subspace's time

That means the hypertimeline snapshotted the other timeline

Exactly, but that's only the case where a "hyper timeline" exists. And that's the case for slime, a hypertimeline does exist in this case, overarching the lower timelines

If a hypertimeline does not exist and the space-time itself is destroyed, there's no possible way to go back to the "past"[a point in time/a snapshot] of that space-time when those snapshots themselves are destroyed due to destruction of the whole Space-time continuum

 

[Georredannea15]

uh, no, we have our standards defining a Space-time as a collection of uncountably infinite snapshots, which is why it is Low 2-C for containing uncountably infinite 3-A snapshots,

Are you smoking? Since snapshots in the space-time continuum are 3-D, the space-time structure is entirely 4-D.

So if the space-time is destroyed, and there is no higher time axis, there shouldn't be any time travel possible when there's no "snapshot" [point in time] to go back to

This basically doesn't need to be done with the higher time dimension. Because a 4-dimensional timeline or time axis can hold more than one space-time continuum. Because the timeline can basically contain one or more space-times. This... can basically be done with a larger timeline, but it still continues along the same axis as the space-time it covers.

Ultima explains here that just because there are different space-time continuums doesn't mean there is more than one timeline, and what you have is "space-time." In short, these are different things, and even if they were, I don't know if it would change much.

 

[Georredannea15]

Also, reading this, I realized that the standards I was using are still the new ones, not the old ones, but it seems you misunderstood me
What I'm trying to say here is

Universe : Its own timeline, in other words, an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots
the World/Omega Timeline : Its own time flow, each snapshot in this timeline would be holding all of the previous timelines, in other words, each snapshot would be 4D, resultantly, the whole omega timeline, which is an uncountably infinite amount of [4D] snapshots, would be 5D.
The same applies to the subspace's time

Exactly, but that's only the case where a "hyper timeline" exists. And that's the case for slime, a hypertimeline does exist in this case, overarching the lower timelines

If a hypertimeline does not exist and the space-time itself is destroyed, there's no possible way to go back to the "past"[a point in time/a snapshot] of that space-time when those snapshots themselves are destroyed due to destruction of the whole Space-time continuum

I'll say it many times, but the overarching timeline doesn't give you that.

As I quoted from Ultima above, these overarching timelines span multiple universal spaces, and together they become “independent space-time continuums.” This overarching timeline is the 4th axis. (Also DT explained this)


Even having this overarching timeline span multiple independent timelines doesn't give you 5-D because the overarching timeline can still move in essentially the same direction of motion as the timelines it covers. Like a larger 1D line resting on top of the 1D lines and extending in the same direction, the plane would still be 1D.


So, it's like ;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> X-Dimensional (overarching timeline or temporal dimension)
----------------------------------------------------------------------->X-Dimensional
----------------------------------------------------------------------->X-Dimensional
...

This plane would still be 1 dimensional. That's basically how it works with timelines and temporal dimensions. This was just a simple example. Although it is not exactly like this, this is the case in the draft

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Are you smoking? Since snapshots in the space-time continuum are 3-D, the space-time structure is entirely 4-D.

This basically doesn't need to be done with the higher time dimension. Because a 4-dimensional timeline or time axis can hold more than one space-time continuum. Because the timeline can basically contain one or more space-times. This... can basically be done with a larger timeline, but it still continues along the same axis as the space-time it covers.

Ultima explains here that just because there are different space-time continuums doesn't mean there is more than one timeline, and what you have is "space-time." In short, these are different things, and even if they were, I don't know if it would change much.

What if the "Universe" and the "World" here have their time axis?

"Universe", which here refers to normal Worlds[this is different from "The World", both are not to be confused] have their own time axis and Space-time Continuum, with Space between them[i.e., the 4th dimensional space that contains 4D space-times], and them being contained within a Dimension, that has its own different time axis and space between different dimensions, and all that being contained within "The World"?

I'm in a hurry so I can't link the scans now, will link it tomorrow, but need to know if with that context it can work or not

Edit : Additional context : What if travelling in the overarching timeline's time allows you to go to the other timelines that it overarches?

 

[Georredannea15]

What if the "Universe" and the "World" here have their time axis?

"Universe", which here refers to normal Worlds[this is different from "The World", both are not to be confused] have their own time axis and Space-time Continuum, with Space between them[i.e., the 4th dimensional space that contains 4D space-times], and them being contained within a Dimension, that has its own different time axis and space between different dimensions, and all that being contained within "The World"?

I'm in a hurry so I can't link the scans now, will link it tomorrow, but need to know if with that context it can work or not

Edit : Additional context : What if travelling in the overarching timeline's time allows you to go to the other timelines that it overarches?

This means that they are all separate space-time continuums, it does not mean that they are separate timelines or different temporal dimensions because one timeline or temporal dimension is enough to hold them all and they can all have a 4th axis.


However, even if these are all different temporal dimensions or different timelines, it still doesn't mean it will be 5-D. I explained this above with an example and even give you revision's link

 

[Mizuki67]

shit, when did scaling become so mathematical

 

[Rizkykarbit]

uh, no, we have our standards defining a Space-time as a collection of uncountably infinite snapshots, which is why it is Low 2-C for containing uncountably infinite 3-A snapshots,

Bro what. You should adjust the Wiki standard not the Wiki that adjusts your standard.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Bro what. You should adjust the Wiki standard not the Wiki that adjusts your standard.

.... say what?

Q: How do temporal dimensions impact on tiering?​

A: The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinite points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

This structure can then be generalized to any number of dimensions, which is why destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe (Low 2-C, rather than 3-A or High 3-A).

A Space-time continuum is L2-C unlike a physical universe[3A or High 3A] simply because the 4th time dimension of the Space-Time[4D] spawns an uncountably infinite snapshots of the physical universe[3 Spatial Dimensions], making the whole construct, as a whole Space-time, 4D, Low 2-C

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

.

Now that I have more time to read this, I'm seeing that, this is not exactly the case here[not saying ultima or DT are wrong, but saying that our case has a different context]

If lets say you have a bunch of timelines, that are stated to be Space-Time continuums with different flows of time and different time axes, and a "Space" between those Space-time continuums, that Space in this case would naturally be 4D, because its containing 4D Space-time continuums, and if a different time axis[separate from that of the earlier mentioned Space-times] spawns over that 4D space, forming a container Space-time that contains the prior mentioned space-time[like a multiverse containing L2-C space-times], that's basically adding 1D[time dimension] to that 4D space, where the Spatiality of this higher space-time is 4D due to containing space-times with different time axis, and overall as a space-time continuum, the higher space-time would be 5D, because each snapshot of that higher time dimension is 4D, with uncountably infinite amount of 4D snapshots, as a whole higher space-time continuum, would be 5D.

This, also, is already answered by the staff too

 

[Mizuki67]

by the way, there's an unaswered thread of jozay
Here it said apito god speed is SOL
And here it said Zegion easily surpasses that

The entire body of the Zegion glows in rainbow colors, pointing to the fact that almost all the exoskeleton covering its body has evolved into the ultimate metal.
The power of its fists is overwhelming beyond comparison.
It rips the sky and shatters the earth.
Its speed accelerates and accelerates, so tremendous that it lightly surpasses even Apito's god speed.

Additionally it said no one in the verse can see through his speed
His speed surpasses any thought acceleration

 

[Mizuki67]

this is clean FTL+ combat speed, since people on the level of rimuru have FTL perception speed, but since zegion overcomes that with sheer speed it becomes FTL+, combat speed, any objections

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

this is clean FTL+ combat speed, since people on the level of rimuru have FTL perception speed, but since zegion overcomes that with sheer speed it becomes FTL+, combat speed, any objections

if it gets to that, how should we treat the "Nothing can exceed the speed of light" statements in the novel? Inconsistencies?

 

[Mizuki67]

if it gets to that, how should we treat the "Nothing can exceed the speed of light" statements in the novel? Inconsistencies?

Its not inconsistent if turn null is involve

 

[CodeCCLL]

Here it said apito god speed is SOL
And here it said Zegion easily surpasses that

This is a translation mistake.

Spoiler: Raw

その直後、アピトが音速を超えて飛翔した

One of those Supersonic+.

Nothing can exceed the speed of light" statements in the novel?

Still valid.

 

[Mizuki67]

This is a translation mistake.

Spoiler: Raw

その直後、アピトが音速を超えて飛翔した

One of those Supersonic+.

Still valid.

How about exceeding thought acceleration

 

[Berga14]

How about exceeding thought acceleration

Idk but thought acceleration isn't always FTL, we use Rimuru's for all characters but tecnically thought acceleration doesn't have fixed value. As far as i remember there isn't any info about Vega's thought acceleration's multiplier

 

[CodeCCLL]

we use Rimuru's for all characters

No we don't, there are characters from the Web Novel who gain their thought acceleration directly from Rimuru. They scale to Rimuru, of course. However, in the Light Novel, the skill should not scale to Rimuru unless taken directly from Rimuru.

How about exceeding thought acceleration

Vega's thought acceleration's multiplier

Exactly this.

 

[Mizuki67]

Idk but thought acceleration isn't always FTL, we use Rimuru's for all characters but tecnically thought acceleration doesn't have fixed value. As far as i remember there isn't any info about Vega's thought acceleration's multiplier

No we don't, there are characters from the Web Novel who gain their thought acceleration directly from Rimuru. They scale to Rimuru, of course. However, in the Light Novel, the skill should not scale to Rimuru unless taken directly from Rimuru.


Exactly this.

You're inherently forgetting this scan

 

[Mizuki67]

oh wrong scan
I mean this

 

[Berga14]

oh wrong scan
I mean this

"Nearly" key word. Anyway that "for the first time" actually lead me to think that speed isn't the only thing here, but also something like the complexity of the tecnique.

 

[Georredannea15]

Now that I have more time to read this, I'm seeing that, this is not exactly the case here[not saying ultima or DT are wrong, but saying that our case has a different context]

If lets say you have a bunch of timelines, that are stated to be Space-Time continuums with different flows of time and different time axes, and a "Space" between those Space-time continuums, that Space in this case would naturally be 4D, because its containing 4D Space-time continuums, and if a different time axis[separate from that of the earlier mentioned Space-times] spawns over that 4D space, forming a container Space-time that contains the prior mentioned space-time[like a multiverse containing L2-C space-times], that's basically adding 1D[time dimension] to that 4D space, where the Spatiality of this higher space-time is 4D due to containing space-times with different time axis, and overall as a space-time continuum, the higher space-time would be 5D, because each snapshot of that higher time dimension is 4D, with uncountably infinite amount of 4D snapshots, as a whole higher space-time continuum, would be 5D.

This, also, is already answered by the staff too

You have made this argument before and it was rejected. It was even rejected by Qawsedf in the Q&A where you asked this question. So there is no point in repeating it over and over again. Yes, I remember very well. I was in that upgrade thread.

 

[Mizuki67]

"Nearly" key word. Anyway that "for the first time" actually lead me to think that speed isn't the only thing here, but also something like the complexity of the tecnique.

That reminds me, can this be nonexistent physiology or immersion

頑丈だな。次はもう少し強くいくぞ？」
「It's sturdy. I'll be a little stronger next time, okay?」
そう言うなり、ゼギオンの姿が掻き消えた。
As soon as she said that, Zegion vanished.
それは、ヴェガの認識力を遥かに超えた、ゼギオンの『神速機動』であった。
It was Zegion’s Divine Oscillation, far beyond Vega’s perception.
どれだけ『魔力感知』で『空間把握』していようとも、そしてそれを『思考加速』で認識していよ
うとも、ヴェガではゼギオンの動きを捕捉するなど不可能だ。
No matter how much I used Magic Sense to get a “space grasp” of it, and even if I used
Thought Acceleration to recognize it, it would be impossible for Vega to capture Zegion’s
movements
ゼギオンの動きはただ速いだけではなく、実体と幻惑、虚実入り混じったものだったからである。
This was because Zegion’s movements were not only fast, but also a mixture of substance,
illusion, and fiction

 

[Mizuki67]

We need more of God honestly, we have so little information of bro that its crazy, author fuse mentioned how rimuru is akin to azatoth and God to yog-sothoth, so much that if you google his name in kanji, yog-sothoth pops up

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

You have made this argument before and it was rejected. It was even rejected by Qawsedf in the Q&A where you asked this question. So there is no point in repeating it over and over again. Yes, I remember very well. I was in that upgrade thread.

literally these