Tatsumaki (OPM) tornado of terror Vs Madara Uchiha

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Who mentioned anything about teleportation though?

Okay. That's what clones are for.

I don't understand what you mean here. You seem to have provided me with more ammo. Madara >>>>>> Bee in every aspect of a shinobi. If he could pull off a replacement while Sasuke and Karin were observing him, Madara would be able to do it very easily. Your point only seems to prove that Madara can pull it off too.

Implying that Madara would wait until he was six miles in the air before attempting to do something. Also, sorry but I can't remember when it was ever stated to possess a limited range. The battlefield is to his advantage, he doesn't have to look for some log of wood, there are various plants and trees around him. Which will become much more when he creates various forests. Then again, he can also switch with his clones.

I've already asked this numerous times. How's Tatsumaki going to kill a dead person with Low-High Regenerationn? In fact, it's only going to surprise her when she sees Madara's Regenerationn which Madara can use to his advantage and catch her off guard.


So no issues with Mind Manipulation and my other points? I assume they sound alright?

 

[Bleuburd]

So Tatsumaki can control something that works like oxygen now. Proof? Otherwise, NLF.

Uhmmmm Air? I'm pretty sure Air is like oxygen. Also Air has more similarities to oxygen than oxygen has to pollen. Pollen is more like dust, and the barrier has blocked dust, debris and other miscellaneous object before. Catching Tats without her barrier is nearly impossible, I've explained this before. Note that verse equalization means that chakra equals psychic energy, and Tatsumaki is an esper so strong she can control Psychic energy/chakra of other beings (webcomic feat), she can also sense it, so she basically has something like a Byakugan (bad example I know) .

 

[Damage3245]

I think you're misunderstanding the "swapping places with a clone" in the manga.

When Madara fought Hashirama at the end of their fight, Hashirama didn't teleport out of the way and leave a clone in his place. He just had a clone in front of Madara while the real Hashirama was behind him.

Naruto never teleports with any of his clones. Sure, they are sometimes there to impersonate him but that's not teleportation.

The Replacement jutsu definitely isn't teleportation jutsu. It's just high-speed movement, where you leave something behind in your place. Otherwise jutsu like Minato's & Sasuke's would not be considered exceptional.

Characters don't actually swap places with a physical object via teleportation. They swap places via FTE movement.

So, no, if Madara is several miles in the air held in place via telekinesis, he can't teleport himself out.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

@Bleuburd

I mean it spreads like air. It penetrated Madara's Susanoo that's essentially a barrier that protects the user. Um, even fodder from different verses can sense their respective energies like that. Also I've been making points of Madara spamming his strongest attacks so he can destroy Tatsumaki's barriers. That won't be necessary soon enough since he's getting upgraded to High 6-C. Until then, my other points still stand.

@Damage3245

I thought that was what Naruto did against Kakuzu which was why Kakashi, Kakuzu and the rest of Team 10 were surprised when it was actually a clone that Kakuzu destroyed with his tentacles.

What about Madara switching with a clone to fake his death? Look at this:

A clone that is created by using chakra to alter the user's own cells into vegetation. The clones can be as simple in function as a wooden dummy for use in the Body Replacement Technique or completely mobile and able to perform jutsu.

Which clearly means users can replace themselves with their clones.

How does high speed movement allow you to leave something that was far away from your location in your place? It's not possible. So genin that aren't even supersonic can move so fast that they can leave objects in their place while people like Hashirama for example can't? That's not how it works. It allows you to replace yourself with objects around you.

With this technique, users replace their own body with some other object, generally with a block of wood, the moment an attack lands. Despite it being a basic ninjutsu taught at the Academy, it is seen as a useful art that can be applied in variety of situations as it allows for a swift getaway from danger. The technique even allows a restrained shinobi to escape capture.

That's what the wiki says. Now how does a restrained shinobi even move his body that way?

I admit that I've always wondered why Kishimoto introduced some things like this. There are different teleportation techniques in Naruto like Kamui, Flying Thunder God, Amenotejikara and Yomotsu Hirasaka. All of them essentially just allows the user to teleport. I'm not the one that told Kishimoto to introduce them. But there are some differences between the various teleportation jutsu in Naruto.

So yeah, Madara can escape by replacing himself with his clone or using the Body Replacement Technique.

 

[Damage3245]

It's moving FTE and leaving something behind in your place. In the cases when it is a clone restrained or destroyed it doesn't mean a person teleported out of there, it just means they left a clone in their place to take the hit.

Hashirama can do it too, as can all Shinobi.

Not every Shinobi has access to space-time jutsu otherwise it wouldn't be considered as impressive as it is in-verse. What you imagine the Replacement Jutsu to be is just exactly what Sasuke's Rinnegan jutsu is; a teleportation jutsu that lets him swap places with objects / people.

If people could just teleport themselves and leave something behind in their place, why wouldn't they be teleporting their opponents or their allies?

Madara switching places with a clone took place after his death; he resurrected himself via Izanagi and left a Shadow Clone on the table to make it look like he was still dead. There was no teleportation involved there.

When Kakashi, Kakazu and Team 10 were surprised it wasn't a case of Naruto teleporting and swapping places with a clone, it just means it was a clone the whole time that got destroyed.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Right. Look at the explanation of the Replacement jutsu again. It allows you to replace yourself with objects around you. It's not currently my problem if Kishimoto introduces something that contradicts another thing. Again, how would a restrained shinobi move and a log of wood appears in his place? In fact, how does a shinobi leave something in his place because of high speed movement? If this was so, characters would be leaving inanimate objects in their place anytime they move fast. I'm not imagining it to be like that. That's how it works. I doubt academy students are even subsonic and they can do it. There's no way someone would move so fast that a log of wood in front of you will magically appear in your place. A restrained shinobi can't even move properly. Yet how does a log of wood appear in his place because he moved fast? How did he even move fast in the first place when he's restrained?

I'm not sure about the clone stuff but okay. The description that I pasted clearly shows that Madara would be able to replace himself with his clones.

 

[Damage3245]

When a restrained shinobi escapes using the replacement jutsu, they presumably just escape the restraints and leave an object in their place.

As far as I understand it, it's just a matter of being FTE and leaving an object in your place; creating an optical illusion that you just got hit by an attack.

> If this was so, characters would be leaving inanimate objects in their place anytime they move fast.

They don't always do that because it wouldn't be effective against opponents that can easily keep up with them. Hence why in the last few arcs they almost never use the Replacement jutsu.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Why would a restrained shinobi even waste chakra to perform a replacement when he could just break out of it?

What? It's either Kishimoto forgot about it around that time or it's simple CIS/PIS that was involved. Pain performed the jutsu in his fight with Jiraiya. I guess he can't keep up with Pain? Or Pain can't keep up with Jiraiya?

Let's just forget it please. We should just agree to disagree. It's taking too much space. Now Madara can replace himself with his clones. He (or his clones) can use ash from his Fire Release to blind Tatsumaki and make her lose focus. Since he's in the air and might need to slam his hands on the ground to use some techniques, his clones can create wood pillars from beneath Tatsumaki to make her lose focus. Or he (or his clones) could use Wood Release to form a dome around himself and prevent himself from being lifted into the air. Or his clones could just spam attacks at Tatsumaki. Or he could just use his Mind Manipulation and turn her into a vegetable. We don't even know how her BFR works.

Sorry but has she even used her powers on someone around her level? Because it seems like she had some trouble with Psykos and GS.

 

[Damage3245]

The only people Tatsumaki has struggled against is Saitama (obviously), Golden Sperm & Garo.

Both Golden Sperm and Garo fights took place after Tatsumaki was heavily injured & weakened. She still managed to defend herself against Golden Sperm's attacks and temporarily restrain Garo before being defeated.

Her BFR works by just lifting the opponent into space. It's fairly simple as far as BFR goes. Obviously there is trapping the opponent underground too but that wouldn't work against Madara for reasons discussed.

Blinding Tatsumaki via dust / ash wouldn't have much effect since she can use telekinetic barriers to move it out of the way. She can make an entire tornado if she wanted.

Spamming attacks via clones wouldn't be very effective; Tatsumaki was able to crush 10,000 Black Sperm clones simultaneously and stop many dozens of projectiles from Boros' ship with a wave of her hand.

Madara's defenses are good but Tatsumaki works at a range. She was able to locate Psykos more than a kilometre underground and lift her (and the entire Monster Association base) into the air easily. Madara's wooden defenses wouldn't last long against her.

If genjutsu is allowed then it would only work if he or a clone can get make eye contact with her. Given that this is a ranged fight that would be difficult but possibe.

 

[AquaWaifu]

@Burning

A restrained shinobi would bother to use replacement jutsu cause it helps distract said captor longer than if they suddenly disappeared via shunshun or whatever it was called jutsu.

Tatsumaki could easily lift up Madara and any number of clones he makes and BFR them into space.


You keep using Replacement Jutsu as if its a teleport, but it gets used less and less as the speed gap between opponents is made insignifcant. Its a BASIC genin level jutsu that stopped having any real effect after a certain point in the series. its FTE movemetn not teleportation, otherwise it would be seen as vastly superior to Flying Thunder God from Minato. Why both putting seals on say a kunai to throw and teleport yourself behind someone when you could just...throw the kunai.


Madara's mind manip likely wouldnt work as well you propose as Tatsumaki is a psychic, which is a mental ability, I'd imagine she has rather good mental fortitude.


Madara creates a dome, okay. Tatsumaki was able to unearth the entire Monster Asscoiation base, a little wood dome (and don you dare say he'd be able to create near city sized dome.) is not going to stop him being lifted into the air and launched.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

@Damage3245

Okay. How did she get weakened in the first place?

Yes, I know this. What I'm trying to say is that it's unknown how far into space she would throw Madara. It can easily be barely into space allowing Madara to come back or far into space like another planet or something. We don't know how far. And Madara won't die in space since he's already dead. He might be able to make it back if that happens.

Any proof that Tatsumaki can do so with her barriers? It'll blind her even if it's just for a split second which could be decisive in a match. There are a number of things Madara could do like using chains to bind and restrict her.

Well, no matter how casually she destroys them (and wood clones don't get destroyed as easily as shadow clones as they can last for some time), Madara can keep on creating them while Tatsumaki gets tired.

I didn't mean to convey that it would last long. He can use that time to travel underground. And shinobi can suppress their chakra to avoid detection. So that's an option for Madara. Wood clones can essentially fuse with their surroundings. Which means they could do that and watch how Tatsumaki's powers work and transfer information to Madara.

It would still work especially when they make eye contact which is surely going to happen.

@AquaWaifu

Distract how? I doubt they would be distracted by someone leaving a log of wood in their place which they must have seen multiple times.

His clones can fuse with their surroundings. She's not BFRing that.

I haven't even thought of teleportation once since we began arguing about this. Now if it's FTE movement, why wasn't Jiraiya able to see Pain somehow escaping from Needle Jizo and a log somehow appearing in his place? When Sasuke used ninja wire to bind Orochimaru to the tree, the wires connected to the tree didn't break or anything. Orochimaru was much stronger than Sasuke, if he had indeed physically moved his body, why didn't the wires break or something? And you can't say something like Orochimaru somehow deceived Sasuke that he was there or something because Sasuke's subsequent Katon affected him. I myself am confused about this which is part of the reason I asked Damage for us to drop the issue.

What? Sorry but this isn't true. Just because you make use of mental attacks or you specialize in things like that doesn't give you resistance to it. For example, because a psychologist specializes in mental related issues doesn't mean they are resistant to it. Those Star Wars characters like Darth Vader are much stronger than Tatsumaki and can casually mind rape millions of people. Nobody's giving them resistance to it. Itachi specializes in genjutsu. Doesn't mean he has resistance to it. Madara, Obito and Kaguya can use a planetary mind manipulation jutsu. It doesn't mean one of that scale or even less wouldn't affect them. Either she has shown resistance to it by someone on Madara's level or it doesn't get used here or factor in this match.

 

[Damage3245]

> Okay. How did she get weakened in the first place?

Recieved multiple injuries to the head when fighting multiple Dragon-level monsters.

> Yes, I know this. What I'm trying to say is that it's unknown how far into space she would throw Madara. It can easily be barely into space allowing Madara to come back or far into space like another planet or something. We don't know how far. And Madara won't die in space since he's already dead. He might be able to make it back if that happens.

It's true that Madara won't die but if it far enough out of the atmosphere then he will be gone. Tatsumaki can reach into space far enough to drag meteors down to the planet, so her range goes that far at least.

> Any proof that Tatsumaki can do so with her barriers? It'll blind her even if it's just for a split second which could be decisive in a match. There are a number of things Madara could do like using chains to bind and restrict her.

She can create a tornado around her; that'll sweep up pretty much all the dust / ash / pollen in her way.

> Well, no matter how casually she destroys them (and wood clones don't get destroyed as easily as shadow clones as they can last for some time), Madara can keep on creating them while Tatsumaki gets tired.

Until she BFR's him.

Wood clones can fuse with wood, right? Any scans of them fusing with the ground itself?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Why didn't she just destroy them? She should be much stronger than Dragon level threats.

I'm still not sure but okay. I still don't see BFR working.

Think of it like Kirigakure no Jutsu. Users of Wind Release can easily blow the mist away but the time they use to do so can easily be exploited. Even Madara can do something like that with his gunbai, but it would still take time no matter how little. And his wood clones can easily get behind her and use the pollen. She wouldn't think to create a tornado when she doesn't know people are behind her.

Don't see BFR working. On top of replacing himself with wood clones, he could try to pull her towards him with Bansho Tenn'in and make her suffer a lapse in concentration. Or just use Mind Manipulation on her.

Wood clones can come out of the user's body or the ground. So they should be able to do so. There's vegetation on the ground anyway so they can fuse with it or just travel underground and suppress their chakra.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

It basically comes down to; can Zombie Madara resist being crushed / having his limbs broken / having his neck snapped via telekinesis and being launched into space.

 

[AquaWaifu]

It basically comes down to; can Zombie Madara resist being crushed / having his limbs broken / having his neck snapped via telekinesis and being launched into space.

I wonderr if his regen could work while Tatsumaki is continually applying telekinesis, in the manga the Edo Zombies I believe always regenerated from single attacks, not like a continued assault, and I mean like more than a minute of just taking damage to one area.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. So if a character with Low-High Regenerationn gets attacked continuously, his Regenerationn will somehow stop?

 

[Damage3245]

More like, if Madara is crushed into a ball and held in place via telekinesis, would he regenerate?

 

[AquaWaifu]

it will given her AP and her ability to BFR him.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

More like, if Madara is crushed into a ball and held in place via telekinesis, would he regenerate?

Or Madara could just place her under genjutsu. Still seeing no proper counter to that.

Well, I think I'm done here. I've said everything I can say and voted for Madara and I don't want to continue to repeating myself.

 

[Damage3245]

Eye contact is not a guarantee in a fight, and Tatsumaki fights from a distance.

 

[Spartan1204]

I give it to Tatsumaki for reasons above and to answer the gas question, in OVA 5 Tatsumaki contained a whole explosion including the gas. Tatsumaki is able to detect the location of her sister at almost any distance. During the MA arc, Tatsumaki was able to detect the presence of every human, even King's and the kid's, and make sure they were safe when she flipped the Monster Association HQ. Mind manipulation isn't likely to work because Tatsumaki can literally redirect the signal of other psychics.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Huh? They're guaranteed to look at each other at the start of the fight. They'll also look at each other during the battle. Fighting from range doesn't mean you can't look at your opponent.

Like I've said before, even fodder from different verses can sense energy like that. And Madara can suppress his chakra. And how's she going to sense Madara's clones that fuse with their surroundings again? Everybody's still talking about BFR when Madara can replace himself with his clones o use Bansho Tenn'in on her. Redirecting the signals of psychics that are City to Mountain level isn't impressive. I'm not even sure how that gives her resistance to Mind Manipulation. Something like this should have been on her page if it was true.

Also, Madara has been upgraded to Large Island level so no AP advantage for Tatsumaki. Meaning Madara doesn't have to spam attacks to do damage to her.

 

[Spartan1204]

Her aura manipulation/psychic deflection has shown to only be close to ineffective if the source of the aura or psychic signals has limit breaking or close to limit breaking will. Even against someone with a close to limiter breaker will like Garou, she can still hold him in place for a bit while she's severely damaged. She also lifted Saitama despite his limiter breaking will and her head was still recovering. Deflecting mind manipulation signals from Madara should be no problem.

How would the clones fusing with the surroundings stop her from sensing them?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

bump

 

[Lord_Hades_Prince_Of_Darkness]

Madara can make multiple susanoo in Edo mode. I think he made 5 or 6 when he was facing the kage.


Also Madara with his would style can make pollen from flowers that can knock you unconscious.

I will go with Madara.

 

[AquaWaifu]

It has already been stated that Tatsumaki's barrier can make that pollen effectively useless.

 

[Meosos]

I think Tornado takes this. Revived Madara with Sage Mode (6-C Version) cant fly and she can BFR him quiet easily. His perfect Susanoo is Mountain level if I remember correctly and she has Large Island Level with casual telekinesis. His Taijutsu is useless, like his fire attacks against her barriers. The only way he could kill her is with Tsukuyomi (If its usefull against a telepath) and Limbo.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

vote 7:7

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

next vote determines the winner

 

[AquaWaifu]

DId I put a vote in this?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

yep

 

[AquaWaifu]

wait so is this Edo Madra or Revived cause I see votes here for and against him usign different versions of him.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

edo

 

[AquaWaifu]

Im thinking of making a thread to dispute how the Replacement technique works in Naruto as that stupid technqiue has been quite the issue here. Cause how it stands some say he could use it to get around Tatsumaki's BFR, and others say it doesnt work in that manner.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

in my own opinion i can see it working once, but not something madara can do constantly . but my OP doesnt matter here

 

[AquaWaifu]

in my own opinion i can see it working once, but not something madara can do constantly . but my OP doesnt matter here

I'll say this, I could see him doing it once, than she gets fed up with his Jutsu and BFRs the whole damn place they're fighting in to keep from being able to get away. I could see her being able to potentially do that.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

well we just need one more voter to end the debate now

 

[Spartan1204]

That's not how it works, the winner has to win by 3 votes.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

well then this ^