Talion (Shadow of Mordor) vs Yoriichi Tsugikuni (Kimetsu No Yaiba)

[Naito-desu]

• Speeds are equalized
• Both are 8-A, Talion in his first key
• Both have their standard equipment
• Battle takes place in the ashen fields of Mordor
• Both start in close range; Yoriichi is bloodlusted

Talion:

Yoriichi:

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So what stops Talion from just Teleporting his Sword through Yoriichi's Throat and Decapatating him with Shadow Strike?

 

[Naito-desu]

Is that his opening move? Also I'm pretty sure Yoriichi has precog, as well as passive fear aura/stat amps so he should be much faster than Talion

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

His Opening Move is usually to try and attack them from Stealth, but if he's spotted before hand then there's no reason he shouldn't use Shadow Strike.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Is that his opening move? Also I'm pretty sure Yoriichi has precog, as well as passive fear aura/stat amps so he should be much faster than Talion

Yes. It's an extremely common starting move. Along with mindhax that scales to the thousands and has a few meters of range. Or a time slow with his bow and arrow into a headshot.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Uruk are capable of parrying Shadow Strike with no damage through skill, and the non-fodders can avoid receiving critical damage from it as long as their health is not low.


One of the cinematics depicts Shadow Strike as a high-speed spectral dash (time stamp 0:52):


Which is consistent with the Nazgûl and Dark Talion versions of Shadow Strike being dodged and parried in cutscenes and gameplay.
Yoriichi would be able to replicate the same thing with Thunder Breathing, and with precog/information analysis he would be able to figure out the most efficient way to kill Talion, especially that he is bloodlusted.

After analyzing his opponent's body (who he praised the speed of), he custom-made a twelve-part combo that flows like a dance on the spot, which his opponent couldn't defend against. One of the techniques involves creating an afterimage that tricks sight regardless of how good it is, and it is proven to work even when the opponent is massively faster.

Branding can be resisted with will power, and this applies to Uruk; the average human is properly more likely to resist it than the average Uruk, let alone Yoriichi. The number of people that can get branded doesn't reflect the potency of the mindhax, since it is applied individually, and Talion direct touch to attempt it.
I believe it is more important to discuss whether Talion can resist passive bloodlusted fearhax. Even getting stunned for a bit can be a death sentence.

 

[Naito-desu]

Bump

 

[Naito-desu]

Bump

 

[Axxtentacle]

Finally getting back to this.

Uruk are capable of parrying Shadow Strike with no damage through skill, and the non-fodders can avoid receiving critical damage from it as long as their health is not low.

So skill in-verse lets people deflect teleporting a sword into their throat :cringe:

Guess Talion outskills teleportation

One of the cinematics depicts Shadow Strike as a high-speed spectral dash (time stamp 0:52):

That's just also not what's shown in gameplay, so not sure why this means anything.

Which is consistent with the Nazgûl and Dark Talion versions of Shadow Strike being dodged and parried in cutscenes and gameplay.

Dark Talion still has normal shadow strike? Not sure what you're saying there.

Yoriichi would be able to replicate the same thing with Thunder Breathing, and with precog/information analysis he would be able to figure out the most efficient way to kill Talion, especially that he is bloodlusted.

Well wouldn't just passive fear hax be an insta-stomp anyway? Lmao

After analyzing his opponent's body (who he praised the speed of), he custom-made a twelve-part combo that flows like a dance on the spot, which his opponent couldn't defend against.

One of the techniques involves creating an afterimage that tricks sight regardless of how good it is

This is extremely NLF btw

, and it is proven to work even when the opponent is massively faster.

What is this "works on people massively faster" bs you've been trying to push? The obvious solution is that they're just not massively faster if someone can keep up with them.

Branding can be resisted with will power, and this applies to Uruk; the average human is properly more likely to resist it than the average Uruk, let alone Yoriichi.

"the average human is properly more likely to resist it than the average Uruk"

Remember when Uruks were easier to mindhax and it wasn't powerful captains with effectively supernatural willpower that allowed them to resist mindhax that allows someone to control thousands of Uruk with? Me too.

The number of people that can get branded doesn't reflect the potency of the mindhax,

This is literally how mindhax potency works tho

since it is applied individually, and Talion direct touch to attempt it.

Direct touch? Did you ever actually play the game?

I believe it is more important to discuss whether Talion can resist passive bloodlusted fearhax. Even getting stunned for a bit can be a death sentence.

No lmao it's an instantaneous stomp because of fearhax. Talion resists Sauron's mindhax but he never resists any kind of fearhax.

Fearhax makes it a stomp, though a lot of the other arguments were bad.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Also this is like incon at-best cause of type 4 immortality

 

[Antvasima]

I was told that this thread is a likely stomp. Should it be closed?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

So skill in-verse lets people deflect teleporting a sword into their throat :cringe:

Guess Talion outskills teleportation

Or the technique doesn't literally insta-teleports a sword into their throat, but is a dash pseudo-teleport.

That's just also not what's shown in gameplay, so not sure why this means anything.

Guess the cinematic adds more context.

Dark Talion still has normal shadow strike? Not sure what you're saying there.

His skill is still named Shadow Strike and functions similarly in gameplay.
If it was true teleportation, it would not be possible for Talion and Eltariel to block Nazgul teleportation attacks in cinematics and gameplay.

This is extremely NLF btw

Not a conclusion, but what the narrator says: "The better an opponent's vision is... the clearer they'll see your false after-image". And this is against an opponent who said that it is boring how slow Tanjiro is.

What is this "works on people massively faster" bs you've been trying to push? The obvious solution is that they're just not massively faster if someone can keep up with them.

Nope, worked on someone casually blitzing him through pure speed while holding back (repeatedly seemingly teleport in front of him, seemingly teleport away from his attack). Tanjiro is only able to keep up in movement speed defensively in short bursts, aided with precog.

This is literally how mindhax potency works tho

Mindhax potency is judged by a variety of factors. If Talion could apply a brand on thousands of Uruks at the same time, if it is stated that maintaining brands uses mental focus (which can potentially be directed at a single person), or if there weren't anti-feats of failing to brand Uruks simply because they aren't mentally broken, then an argument can be made that it is potent.

No lmao it's an instantaneous stomp because of fearhax. Talion resists Sauron's mindhax but he never resists any kind of fearhax.

If you say so. Thought Talion would have some resistance.

Also this is like incon at-best cause of type 4 immortality

It is stated that when Nazgul die their soul persist, and the souls gathers strength until they can take physical form; Talion said that this makes them banished from death (something he was described as). When Talion dies, enough time passes for new captains to establish themselves; this should be enough to qualify as knocking Talion out for one hour and likely incapitatates him for over a day.

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By the way, it is questionable that the 8-A cave earthquake calc Talion scales to wouldn't be considered localized shaking after the 2019 earthquake revision. Though content revision for the main LotR verse takes priority.

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I was told that this thread is a likely stomp. Should it be closed?

Fine by me. I assume Naitodesu and Axx are fine as well.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Or the technique doesn't literally insta-teleports a sword into their throat, but is a dash pseudo-teleport.

Or it's just a blatant teleport.

Guess the cinematic adds more context.

Or it's a stretch using non-canon material to claim a technique isn't what it is.

His skill is still named Shadow Strike and functions similarly in gameplay.
If it was true teleportation, it would not be possible for Talion and Eltariel to block Nazgul teleportation attacks in cinematics and gameplay.

blocks a sword swing that's blatantly telegraphed

Not a conclusion, but what the narrator says: "The better an opponent's vision is... the clearer they'll see your false after-image". And this is against an opponent who said that it is boring how slow Tanjiro is.

Either way, Talion's wraith vision would get around that. Still NLF, though.

Nope, worked on someone casually blitzing him through pure speed while holding back (repeatedly seemingly teleport in front of him, seemingly teleport away from his attack). Tanjiro is only able to keep up in movement speed defensively in short bursts, aided with precog.

You physically can not keep up with someone who is blitzing you. That's not how that works, the solution is that the speed gap isn't actually that big. There literally HAS to be a speed amp there.

Mindhax potency is judged by a variety of factors. If Talion could apply a brand on thousands of Uruks at the same time, if it is stated that maintaining brands uses mental focus (which can potentially be directed at a single person), or if there weren't anti-feats of failing to brand Uruks simply because they aren't mentally broken, then an argument can be made that it is potent.

But no? None of those are requirements.

If you say so. Thought Talion would have some resistance.

Nah. He just has apparent decades of resisting Sauron's mindhax, there's never any showcase of fear manip in the games, I don't think.

It is stated that when Nazgul die their soul persist, and the souls gathers strength until they can take physical form; Talion said that this makes them banished from death (something he was described as). When Talion dies, enough time passes for new captains to establish themselves; this should be enough to qualify as knocking Talion out for one hour and likely incapitatates him for over a day.

What? It's literally in the same day.

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By the way, it is questionable that the 8-A cave earthquake calc Talion scales to wouldn't be considered localized shaking after the 2019 earthquake revision. Though content revision for the main LotR verse takes priority.

---

Fine by me. I assume Naitodesu and Axx are fine as well.

But yes, it can be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

I will close this then.